Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

Perry

the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead - Eccl. 9:3

If this is literally saying that all human hearts are filled with evil, then it is equally true that all of us are suffering from madness until the day we die. But that is not what the text really means. Even if it were literal, it still doesn’t say humans inherited sin from Adam.

Yes it does mean what it says. It is perfectly clear. All sin is illogical because it is ultimately harmful, whether acknowledged or not. Sin is madness. And of course it is inherited because it is describing the "sons of men" as a group. If not from ancestors, from where then does it come?

Consider these comments:

Wickedness is spoken of in other places in the book of Psalms, as a thing that belongs to men, as of the human race, as sons of men. Thus, in Psa. 4:2, “O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? How long will ye love vanity?” etc. Psa. 57:4, “I lie among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.” Psa. 58:1, 2, “Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? Do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weight out the violence of your hands in the earth.” Our author mentioning these places, says (p. 105. note), “There was a strong party in Israel disaffected to David’s person and government, and sometimes he chooseth to denote them by the sons or children of men.” But it would have been worth his while to have inquired, Why the psalmist should choose to denote the worst men in Israel by this name? Why he should choose thus to disgrace mankind, as if the compellation of sons of men most properly belonged to such as were of the vilest character, and as if all the sons of men, even every one of them, were of such a character, and none of them did good; no, not one? Is it not strange, that the righteous should not be thought worthy to be called sons of men, and ranked with that noble race of beings, who are born into the world wholly right and innocent? It is a good, easy, and natural reason, why he chooseth to call the wicked, sons of men, as a proper name for them, That by being of the sons of men, or of the corrupt, ruined race of mankind, they come by their depravity. And the psalmist himself leads us to this very reason, Psa. 58, “Do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men? yea, in heart ye work wickedness ye weigh out the violence of your hands. The wicked are estranged from the womb,” etc. Of which I shall speak more by and by.

Agreeable to these places is Pro. 21:8, “The way of man is froward and strange; but as for the pure, his work is right.” He that is perverse in his walk, is here called by the name of man, as distinguished from the pure: which I think is absolutely unaccountable, if all mankind by nature are pure, and perfectly innocent, and all such as are froward and strange in their ways, therein depart from the native purity of all mankind. The words naturally lead us to suppose the contrary; that depravity and perverseness properly belong to mankind as they are naturally, and that a being made pure, is by an after-work, by which some are delivered from native pollution, and distinguished from mankind in general.

To these things agree Jer. 17:5, 9. In verse 5, it is said, “Cursed is he that trusteth in man.” And in verse 9, this reason is given, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” What heart is this so wicked and deceitful? Why, evidently the heart of him, who, it was said before, we must not trust; and that is MAN. It alters not the case as to the present argument, whether the deceitfulness of the heart here spoken of, be its deceitfulness to the man himself, or to others. So - Ecc. 9:3, “Madness is in the heart of the sons of men, while they live.”...

How strange is it, that we should have such descriptions, all over the Bible, of MAN, and the SONS OF MEN! Why should man be so continually spoken of as evil, carnal, perverse, deceitful, and desperately wicked, if all men are by nature as perfectly innocent, and free from any propensity to evil, as Adam was the first moment of his creation, all made right, as our author would have us understand Ecc. 7:29? Why, on the contrary, is it not said, at least as often, and with equal reason, that the heart of man is right and pure; that the way of man is innocent and holy; and that he who savors true virtue and wisdom, savors the things that be of men? Yea, and why might it not as well have been said, the Lord looked down from heaven on the sons of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and did seek after God; and they were all right, altogether pure, there was none inclined to do wickedness, no, not one?

41

Need the hardest evidence possible that humans have lived for more than 6000 years

by ILoveTTATT2 in

jw
friends

since coming out of the witnesses, i have gone through a transformation in thought and in mind.

i started with the usual: i thought that jesus was god.

then i investigated more about the bible and thought that the bible was not true, given the many contradictions, failed prophecies, etc.. then i investigated evolution and read lots and now i accept evolution and natural selection as things that are true.. now, i need to make my dad rethink everything.

Perry

I recently read a fascinating an illuminating article from a respected science journal that explained how life was generated by rocks at:

http://www.nature.com/news/how-life-emerged-from-deep-sea-rocks-1.12109

"How life emerged from deep-sea rocks" - Nature magazine

Adam & Eve?

35

We're All Going To Die

by Garrett in

jw
friends

life has been busy, but i am now on 2 weeks vacation which allowed me some thinking room.

and here's what's been on my mind.. we're all going to die.

no matter what we do, our fate is sealed.

Perry

Worthy questions to ponder for sure. Hope your vacation is relaxing.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

Perry

And Isaiah 64: 6 ?

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

This cannot be talking about someone else because it says "we all".

