Are you demanding scientific evidence for a metaphysical discussion?
No I'm asking for reasonable responses to a few common sense observations.
But Cofty, your idea of what is reasonable repeatedly appeals to the scientific method. Your materialist worldview is not consistent, but arbitrary. You borrow from the Christian worldview in order to attack it. For instance, as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, a stable belief in what is reasonable is inappropriate where you claim that your reason (and existence) was born out of spontaneous appearance (a miracle), chance, disorder, mutation and social pressures alone.Reason and logic are the same everywhere regardless of these conditions. Why? And, why would you accept them to be so if they are evolving, like you? And, if they are not evolving anymore, at what point did your reasoned logic "arrive" to where you are now and how do you know it wont evolve in the future making your current logic nonsense? Your position opens up a litany of more questions than satisfying answers.Like it or not, the Christian worldview is consistent. I can trust the rules of logic and reason because I am made in the image of the eternal, unchanging First Cause. Since God "changeth not" I have a reasonable basis for logic & morals and not situational, arbitrary & inconsistent positions.The one paltry attempt you did make to directly address the problem was truly pathetic.
Invective like this is a sign of fear & desperation. No need for that. Your belief system is duly noted and well documented on this forum.I have been trying to think of an example to illustrate the absurdity of arbitrary treatment of evidence.** If an orphan child presented himself, who would think that just because his father in unknown that the father MUST NOT exist?Conversely, would only children where the father presented himself, be viewed as having a father?
Posts by Perry
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496This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe
by cofty insometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.
various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.
i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.
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Perry
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Part of Growing Up - Saying Goodbye to Invisible Friends?
by doubtfull1799 ini don’t remember having any invisible friends when i was a really little boy, i don’t know if such a thing actually exists, i’ve only ever seen it in movies?
of course it might have looked to others like i was talking to someone on occasions, but i’m sure it would have just been me talking to myself.
the thing is though, i got introduced to an invisible friend in my pre-teens, and i kept the relationship going well into adulthood.
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Perry
For me, the jury is still out on that one. I am struggling to accept that a creator wants to be found and wants a relationship with individuals when he makes it so hard to find him and when so many organisations use mistruth, manipulation and deceit
God is easily found. You find him at the end of yourself. In Mt. 25: 26 & 27 Jesus offered everyone a deal. People have free will to accept or reject. Very easy to understand.
As far as organizations using manipulation; why blame God for that? Free will allows for this, otherwise how would you know people had free will?
And I find there to be no difference. I have experienced just as many successes and failures, rewards and setbacks, commendations and complaints as I did before. And what I have learned is that THE ONLY PERSON these experiences were dependent on was MYSELF!
The bible is clear that God has NOTHING TO DO with those that are not in Christ. Because we as JW's rejected Christ (the new covenant), we might as well have been Hindu or whatever.
Romans 8 : 9 "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his"
Just sayin' that we didn't give God much of a chance by rejecting his Son, so prayers were definitely impeded by our disobedience as JW's,, not to mention our idolatry in reckoning the Wt as "the truth" the sole channel of communication, Ark of Salvation etc. etc., etc.... and other heretical boasting... ad nauseum.
The worthlessness of our prayers as JWs is powerful testimony.
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Pharaoh tries to kill all male babies - later Moses orders the very same thing!
by George One Time inso many things that i just discoved about the bible.. .
so from the book my book of bible stories, we all know how little moses was saved from a cruel pharaoh.
of course the king of egypt was afraid that those cute little babies would endanger his empire eventually.
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Perry
Here's a well reasoned treatment of the subject.
This action/atrocity by the Midianites is an intensely sordid and depressing tale, of greater scale than even that of Sodom and Gomorrah, and of greater anti-Hebrew malice and calculating treachery than even that of the Amalekites…The removal of this exact sub-culture (without impacting the Moabites or the rest of the Midianites—for good or ill), while mercifully sparing a very large number of innocent young girls, yet without sparing the guilty Israelites, seems neither cruel nor unfair nor unwarranted, given the horrendously dehumanizing character of this crime, and given the unavoidable consequences of conflict upon children in the ancient world…
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Stephen Lett looks like a crazed maniac in the March JW broadcast
by jambon1 inare people taking this man seriously?
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he looks genuinely mentally ill. .
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Part of Growing Up - Saying Goodbye to Invisible Friends?
by doubtfull1799 ini don’t remember having any invisible friends when i was a really little boy, i don’t know if such a thing actually exists, i’ve only ever seen it in movies?
of course it might have looked to others like i was talking to someone on occasions, but i’m sure it would have just been me talking to myself.
the thing is though, i got introduced to an invisible friend in my pre-teens, and i kept the relationship going well into adulthood.
