The quote about Cyprian is from the source I quoted, not from me. Yet still, at only 100 to 150 years out from the original autographs, it would have been hard for him to introduce such a thing unchallenged. There are no records of such a critique. Access to the original was certainly possible at that time.
Posts by Perry
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114Early Evidence for 1 John 5: 7
by Perry initalic 4th and 5th century.
629 in the 14th century.
429 in the 14th century (margin).
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114
Early Evidence for 1 John 5: 7
by Perry initalic 4th and 5th century.
629 in the 14th century.
429 in the 14th century (margin).
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Perry
Getting back to the topic......
Among the clearest texts in the Bible that show that Christ was both man and God is 1 Timothy 3:16. The Authorised Version translated this as:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 as cited by Church Fathers
- John William Burgon (1813 - 1888)
- The Greek text
- Ignatius (ca 50 - between 98 and 117
- Dionysius of Alexandria (ca. 190 - 265 AD)
- Didymus of Alexandria or Didymus the Blind (c. 309/314 - 398)
- Diodorus of Tarsus (- 392)
- Gregory of Nazianzus (c 325 - 389)
- Gregory of Nyssa (c 335 – probably 395)
- John Chrysostom (c. 347 - 407)
- Cyril of Alexandria (c. 376 - 444)
- Theodoret of Cyrus (c. 393 – c. 460)
- Unknown author (430)
- Unknown author, 5th century
- Euthalius (5th century)
- Conclusion
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114
Early Evidence for 1 John 5: 7
by Perry initalic 4th and 5th century.
629 in the 14th century.
429 in the 14th century (margin).
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Perry
Chris- No, Rabbis interpret the Servant in Isaiah to be the Jewish people.
That's somewhat like saying that drowned people don't get haircuts anymore. They don't because they are no longer alive. It is simply a statement of the obvious. Countless Jews have become Christian from reading and BELIEVING.
The ones that view the Servant as Jesus are now Christians, not Rabbis.
Is. 53:
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.10 Yet it was the Lord ’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.And in Zech. 13:6 the Jews that are left over after the battle of Armageddon will once again be able to approach Jesus and say:
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; ....and one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
He's coming back to finish what he started as sure are the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
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114
Early Evidence for 1 John 5: 7
by Perry initalic 4th and 5th century.
629 in the 14th century.
429 in the 14th century (margin).
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Perry
designs,
I think it matters a lot to some people. This information was never presented to me as a Jehovah's witness. That was before the internet of course.
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114
Early Evidence for 1 John 5: 7
by Perry initalic 4th and 5th century.
629 in the 14th century.
429 in the 14th century (margin).
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Perry
Early manuscript evidence that exists for I John 5:7,8
Early church writers that used it:
Cyprian 200 - 258 AD. "The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one;' and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one'." If Cyprian quotes I John 5:7 from his Bible in 200• 258 AD, it must be a valid reading. His Bible was copied from an older manuscript containing this verse.
Cyprian lived only 100 years after John wrote the book of I John. Cyprian would have had access to the original manuscript to check.
• Priscillian 350 AD, a Spanish bishop quotes I John 5:7,8.
• Idacius Clarus 360 AD, who opposed Priscillian quotes it.
• Varimadum 380 AD.
• Cassiodorus 485 AD.
• Cassian 435 AD.
• Victor Vita 489 AD.
• Jerome 450 AD.
• Fulgentius 533 AD.
• Ps. Vigilius 484 AD.
• Ansbert 660 AD.Early bible versions that include it:
Old Syriac 170 AD.
Old Latin 200 AD, in North Africa and Italy.
Italic 4th and 5th century. – Italic • Monacensis 7th century.
Italic • Speculum 9th century.
Latin Vulgate 4th, 5th century.Greek miniscule manuscripts that include it:
• 221 in the 10th century.(variant).
• 88 in the 12th century.(margin).
• 629 in the 14th century.(Ottobanianus)
• 429 in the 14th century (margin).
• 636 in the 15th century. (margin).
• 61 in the 16th century.(Codex Montfortianus)
• 918 in the 16th century. (an Escorial ms).
• 2318 (a Bucharest manuscript). -
48
A few questions for believers
by keyser soze inwhen confronted with all of the inconsistencies and atrocities of the bible, many believers invariably claim that they don't base their faith in christ on what's written in the bible.
so what is the basis then, if not scripture?.
and please don't tell me "the lord has revealed himself to me".
