Posts by Perry

32

God does not desire any to be destroyed?

by stuckinarut2 in

so if the idea is promoted that god doesn't want anyone to be destroyed, why does he make it so confusing for people to learn about him?.

why are there thousands of differing religions?.

why has "his only true organisation" even taught so many varying doctrines?.

Perry

Usually, the reason that God attacks is to defend His friends (those that love Him) -that is what happens at Armageddon.

Thank you for mentioning that Fisherman. The watchtower paints "Armageddon" as a sort of Judgment Day for all mankind. It most certainly is not. It is a rescue mission: "if those days were not cut short no flesh would be saved".

By the time Armageddon happens, 2/3 of the population will have already died in the wars of the Antichrist as he attempts to rule the world for a short time. By this time, the "church" (global body of child-like believers) will most likely be gone from the earth in the rapture. But, salvation does not end at the rapture.

As far as the understandability of biblical truth goes; Jesus said that we must be like children to enter his coming kingdom. It is a very simple thing that God has made in order for anyone to have eternal life:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life - John 3: 36a

This seems pretty fair to me. I didn't ask to be burdened by sin and not able to live out all my moral aspirations.

Disbelieving God (Eve) is what separated me from God; likewise a lifestyle of believing God is what saves me from my due judgment as a morally endowed creature. This is not a concern of mine anymore. I am free to turn my attention toward other more productive pursuits.

Having lived a lifestyle of believing God now for several years, I cannot imagine living any other way. While simple, it isn't easy. But, the fruit it produces is most enjoyable. WAY better than the temporary enjoyment of sin.

I came to the conclusion that believing God, required me to take a stand against the Watchtower. I discontinued my fade for this reason: To make my belief in God sure, I sent a letter to my father and two older brothers who were elders explaining my shift from belief in an organization to belief in Christ alone.

I believe that God has honored this stand and blessed me in many other ways that I would not have otherwise experienced had I just continued to fade away.

32

God does not desire any to be destroyed?

by stuckinarut2 in

so if the idea is promoted that god doesn't want anyone to be destroyed, why does he make it so confusing for people to learn about him?.

why are there thousands of differing religions?.

why has "his only true organisation" even taught so many varying doctrines?.

Perry

With God it is simple:

Paul quotes Genesis 15:6 twice.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3 KJV)

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (Galatians 3:6 KJV)

And James quotes Genesis 15:6 once.

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (James 2:23 KJV)

As Jehovah's Witnesses we chose not to believe God:

1. In that the New Covenant was only for other people

2. That we could be good enough to earn salvation

3. We made the Watchtower Oranization our savior instead of christ alone.

Salvation by faith predates the Old and New Testaments, though both are very useful in illuminating the proper object of faith, and it has never been an organization - just God.

9

One of the Most Obscene Phrases in Any Language; the Judicial Committee

by TMS in

a tribunal of religious, if not spiritual, men, whose decision can alter lives, disrupt, no, destroy, families, ruin young lives, create angst, pain, depression, hopelessness, sorrow, despair can be the job for three typically unqualified men known in jw land as the judicial committee.. my first judicial experience as a kid of 18 serving on the jc involved disfellowshipping an elderly sister for apostacy when she would not promise to quit frequenting a neighborhood christian science reading room for personal study.

my second big case involved a baptized 12 year old who allegedly stole a hot wheel from k-mart.

he admitted to nothing, answering every question with "i dunno" and was put on probation, the 60's equivalent of reproof.. in subsequent years, i "served" on committees judging accused adulterers, fornicators, thieves, gamblers, non-providers, taking up boxing, slanderers and yes, apostates, sitting also on so-called appeal committees as well.

Perry

A tribunal of religious...men, whose decision can alter lives...destroy, families, ruin young lives, create angst, pain, depression, hopelessness, sorrow, despair...the job for three...men known... as the Judicial Committee.

Hi TMS,

Thank you for your honesty. I was just wondering if you have tried to reach out to any of the people whose lives you altered and apologized?

22

Disfellowshipping Question

by Elizabeth Thompson in

jw
friends

i have been a baptized witness for about 30 years.

from the time i was a kid.

i've been the only one in my family who is baptized until 15 years later when my mother got baptized.

Perry

Hi Elizabeth,

As I continue my research, I'm reminded that Jesus is the only mediator between God and mankind - not any elder-body or governing body.

Good point. Cults do not like the fact that Jesus can read hearts. He knows if someone has faith in him alone for salvation or not. Luther and Calvin worked all this out 500 years ago when the catholic church was presenting the Pope as Christs' substitute, Mary as Co-Mediator and their organization as essential for salvation. They still officially do claim that.

It is amazing to me that with all the history available to us that the Watchtower was able to virtually copy the co-mediator concept promoted by the papacy.

Glad to see you are waking up.

Blessings to you!

21

This Thing That Was My Mother

by TimeBandit in

jw
friends

this thing that was my mother.

this thing that was my mother, so withered and blackened now,.

was once so kind and loving, but things have changed somehow.. remember when you'd hold me, and soothe my childhood fears?.

