Ok, assuming your boat claim to be true, where is the water that could have elevated such a vessel to the summit of Ararat?
I posted a picture of it here.
Posts by Perry
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Perry
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Perry
konceptual,
I know you just didn't quote the Watchtower as an authority, did you?
What strange bedfellows are made sometimes
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Hi everyone, just signed up here
by samj inhi, i just signed up.
i'm 35, i've been baptized 20 years, married 15 years.
it seems like the wife and i are going in opposite directions spiritually.
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Perry
Hi Sam!
I'm still a regular attender and don't plan on leaving, I enjoy the friends I have, and being raised in the truth, it is a matter of being in a comfort zone, but I have dabbled in worldly, immoral ways on and off thru my years of being dedicated.
Does this concern you? Perhaps you found out like I did the the Watchtower's emphasis on will power was a dead end?
The Wt likes to quote the first part of Phil. 2: 12, but not vs. 13. But vs. 13 makes all the difference in the world.
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
God works in those that make friends with him through the new covenant, the one we were taught to reject each memorial. It's a lot easier letting God do the heavy lifting.
Welcome aboard!
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Perry
Here's some more evidence from antiquity Kate. Thanks for posting on this fascinating subject!
Noah’s Ark: (137m (450 feet) long, 23m (75 feet) wide, and 14m (45 feet) high).
In the writings of Pliny the Elder (AD 23–79), I discovered the table (below) about ships of antiquity. This documents the rapid advances the ancients made in ship-building technology in just a few centuries. The time period in the table is from about the seventh century BC to the end of the third century BC.3
Vessel Inventor Authority Approx. Time Double-banked galley The Erythraeans Damastes 7th C. BC Trireme (three banks of oars) Aminocles of Corinth Thucydides 6th C. BC Quadrireme (four banks) The Carthaginians Aristotle 5th C. BC Quinquereme (five) The Salaminians Mnesigiton 4th C. BC Galleys with six banks of oars The Syracusans Xenagoras 4th C. BC Up to ten banks Alexander the Great Mnesigiton 4th C. BC Up to twelve banks Ptolemy Soter Philostephanus 3rd C. BC Up to fifteen banks Demetrius, son of Antigonus Philostephanus 3rd C. BC Up to thirty banks Ptolemy Philadelphus Philostephanus 3rd C. BC Up to forty banks Ptolemy Philopator, surname Tryphon Philostephanus 3rd C. BC ![]()
The biblical Ark was within the range of acceptable dimensions for a vessel in ancient times. Though it was huge, other wooden vessels from ancient times were just as large.
When we think of warships of antiquity, we think of the tiny ships that were shown in a movie like Ben Hur. They had about fifty or so men, and a single tier of oars. This was the best Hollywood could do on a limited budget. It may reflect our evolutionary thinking, that the ancients were primitive compared to us. While we may flatter ourselves with our supposed knowledge of ancient history, the actual facts that come down to us tell us another story. From this table in Pliny, we can see a rapid rise in technology over a few hundred years which culminated in a ship of forty tiers of oars (when we say forty tiers we mean forty levels of rowers!). Now the question is, do we have any descriptions of these ships so we can comprehend how large they really were? Fortunately, we have a good description of one of the early third-century ships and an excellent description of the largest ship Pliny lists.4
The Leontifera
There was a naval battle in the Aegean Sea in 280 BC. The following is Ussher’s description of what happened:
When Antigonus, surnamed Gonatas, the son of Demetrius Poliorcetes, heard how Seleucus was murdered, he made an expedition into Macedonia. He planned to get there before Ceraunus could, with his army and naval forces. However, Ceraunus had all Lysimachus’ fleet in readiness, and set out and met him in a good battle formation at sea. In his navy, ships were sent from Heraclea in Pontus, some of six, some of five tiers of oars. These kinds of ships were called “Aphracta”. The largest ship of all had eight tiers of oars and was called the Leontifera. She was admired by all for her large size and exquisite construction. In her were a hundred oars per tier, so that on each side there were eight hundred rowers which made 1600 in all. On the upper deck or hatches there were 1200 fighting men who were under two special commanders. When the battle began, Ceraunus won and Antigonus was forced to flee with all his navy. In this fight, the ships from Heraclea performed the best and among them the Leontifera did the best of all.5
We are not given the dimensions of this ship. However, the oarsmen on each tier would have to be at least three feet apart, the approximate distance between airline seats. (Has anyone ever complained of having too much space between airline seats?!) For 100 rowers per tier, allowing for a bow and a stern, this ship could easily have been 120–150 metres (400–500 feet) long.
Athenaeus gives us a detailed description of a very large warship, built by Ptolemy Philopator (c. 244–205 BC).7 It was 130m (420 feet) long, 18m (57 feet) wide, and 22m (72 feet) high to the top of her gunwale. From the top of its sternpost to the water line was 24 metres (79.5 feet). It had four steering oars 14m (45 feet) long. It had 40 tiers of oars. The oars on the uppermost tier were 18m (57 feet) long. The oars were counter-balanced with lead to make them easier to handle. It had a double bow and a double stern and carried seven rams, of which one was the leader and the others were of gradually reducing size. It had 12 under-girders 275m (900 feet) long. The ship was manned by 400 sailors to handle the rigging and the sails, 4,000 rowers and 2,850 men in arms for a total of 7,250 men. This ship was too large to be of much practical use.8
Some things of interest about this ship. First, there are no forests worth mentioning in Egypt. All the lumber had to be imported from elsewhere, likely Lebanon. This ship had a crew that was almost twice as large as that of the largest aircraft carrier we have ever built! The size of the ship approximated the size of Noah’s Ark. Like Noah’s Ark, it would have had to carry provisions for all on board.
