Posts by Perry

51

The Great Crowd Catch 22

by Perry in

just had a two hour conversation with my father.

he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.

he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.

We are saved by grace through faith. When you identify the "grace" and the "faith" there is no contridiction. Every bible church I have ever been to deals with these issues on a fairly regular basis so that people don't deceive themselves.

Generally belief precedes actions. The one tells about the nature of the other. For instance if a person really believed that they were declared righteous by the blood covenant, they would want to partake of the emblems as Jesus commanded. They would believe him. If they do not partake, then it brings into question whether or not they really believe. Most of the time, belief precedes obedience just as unbelief precedes disobedience.

The part about being born again is strictly an action of God. It follows everything that precedes it: grace>belief>action>born again - in that order.

James is simply a "straight shooter" - Faith without works is dead. Of course, how could it be any other way? In others words, if works do not accompany belief & grace , especially over time, it calls into question the beginning of it all: belief.

Included in that belief, is denial of the old self. A person may believe Jesus intellectually, but they may still want to hang on to their old personhood. They have grown used to it even though it has caused them much pain. It is predictable, and our flesh finds some small comfort in predictableness. If a person is doing this, then they really haven't believed Jesus when he said that it would cost you all you had to follow him. In another place, he said a person would have to be willing to say good bye to his mother and father. In still another place he said that a peson would have to "lose" his life in order to find it. All of these "cost" related items are encapsulated in the term: believing upon Jesus.

I think trust is a better word to capture the biblical concept. Think of jumping out of an airplane with a parachute, and then flapping your arms to try and slow yourself down. Similarly, our works were never designed to get the job done. However, our belief and trust is what unleashes God in our life by means of the blood of Christ, our personal sin payment.

The part that is of most concern to us with a JW background, is that the works that we read about among believers in the NT are not from us. They are God generated by the new spirit acquired at the new birth. Eph 2: 10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works

17

AnointedJW Response On Df'ing

by metatron in

jw
friends

https://anointedjw.org/qr_august_2014.html#qr_082914c.

so, they are claiming that these new partakers associated with their site are not being df'd.. i understand that two witness guys run this site.

can anyone confirm that they are not df'd?.

Perry

Interesting site to say the least.

51

The Great Crowd Catch 22

by Perry in

just had a two hour conversation with my father.

he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.

he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.

Perry

That's right QB. The annointed get declared righteous, get immortality (not just ever-lasting life) they get to rule with Jesus. All the while you get to prove yourself for another THOUSAND YEARS. - That is according to the WT.

The reality is that no one is declared righteous outside of the new covenant, probably from Pentecost forward. Whether you are a church age believer or a tribulation saint (believer) both are declared righteous by the blood of the lamb .....period. However, both get to avoid a personal judgement.... even though church age believers are the bride of Christ and the tribulation saints enter the kingdom on earth.

The part about avoiding a personal judgment is not to be discounted though. That is the main point. The other stuff is trivial by comparison.

51

The Great Crowd Catch 22

by Perry in

just had a two hour conversation with my father.

he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.

he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.

Perry

Blondie,

Thank you VERY MUCH for that research. I put the quotes you found and the one I had from 2011 in a date-ordered table form so it would be easier to understand the Evolution of Watchtower Salvation.

It is clear to me that the Watchtower is just utterly making stuff up as they go along. There are no scriptural supports for all the different kinds of righteousness and cleaness that they try to differentiate . They are simply distinctions WITHOUT a difference. But, somehow these distinctions supposedly gives the rank and file permission to reject the blood covenant for full forgiveness of sins.

It is clear to me that they are trying as hard as they can to keep people from being part of the blood covenant that washes a person clean from their sins. It makes no difference whatsoever the destination of the annointed (church age saints) or the earthly bound tribulation survivors. Revelation 7 makes it clear that the Great Crowd washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. There is ONLY one way to access the blood of the lamb, and that is through the New Covenant (See Mt. 26: 27,28) which JESUS SAYS IS SPECIFICALLY for the "forgiveness of sins", and NOT rulership positions per se.

Declared Righteous?

Publication

Quote

Position

Sept. 1954

NO

w54 9/1 p. 522 Declared Righteous by Jehovah

In view of what we have seen about justification or being declared righteous by faith as being only a means to an end, so that certain ones might be eligible to membership in Christ’s body and share heavenly glory with him, it follows that all whose destiny is the earth, the foregoing ones mentioned, would have no need of having righteousness imputed to them.

The Great Crowd is not declared righteous … period

Mostly No

it-1 p. 606 Declare Righteous

The “great crowd,” who survive the “great tribulation,” are not yet declared righteousfor life—that is, as worthy of the right to everlasting life on earth. They need to continue partaking of the “fountains of waters of life,” as guided by the Lamb, Christ Jesus. They will need to do this during the Millennial Reign of Christ. (Re 7:17; 22:1, 2) If they prove loyal to Jehovah through a final test at the end of the thousand years, they will have their names permanently retained in God’s book of life, Jehovah thus declaring, or acknowledging, that they finally are righteous in the complete sense.

The Great Crowd is not declared righteous “for life”. This implies that there may be another kind of interim righteousness that the Great Crowd can partially have.

They are declared righteous in a “complete sense” after the millennium reign.