Perry

Tyranny uses this tactic because truth threatens their god-like status. Your mother wouldn't be doing this if her idol didn't say it was necessary for her survival.

Idolatry in some form is usually at the bottom of most evils.

35

Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice

by Perry in

jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.

some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.

this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.

Perry

I noticed that you didn't point out anything in particular that you found false.

Given all the evidence, it is not just overwhelming, but staggering. But, we are free moral creatures. We are perfectly free to interpret the evidence any way we choose. If there wasn't such a divergence of opinion, it would cause me to doubt the existence of free moral agency. Instead, it confirms it.

35

Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice

by Perry in

jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.

some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.

this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.

Perry

Doug,

Several extra-biblical books are cited in the Bible in addition to Enoch. I have a copy of the book of Jasher that is also cited. It is an exciting read. These are considered historical works (history books) and as such have value. It is up to each person to decide if they are inspired or not.

I personally view these works as uninspired, not infallible history books.

This link covers a number of objections similar to your own, about 4/5 of the way down.

When Dr. Thiede analyzed the fragments from Matthew’s gospel found in Egypt by what is described above as “comparative paleography,” he analyzed these fragments from the gospel of Matthew and compared them with four other well-known and reliable reference manuscripts from a commensurate and known time periods.
• Document one: 79 A.D., from the Herculaneum
• Document two: 73-74 A.D., from Masada
• Document three: 65-66 A.D., from the Egyptian town of Oxyrynchus
• Document four: 58 A.D., from Masada
The style of handwriting from the first century is substantially different from the style of handwriting, just one hundred years later. In order to date a manuscript correctly, a handwriting style that is similar to the papyrus being analyzed must be found. For this reason, the four samples above—which came from similar areas of Israel, close to the same time period, were used. The conclusions from these careful comparisons revealed that many of the letters in these very early manuscripts bore a striking similarity to the letters in the Gospel of Matthew text that Dr. Thiede analyzed.[47]
Because many of the letters and the style of writing were so close, Dr. Thiede concluded that these three papyrus fragments must have been written between the time of the crucifixion, at about 32 A.D, and the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A. D. This places the date of the writing for Matthew’s gospel at the time that he would have been alive and witnessed the actual events that are recorded in his gospel account.[48]
This means that Matthew is most certainly the true author of the gospel of Matthew.

So, if the gospels are all later additions, where are all the polemics attacking such a revision of events? The documents were in existence at the same time as the proported eyewitnesses and authors. The above mentioned fragments were likely original, or 1 gen copies.

I don't think the evidence points to anything other than the gospels being reliable recordings of actual events. Here are a number of other related links.

The Historical Record of Jesus Life from Secular Sources
Historical Evidence For Jesus Resurrection
The Overwhelming Empirical Evidence for Jesus Death and Resurrection
The New Testament Passes Every Literary Test of History
Empirical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
Empirical Integrity of the New Testament

35

Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice

by Perry in

jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.

some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.

this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.

Perry

Did/Does Jesus exist?

Seven Billion People today count time by this mans birth. He and his miraculous works are noted in works such as Josephus, The Koran, Tacitus and many more historical sources. Other evidence exists to establish his existence and resurrection as well.

But, just STOP and consider:

•More books have been written about Jesus than about any other person in history.

•Nations have used his words as the bedrock of their governments. According to Durant, "The triumph of Christ was the beginning of democracy."

•His Sermon on the Mount established a new paradigm in ethics and morals.

•Schools, hospitals, and humanitarian works have been founded in his name. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Oxford are but a few universities that have Christians to thank for their beginning.

•The elevated role of women in Western culture traces its roots back to Jesus. (Women in Jesus' day were considered inferior and virtual nonpersons until his teaching was followed.)

•Slavery was abolished in Britain and America due to Jesus' teaching that each human life is valuable.

•Former drug and alcohol dependents, prostitutes, and others seeking purpose in life claim him as the explanation for their changed lives.

•Two billion people call themselves Christians. While some are Christian in name only, others continue to impact our culture by teaching Jesus' principles that all life is valuable and we are to love one another.

Remarkably, Jesus made all of this impact as a result of just a three-year period of public ministry. If Jesus didn't exist, one must wonder how a myth could so alter history.

When world historian H. G. Wells was asked who has left the greatest legacy on history, he replied, "By this test Jesus stands first."

As for the question of whether or not his teachings were faithfully passed down to us: Fortunately, the early disciples of the Apostles were prolific writers and denounced many heresies. In the process, they inadvertently identified who, where and when those heresies were introduced.

The heretics of the first few centuries served another valuable purpose; because in the process of refuting their errors, all but a few sentences of the entire New Testament can be reconstructed from their writings. This allows us to easily determine not only what is sound doctrine, but also the canonicity of scripture.

An excellent collection of these writings can be found here.

While, I appreciate these alternate views being brought up, this thread is really about the Watchtower, and more specifically Fred Franz altering scripture to fit their particular heresies concerning being born again and judgment after death.