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Perry
Oh, and you insult everyone that didn't get some kind of answer from Jesus. They didn't fully believe, trust, or didn't do it exclusively enough. Thanks for the insult, Perry. Up yours too.
OTWO,
That's not me saying those things are required. Need I provide scriptural references? I think that you as a former elder do not need that. We all know where those scriptures are. Christianity IS OFFENSIVE, not just insulting. Christianity is utterly at war with our natural man, our very initiative to preserve ourself. It tries to give us something for free, when our natural bent is to work for it, instinctively.
Everything we get in this life is usually worked for. Then God comes along and says, see you can't do it; here let me give it to you. Then, everyone who still wants to work a thousand years for in it "the new system" has a conniption fit. (my JW friends)
Sin was not purchased for us, we got that damned thing through one act of disbelief, one act of distrust. Salvation from moral judgment is just the opposite; you can't work for it and it is acquired through one act of singular belief and trust.
That makes sense to my mind, but my flesh is utterly at war with that concept because it means I'm not in control.... even though I know that the control that I think I have, is just an illusion.
As a child, I could accept gifts. Christianity attacks our perceived goodness (attacks peer pressure too) we think we have as adults, which prevents our accepting a free gift..... for some.
Not me, not anymore. I have seen the power and nature of God after wasting years in sin and WT idolatry... through one act of singular belief and trust. Jesus asks us to torch our bridges FIRST, then follow him. That's the offer.
He has a right to ask this in my opinion after what he willingly did. I did it (after a 1st & 2nd try) and have experienced victory, after victory, after victory. Though I march in the Triumph, I am not the Warrior. But the victories are none the less sweet.
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Jehovah's Witness disfellowshipped for questions, joins Catholic Church to "feel Love"
by Balaamsass2 inharber become a fan.
yogi, contemplative, writer.
producer of radio program radical spirituality and sacred activism.
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Perry
Recently I witnessed about 20 children from our parish taking their first communion. My 7-year old inner child wept as Father Seamus delivered the homily, stating and re-stating in every possible configuration, that these children were loved - by their faith community, their parents, and God - and that there was nothing, nothing, they could ever do to separate themselves from this love. The complete opposite of what I had heard about God and Love and Faith as a child .
I can certainly identify with the need for love in children and as children. But, I could not help but notice how the words "Jesus Christ" were ENTIRELY missing from the narrative.
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JW wife likes watching the 700 club
by goingthruthemotions ini have noticed lately that my wife has been watching the 700 club..i asked her if she liked it?
she said yes because it is positive.. i then agreed with her and left it there.
(note: i never hear anything positive at the meetings).
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Perry
That is interesting.
We will just be in agrement right now that she will see TTATT & TTAJC
Where two are in agreement .....
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48
A few questions for believers
by keyser soze inwhen confronted with all of the inconsistencies and atrocities of the bible, many believers invariably claim that they don't base their faith in christ on what's written in the bible.
so what is the basis then, if not scripture?.
and please don't tell me "the lord has revealed himself to me".
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Perry
Mad Giant,
Are not you basically asking if Jesus is really just a Copy-Cat Savior Myth "borrowed" from other Gods?
I read this years ago and it helped me to see things in a more scholarly way.
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History of the church/Christianity, etc.
by Joe Grundy ini have learned a great deal from some of the very erudite posters on this site (thank you).. for many years i've been interested in the history of the development of christianity, not only from its earliest days but through the reformation, etc., and through to the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries when denominations, sects, cults took off in all directions like exploding fireworks.. i was aware, in broad terms, of luther, calvin and the development of protestantism from which so many denominations and sects (including jws) arose.
i was vaguely aware of the schism (1,000 years ago) between the western (catholic) and eastern (orthodox) churches and was tangentially interested as to why it happened (if the 'east' was the home of christianity, how come the 'west' disagreed with it?).
i was quite interested to read, while living in cyprus, a greek orthodox english language bible which had a large section in the back about the schism.
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Perry
Here is a page from my website that deals with Christian History, both Apostate and Biblical.
The book featured there is quite revealing in tracing bible Christians from the first century to the present.
This chart may also be helpful.