July 1996

No, as Sons

Yes, as friends

w96 7/1 p. 20 par. 5 The Triumph of True Worship Draws Near

The great crowd do not serve God in the condition pictured by the inner priestly courtyard. They are not declared righteous for the purpose of being God’s adopted, spiritual sons. (Romans 8:1, 15) Nevertheless, by exercising faith in Jesus’ ransom, they have a clean standing before Jehovah. They are declared righteous with the purpose of being his friends.

The Great Crowd is declared righteous as “God’s Friends”

Feb 1998

No, as Sons

Yes, as Friends

But not by the blood covenant

w98 2/1 p. 20 par. 7 The Other Sheep and the New Covenant

For the other sheep, being declared righteous as God’s friends allows them to embrace the hope of everlasting life in a paradise earth—either by surviving Armageddon as part of the great crowd or through the ‘resurrection of the righteous.’ (Acts 24:15)

The Great Crowd is declared righteous as “God’s Friends”, but not by the blood covenant of Jesus. It is now by either surviving the Great Tribulation or the “resurrection of righteousness”

May 2002

Yes, by the blood

No, as Sons

Yes as friends & survivors

w02 5/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers

They are spiritually clean, having “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Hence, they are declared righteous with a view to becoming friends of God and of surviving the great tribulation. (James 2:23, 25) In many ways, they are like proselytes in Israel who submitted to the Law covenant and worshiped along with the Israelites

Here the Great Crowd is allowed to be spiritually clean by the blood of the lamb. But they are only declared righteous as friends and/or by surviving the Great Tribulation. They still are not given a righteous standing by the blood of Jesus.

June 2008

Yes, by the ransom

No, by the blood covenant

And, only as friends and survivors

w08 6/15 p. 29 Highlights From the Letter to the Romans ***DECLARED RIGHTEOUS—HOW?

… they are being declared righteous by [God’s] undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom…Through faith in “one act of justification,” both anointed Christians and members of the “great crowd” of “other sheep” can be “declared righteous”—the former for life in heaven as joint heirs with Christ and the latter as God’s friends, with a view to surviving “the great tribulation.”

The great crowd is allowed to be declared righteous by the ransom, but apparently not by the blood covenant and then, only as friends and / or survivors of the great tribulation

June 2011

No

&

Yes

W11 6/15 p. 15

These have not received “the free gift of righteousness” with heavenly life in view “through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.”… The gift such ones receive —friendship with God—differs from “the free gift” the anointed receive. Yet, it certainly is a gift that they accept with deep gratitude.

The great crowd doesn’t get the free gift of righteousness; they get friendship only. However the image caption on the same page reads that the great crowd is declared righteous

51

The Great Crowd Catch 22

by Perry in

just had a two hour conversation with my father.

he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.

he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.

Perry

Thank you Searcher. I really appreciate the research you did, I really do. I will study out the scriptures you cite on point 3 a little later.

51

The Great Crowd Catch 22

by Perry in

just had a two hour conversation with my father.

he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.

he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.

Perry

objective truth,

Those examples were his main argument to explain why he didn't need the New Covenant to be declared righteous.... because those guys were declared righteous without the New Covenant.

I explained that from the time of Moses on, there was an agreement in place for the foregiveness of sins through the blood of animals, which pictured Jesus in the future. Prior to that, believing God ALONE was enough to declare someone righteous ("Abraham believed God and it was credited unto him as righteousness")

Now that Jesus has come, why he wants to ignore his 3 time command to be born again and to instead believe anonymous watchtower writers is just without foundation of any kind, other than someone told him to do it (the wt.).

51

The Great Crowd Catch 22

by Perry in

just had a two hour conversation with my father.

he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.

he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.

Perry

I know this. My heart has been so heavy, I finally wept to let some of the pain out. The Enemy is ruthless.

51

The Great Crowd Catch 22

by Perry in

just had a two hour conversation with my father.

he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.

he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.

Perry

Yep, there it is - three times

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. - John 3

32

Please help....in a dilemma..

by crazyhorse in

please help with this: when i was in college, there was a lot of talk about university and how all who pursue that are wasting their time and all that.

even before going to uni, there was a lot of pressurr on me concerning my decision.

during that time, two elders sat with me for appointment as ms and asked me if i have freedom of speech in the org since i'm going to uni and i said no.

Perry

crazyhourse, I made the same decision and have not regretted it. I have many other regrets, but this is not one of them. I am a 4th gen born-in.

51

The Great Crowd Catch 22

by Perry in

just had a two hour conversation with my father.

he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.

he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.

Perry

Thanks for the quote Fernando. I don't know if that would have helped. I don't think he wants a free gift. It sounds like he really wants to work a thousand years for it.

I doctored this page out of a watchtower some time ago to illustrate the insanity of the Watchtower writers. Notice how the caption next to the picture inset at the top says one thing, and the first sentence on paragraph 20 says the opposite! This one page captures the "convoluted morass of the Watchtower two class system" like no other that I have found:

http://bibleready.org/uploads/WT_6-15-2011_PG_15_Rebuttal_Version.pdf (Save to your own computer if you wish)

I was exhausted after the conversation, and very sad. My father kept repeating that I wasn't able to get the "big picture".

Thanks for the support; thank you very, very much.

Crazy Guy,

Jesus also told Nicodemus that one must be born again to see the kingdom of god, he said it 3 times.

I didn't know that it was three times. That is amazing. I may use that in the future. I can't think of another instance where Jesus repeated something 3 times. Thank you.