It is widely recognized the Fred Franz was the primary (if not sole) translator of the NWT, even though he was a college drop-out with only 2 college hours of Koine Greek and no Hebrew training at all.

Here are a few more related scripture comparisons:

Is. 26: 19

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:

for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.- KJV

Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust!

For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life. - NWT

The addition of the adjective "powerless" limits who will be resurrected, when Jesus taught that all will have a bodily resurrection, even though not all will be a pleasant one.

Mt. 25: 46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.- KJV

These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.- NWT

This phrase: "cutting-off" gives the impression that there are no future judicial proceedings as Jesus taught (and previously cited in the OP)

1 John 5: 12

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. - KJV

The one who has the Son has this life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this life.- NWT

Again, the addition of the word "this" limits the eternal life that absolutely anyone can have by simply believing Jesus is their Savior.

35

Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice

by Perry in

jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.

some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.

this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.

Perry

We can also see how uncomfortable Freddy Franz was with a judgement after death in his textual treatment of Job Chapter 19:

For I well know that my redeemer is alive; He will come later and rise up over the earth. After my skin has thus been destroyed, While yet in my flesh, I will see God.... You should know that there is a judge - NWT

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God....that ye may know there is a judgment - KJV

Here Fred adds the word "while" to the verse to try and insinuate that judgment is before death. However, the verse is clear, even in the NWT, that bodily facing God in judgment occurs after the "skin has been destroyed"; or at a later date after death.

35

Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice

by Perry in

jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.

some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.

this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.

Perry

Jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the Holy Spirit to take up residence within us. Some people get saved by simply inviting Jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life. This serves as a countering force within the born-again Christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our Lord himself.

Attempting to live the Christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside. Jesus said that he who sought to find his life would lose it, and he that sought to lose it for his sake would find it. Three times Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be "born again" in John Chapter 3.

So most folks would agree that the New Testament teaches the choice of being born twice, one physical & one spiritual. Furthermore, since the resurrection of Jesus is such a well attested fact of history, it proves that he has the power of life at his disposal. Once he takes up residence within you, you live as long s he does - in your glorified body, soul and spirit.

But, just as there are two births, the Bible teaches there are two deaths.

Jesus warned that we are to fear the second death more than the first one.

Revelation 20:14 tells us, "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

The second death is mentioned again in Revelation 21:8, which says, "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

One commentator wrote, "The second death is the continuance of spiritual death in another and timeless existence."

Another wrote, "Eternity to the godly is a day that has no sunset. Eternity to the wicked is a night that has no sunrise."

Jesus spoke of hell in a very specific way. He warned of the fire of hell (see Matthew 5:22). He warned about our bodies being thrown into hell (see Matthew 5:29). And He spoke of the soul and the body being destroyed in hell (see Matthew 10:28).

The Bible teaches that all Christians, defined as sinners who have been converted by putting their faith in Jesus Christ will avoid condemnation. And, that offer of forgiveness is for everyone.

Your eternal destination is really your choice. Not everyone will be saved in the end - only those who put their faith in Jesus Christ.

The purpose of this thread is to point out that not only has the Watchtower Corporation sought to deny the choice of being born again to their adherents (through the doctrine of the 144k and denial of the new covenant to general members at the Memorial), they also seek to deny the choice of we face concerning the second death.

One of the ways they do this is by altering a scripture in the new Testament to say something it does not say and something that contradicts Jesus. Here it is in the King James and the NWT at Hebrews 9: 27:

it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment - KJV
it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this to receive a judgment - NWT

Catch the difference? Sometimes the New Word translators add brackets to inserted words so the reader will know this was added to the original text, presumably for clarification. However they chose not to put brackets around the added words "for all time" even though this phrase in not in the original or later manuscripts.

Why doesn't the Watchtower want people to believe that there is a second death as Jesus taught? For the same reason that they don't want people to accept the New Covenant "for forgiveness of sins" as Jesus taught in Mt. 26:27, 28

Just as the Watchtower teaches that the New Covenant isn't possible for us (sorry all the positions were already filled long ago) , they also teach that the second death isn't possible for us either. However, God is clear that the unsaved will be reunited with their physical bodies and face Jesus in Judgment at the Great White Throne - fully alive; body, soul & spirit - after the Millennium Reign.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This what was meant when Peter stated that there would be a resurrection of both the Righteous and the Unrighteous.

To make all this even more twisted, the Watchtower proudly teaches that the Unrighteous will be resurrected to a paradise earth!! (They take another scripture completely out of context to support this - but that is for another discussion)

The bible is clear that the resurrection of the Unrighteous is not for the purpose of petting lions and cobras during the Millennium Reign as the Watchtower fantasizes about. Rather, it is for the stated purpose of God fulfilling his duty as Judge of moral creatures.

the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just - Jesus

We humans really like most of the differences that we have with all other animals. We readily accept notions of morality, goodness, art, beauty etc. What we don't like is the fact that with great gifts, comes great responsibility. There is a price that must be paid for the creation of free moral creatures such as ourselves. That price is judgment.

God, in his benevolence so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.