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Perry
Good question!
Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
As JW's, we did not believe God, but stubbornly clung to our families and man-made (WT) idols instead of believing God.
Abraham on the other hand left his family and his fathers' idols and believed that God had a plan for him when he was asked to separate himself from both of those and go to a different land.
It makes no difference as to the historical timing of Jesus sacrifice for the payment of the death penalty on each of our behalf, because without believing God, we wont accept it.
Had Abraham been alive after Jesus death, he would have believed God when he told him to "eat" and "drink" for the forgiveness of sins.
We all here disbelieved God in regards to his instructions concerning the forgiveness of our sins and refused the New Covenant, and hence could not be friends with God.
Belief is a prerequisite for friendship/obedience.
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Idea and system of belief
by S K Ditta inby way of a general question: can a system of belief outlive the disintegration of its core ideas?
how and why??.
urge you to reflect, and post freely.. your thoughts are appreciated without bias..
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Perry
Some people state in their corporate bylaws or articles of incorporation, that if and when certain core ideals of the association are no longer adhered to, that the organization should be disbanded.
Otherwise, the system outlives it purpose.
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Part of Growing Up - Saying Goodbye to Invisible Friends?
by doubtfull1799 ini don’t remember having any invisible friends when i was a really little boy, i don’t know if such a thing actually exists, i’ve only ever seen it in movies?
of course it might have looked to others like i was talking to someone on occasions, but i’m sure it would have just been me talking to myself.
the thing is though, i got introduced to an invisible friend in my pre-teens, and i kept the relationship going well into adulthood.
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Perry
If you think that you had an imaginary friendship with God as a JW, you are right. .
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Outside of the New Covenant (the one we were denied access to) there is no friendship with God, real or imagined.
he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink it, all of you;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.- Mt 25:26 & 27
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A major misadventure!
by Bungi Bill inhi, everyone.. i haven't posted here much in quite a while, but having just been laid low by injury, i'll likely be a frequent visitor for some time to come!.
two weeks ago, i was involved in a workplace accident that left me with my lower l.h.
leg fractured in three places (the tibia and fibular both broken clean through, plus another crack in the "neck" of the fibular for good measure!
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Perry
Oh dear! Well, looking forward to your contributions here.
Maybe time to watch Bob Ross episodes on Netflix and do those paintings many always wanted to do?
Speedy healing!
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Scriptures that now have such a different meaning?!
by stuckinarut2 init struck me that so many of the scriptures that the society uses to condemn others, can actually apply to them!.
when we read them without the application that the society enforces, they can make you have that "ah-ha!
" moment.... for instance, how about:.
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Perry
As a kid, I remember a lot of porch signs that read NO PEDDLERS.
"for we are not peddlers of the word of God as many men are"
There: That should clear up any confusion. Says right there that we are not like those other guys.
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Any atheists here? Have you come to terms with your new reality?
by kpop inalone, without my safety net of "god" being there to remember me when i die.
after much consideration, examining science, history and using logic, i have come to the conclusion that there is no "god" at least certainly no loving, personal "god.
" shortly before my final conclusion was reached, i read an excerpt from an expression attributed to marcus aurelius, .
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Perry
The dead experience nothing therefore they don't lose anything. Death doesn't harm the dead.
That is what the WT taught us. But it is not biblical.
Rev. 6 - I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Clearly death doesn't mean annihilation of consciousness like the WT teaches. From the above verse, you can deduce that souls have their original identity (mind), have emotion, & memories.
The definition of death isn't non-existence. It means that the soul and body are separated when the body "sleeps" or stops functioning. That is the biblical definition of death.
The greatest hope of atheists, which they have no empirical data to support: is that when they die, their consciousness will stop. It is a vain, unfounded hope.
Unfortunately, they fail to realize that this was never part of the original design. We were created in the image of an eternal God, that we might fellowship with him forever.
Without Jesus, they will experience eternal separation from God, their second greatest wish.... that is until they actually get what they want. But, then it is too late. Eternal, conscious loneliness (outer darkness.) And, that is a best case scenario. Other scriptures suggest much worse, forever.
Can you definitively prove that:
There is the bible, there are millions of NDE and Terminal Lucidity cases that suggest this. And, I have personal experience that leaves no doubt for me that the soul absolutely can function without the body.