Notice that it is our attempts at righteousness, not just our sins, that are likened as filthy rags.

Certainly, attempts at righteousness is a worthy endeavor for many practical reasons, but compared to an utterly holy, good and righteous God who requires the death penalty for sin, it is not enough to merit eternal salvation and remembrance. The ancient animal sacrifices were an attempt by God to circumvent the death penalty for sin. The sin was placed upon the animal, and it was killed in place of the sinner, so that the penalty for sin(s) was carried out, even if vicariously.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. - Lev. 17:11

the soul who sins shall die - Ez. 18:4

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

Perry

My ancestors were Abraham

Then do as Abraham did - Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. Gen. 15:6

All who believe God are Abraham's' seed.

It cost me my whole family, culture, and all my friends to believe God. I never thought that I could do it. Alone, it was way beyond me. Tens years removed from that decision, I regret that I had only one beloved family and culture to give up in order to believe God.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

Perry

You are doing it again.

Of course I am promoting the Scriptures as the authority as opposed to opinion.

I've stated clearly that Jews have never understood those texts as Christains do.

The Jews who wrote the scriptures that I posted earlier believed what they wrote. They were Jews. What they wrote was pretty clearly in support of ancestral sin. Believing what they wrote is up to each person.

These are not my own opinions, you can check for yourself with Jewish sites in the Internet or look it up in Jewish study materials.

You have found Jews that agree with your opinion. I personally know Jews who disagree with you. Neither one of these groups is the authority on Judaism. The scriptures are the final authority.

Christians wrote the New Testament, correct? Whose interpretation of the NT would be more accurate, that of Muslims or that of Christians of their own Scriptures? Who can interpret the Catechism of the Catholic Church better, Mormons or Catholics? And can't Jews have a better understanding of their own Scriptures and theology than others?

But we are not discussing the NT and neither have I quoted from it. We are discussing the OT. I can read the OT texts for myself as anyone can. I suggest you read for yourself and stop listening to others who tell your their interpretation of what you are reading. You know what obsessiveness that it took to copy those scriptures accurately for millennia...it was a lot of trouble and effort. You should read it for yourself and ask God to speak to you through them.

I pray in Hebrew, speak Hebrew, read Hebrew all through the day. I am a Jew, and our culture and theology are well known. They are not what you say they are. Those Scriptures don't mean what Gentile Christians say they do, at least not to us.

With all due respect, you mention a lot of different influences when discussing scripture, Jews, culture, theology, Christians, etc. What do you think God meant when he wrote those passages I posted? Don't you think God meant what he plainly said?

All due respect, but your beliefs are based on interpretations that don't come from Jews.

I disagree. The passages I provided seem clear enough. I think God means what he says, especially if he says the same thing several times through different prophets, in slightly different ways.

You are not free When you say Jews don't know their own Scriptures that they composed and reflects their unique culture and unique theology;

You seem to be impressed with Jewishness, culture and theology. What about the author of the scriptures? Don't each of us have a responsibility to read and hear from God in good faith, trusting in his words as the ultimate authority? Wouldn't you want your children to do the same? And don't you think those Jewish authors count as Jews too?

that is a sign that you are not free at all but bound to the same blindness loved by people who are still in the Watchtower. Ignorance is not freedom.

To the contrary, I read for myself now. I don't allow others to interpret what I am reading.

Consider:

Ps. 199: 105 - Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Ps. 119: 11 - Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Joshua 1: 8 - This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.

Nowhere in these scriptures am I told to check with my culture or religious scholars to interpret for me what God has said. God told Eve something once, and someone reinterpreted it for her. It didn't work out well for her. I didn't work out too well for me when I used to do that as a JW.

Isaiah 1: 2 & 3

Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;

for the Lord has spoken:

“Children have I reared and brought up,

but they have rebelled against me.

3 The ox knows its owner,

and the donkey its master's crib,

but Israel does not know,

my people do not understand.”

God does not want people to desire their culture's ideas about God or theology or scholars' interpretations of him. He wants people to actually desire him, as a person. He doesn't want people to make some kind of a religion out of the special relationship he is offering, he wants people to enjoy the actual relationship itself. This is why his word must trump any interpretation contrary to the plain reading of scripture.

BTW, I really like Jews ...culture an all. Even if some don't agree with me.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

Perry

I've said that before but you keep acting as if those words have never been written here on this thread by me.

Your words, are just your words. I quoted the scriptures, which is the basis for Jewish belief, to prove that original sin was clearly taught by the ancient Jewish prophets, which you claimed otherwise. Instead of looking at the scriptures, you ignored them and quoted yourself as the final authority for what all Jews believe.

Believe whatever you want, you are perfectly free to do so.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

Perry

Jews have never had either a doctrine of "Original Sin" or a doctrine of "salvation." What you are talking about is how Christians have reinterpreted (and in some cases mistranslated) certain Jewish texts.