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Masters-level students at Leicester University’s Department of Physics and Astronomy in England examined the ark’s dimensions as described in Genesis 6:13-22 and came to a stunning conclusion.
“University of Leicester students show Noah’s ark would have been strong enough to carry pairs of each animal species,” proclaims a statement on the university’s website".
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Noah's ark once again. I hate beating a dead horse, but.
by James Mixon inthe altitude problem.
mt.
everest today is 29042 feet high and i know some will say it.
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Perry
Some People Believe the Earth Was Once Covered With Water? ... That's Ridiculous!
Worldwide Flood, Worldwide Evidence
When the Bible refers to a worldwide Flood in Genesis 7–8, that’s exactly what it means. Not local, not metaphorical, not some crazy dream—the waters covered the whole earth. Don’t just take our word for it, though. Take a look at the evidence right beneath your feet.Evidence 1: Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over the continents
We find fossils of sea creatures in rock layers that cover all the continents. For example, most of the rock layers in the walls of Grand Canyon (more than a mile above sea level) contain marine fossils. Fossilized shellfish are even found in the Himalayas.
Focus in: High & Dry Sea Creatures
Evidence 2: Rapid burial of plants and animals
We find extensive fossil “graveyards” and exquisitely preserved fossils. For example, billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand). The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.
Focus in: The World’s a Graveyard
Evidence 3: Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas
We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents—even between continents—and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia. Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.
Focus in: Transcontinental Rock Layers
Evidence 4: Sediment transported long distances
We find that the sediments in those widespread, rapidly deposited rock layers had to be eroded from distant sources and carried long distances by fast-moving water. For example, the sand for the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon (Arizona) had to be eroded and transported from the northern portion of what is now the United States and Canada. Furthermore, water current indicators (such as ripple marks) preserved in rock layers show that for “300 million years” water currents were consistently flowing from northeast to southwest across all of North and South America, which, of course, is only possible over weeks during a global Flood.
Focus in: Sand Transported Cross Country
Evidence 5: Rapid or no erosion between strata
We find evidence of rapid erosion, or even of no erosion, between rock layers. Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion. For example, there is no evidence of any “missing” millions of years (of erosion) in the flat boundary between two well-known layers of Grand Canyon—the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Formation. Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.
Focus in: No Slow and Gradual Erosion
Evidence 6: Many strata laid down in rapid succession
Rocks do not normally bend; they break because they are hard and brittle. But in many places we find whole sequences of strata that were bent without fracturing, indicating that all the rock layers were rapidly deposited and folded while still wet and pliable before final hardening. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon is folded at a right angle (90°) without evidence of breaking. Yet this folding could only have occurred after the rest of the layers had been deposited, supposedly over “480 million years,” while the Tapeats Sandstone remained wet and pliable.
Focus in: Rock Layers Folded, Not Fractured
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Noah's ark once again. I hate beating a dead horse, but.
by James Mixon inthe altitude problem.
mt.
everest today is 29042 feet high and i know some will say it.
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Perry
The altitude problem. Mt. Everest today is 29042 feet high and I know some will say it
wasn't the high in Noah's day (tectonic plate shift not well understood by religious zealots)
but if you figure mountains grow 4 millimeters a year over 4-5 thousands years = what?
Noah's ark was floating for about a year at stratospheric levels. How would that effect humans
and mostly the animals, lack of oxygenJames Mixon,
I remember as a teenager that the height of Mt. Everest was 29028. That's a lot of movement in just a few years. Why should we assume that the rate of ascension is the same now as it was immediately after a catastrophic event?
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How Many People are Living a Lie?
by awokenjw inone of the things i often wonder about at the meetings is how many of these people are actually living a lie or sinning in secret?
and more importantly, how do these ones stomach it?
in my case, i have secretly dated and done things disapproved by the wt with a pioneer sister in my congregation for years and we both go to the same meeting twice a week and pretend everything is perfect and nothing has happened.
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Perry
Some Dude Over the Rainbow,
You are experiencing the domination of Sin in your life. Sin is a nasty taskmaster. If you let him, Jesus would give you a new spirit that cannot sin. The power of sin your life would be broken, forever.
Jesus came to save us from the chains of sin and death. I have experienced this freedom, and millions of others have too. You are not unique. Your burden is very common in fact.
You are not sick per se, but your burden is real.
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Bye and thanks for everything
by LifesNotOver inwe really went at it this weekend.
pretty ugly!
well at least now the air is cleared.
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Perry
The unexamined life is not worth living - Socrates
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Long Time Visitor New Member
by LogansRun injust wanted to say hello, i have been visiting this site for a very long time and i feel like i know so many of you already, now you can get to know me but for now i'm fading so i cant give my complete story.
i'm single but have "hardcore" siblings in the religion, thankfully i do have family who never expressed interest in the jws.
i really checked out years ago from to much mental abuse and no recognition for all that i gave to this organization.
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Perry
LogansRun,
Welcome and just want you to know that you are an inspiration to all of us.
- Perry
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"What is in it for me."
by stuckinarut2 inso if there was no promise of a "reward" for faithfulness...no paradise...no eternal life etc, how many witnesses would stick with the "faith"?.
sure, the reward might be "making god happy", but he supposedly holds out the paradise promise with eternal life as an incentive right?.
before anyone says, that's what satans challenge regarding job was about, just think.
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Perry
You are confused on who the criminal is. You might have a point if at that judgment the person was without sin. God doesn't force anyone to obey just as he doesn't force anyone to accept a pardon.
If God doesn't judge sin, then that would make the enabler of sin without justice.