Any person can read for themselves the Hebrew scriptures, such as the ones I listed, and decide for themselves whether or not ancestral sin is taught by the prophets.

The greatest Jewish doctrine of Salvation is the Passover, where the families that were under the lambs' blood that was splashed on the door headers and posts were passed over by the judging angel. Those families that were under the blood, experienced Salvation that night.

Likewise, the animal blood that was spilled each year in the animal sacrifices was a "death" that occurred vicariously in place of the sinner. "The wages of sin is death".

Finally, many Jews are still waiting on the "Messiah" which means:

1.
the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.
2.
a leader or savior of a particular group or cause.

The reason many Jews reject the the idea of original sin, their need for a savior, and that their prophets not only taught original sin, but bore witness to Jesus - is precisely because of the harmful effects of the exaggerated pride that original sin exacerbates.

The Jews, like everyone else, do not want God as he is; but rather as they imagine him to be. They want a God who is impressed with their good works, rather than his...... which is just another sin - idolatry.

42

Yahweh's wonderful creation

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

when i thought of myself as a christian witness of yahweh attempting to be a footstep follower of jesus, psalm 104 was one of my favourites.

if i was ever in some wonderful scenic area, psalm 104 would jump into my mind, and i'd start to praise yahweh and jesus.. but if something horrible came to mind as in the following video, i'd always think of the favourite christian escape clause, it's all because of adam's sin.

but any connection between natural animal savagery and adam's sin is never logically made in the bible.. interestingly, the supposedly inspired psalm 104 (nwt-the grey one i guess) itself says that:.

Perry

You actually have Jewish theology behind you.
In Judaism there is no doctrine of "Original Sin," and therefore none of the texts in the Hebrew Scriptures were written with this view in mind nor can be honestly read with this doctrine as an intention.

Caleb,

It is there, just undeveloped by the Jewish sages:

Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.”

Genesis 8:21 declares, “. . . the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth.” Jonathan Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: “The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence . . . so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy.”

Psalm 14:2–3 we read: “The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Here again we see unrighteousness as a property of the human race: “they have all turned aside . . . there is no one who does good.”

Job 15: 15 “Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, And the heavens are not pure in His sight; How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!”

Jeremiah 17:9 says that “the heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?” This seems to assume original sin — wickedness is a property of the human heart.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 declares a similar truth: “. . . the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts through their lives.”

Without the doctrine of Original Sin (sometimes called ancestral sin) the whole world takes on an up-side-down appearance. When we accept that none of us (including unsaved religious people like JW's) really want or desire God, only then can we correctly perceive ourselves and others.

When I was a JW, I worked hard for god. But, it wasn't for the God of the bible, it was for the god described by the Watchtower. It was for a false god who wanted my works. The God of the bible says my works are an abomination to try and use as a means for avoiding judgment.

To think of God as other than he really is - is idolatry. Only an understanding of Original Sin can make this make sense.

Another consequence of the fall of man is the so-called "curse on creation," described in Genesis 3:17-19. Since life and blessing come from God, and God inhabits the spiritual realm, earth's reduced fecundity after the fall can be thought of as a disruption of the power flow of the sustaining energy of the spiritual realm into the physical realm of our "two-storied" universe. The previously perfect "coupling" between the spiritual and the physical dimensions was reduced or disrupted by Adam's sin. Active evil also began to operate in the spiritual world as well as in the physical.

...And to Adam God said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, `You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

22

Who Really is ..... The Blood Washed Multitude (Great Crowd) ?

by Perry in

for jw's the issue has never been who the faithful and wise servant (f&ds) was.

that is just misdirection and sleight of hand.

it is plain from the context that this was obviously a rhetorical question meant for self introspection.

Perry

I agree that they are saved (declared righteous) the same way. But, they are standing before the 24 elders who represent the church. They don't get thrones apparently.

all through this book we have identified those elders as being the glorified, enraptured, immortalized, resurrected church of God, the blood-bought church of Jesus Christ. And there they are, and John sees them before the throne, seated in the presence of God, gold crowned, robed, glorified; that is His raptured church.
Now, in the presence of those elders —and they’re mentioned here in this passage, this vision we’ve just read—in the presence of those elders there is this other great multitude out of the Gentile nations of the earth, out of the kindreds, and the people, and the tongues, and the tribes. There they stand before God, and before the Lamb, and before those elders [Revelation 7:9-11]. And that was the perplexity of John [Revelation 7:13-14]. For the church and the people in God’s redeemed church are already there, resurrected, raptured, taken up into heaven, and John sees them and this group as well.

Perry

Posts by Perry

"How life emerged from deep-sea rocks" - Nature magazine

Adam & Eve?