Perry

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Posts by Perry

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  24

  The Watchtower Denies Substitutionary Atonement

  by Perry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  for 30 years i never heard one time that christ died for me personally.

  i always heard that he died to pay back what adam lost.

  that never made alot of sense to me, but i just went along with it as a kid and young adult.. then, after i left... it hit me just how simple the whole thing was.

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  Perry

  John 3 cited above sums up what I believe on the matter. Admittedly, there is much theological speculation on this beyond that statement.
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  18

  DECEPTIVE CROSS-REFERENCING IN NWT

  by The Searcher in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in order to "scripturally justify" j.f.

  rutherford's rebranding of the bible students by the creation of a designer name which made them stand out from other bible students, the nwt deceptively misuses a verse to perpetuate the falsehood of the unscriptural name, "jehovah's" witnesses!.

  (james 2:7) "they blaspheme the fine name by which you were called,* do they not?".

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  Perry

  Oh no..... my head is spinning again!

  I NEED TO SIT DOWN.

  Now, that's better. Sitting down makes remembering my WT lobotomy a little easier.
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  24

  The Watchtower Denies Substitutionary Atonement

  by Perry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  for 30 years i never heard one time that christ died for me personally.

  i always heard that he died to pay back what adam lost.

  that never made alot of sense to me, but i just went along with it as a kid and young adult.. then, after i left... it hit me just how simple the whole thing was.

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  Perry

  He died for "Whosoever".

  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3
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  24

  The Watchtower Denies Substitutionary Atonement

  by Perry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  for 30 years i never heard one time that christ died for me personally.

  i always heard that he died to pay back what adam lost.

  that never made alot of sense to me, but i just went along with it as a kid and young adult.. then, after i left... it hit me just how simple the whole thing was.

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  Perry

  Moggy Lover : Brilliant.

  Thanks for fleshing that out.

  In fact as one can detect when we study Wt material on the matter, that the Wt presses this concept, not so much as a variant on the Atonement, but rather than as an attack, warranted or otherwise, on the Deity of Christ. Since Jesus was exactly the equivalent of Adam, then how could He be God, no?

  Good catch. Their logic actually builds on the false premise of the so-called exchange with Adam. In so doing, they can then attack the diety of Christ that is so carefully laid out in Hebrews Chapter 1 ...which BTW the WT tries to botch with strange punctuation.
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  24

  The Watchtower Denies Substitutionary Atonement

  by Perry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  for 30 years i never heard one time that christ died for me personally.

  i always heard that he died to pay back what adam lost.

  that never made alot of sense to me, but i just went along with it as a kid and young adult.. then, after i left... it hit me just how simple the whole thing was.

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  Perry

  For 30 years I never heard one time that Christ died for me personally. I always heard that he died to pay back what Adam lost. That never made alot of sense to me, but I just went along with it as a kid and young adult.

  Then, after I left... it hit me just how simple the whole thing was. God said that the wages of sin is death. But, the key is that it doesn't have to be YOUR death, UNLESS YOU JUST WANT IT TO BE. For example:

  “‘If any one of the people of the land sins unintentionally and becomes guilty by doing one of the things that Jehovah commands should not be done, 28 or if he becomes aware of a sin that he has committed, then he should bring a sound young female goat as his offering for the sin he has committed. 29 He will lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter the sin...

  The priest will take some of the blood ...and he will pour all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar…. and the priest will make atonement for him for the sin that he has committed, and it will be forgiven him. - Lev. 4 (NWT)

  Under the OT system a person could transfer his sin upon an animal and upon killing it with a priest invoved, the death penalty would be considered carried out. It is exactly the same under the NT system with the only difference being that there was no need for repetition.

  To deny the substitutionary sacrifice is to deny the very mechanism whereby God allows Someone to die IN YOUR PLACE. The WT has gone to great lenghts to try and tie Jesus' death to ADAM, and not to your own personal sins that will be judged after you die.

  Here is the NT proof that Christ died for US and NOT JUST ADAM:

  For, indeed, Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed. 1 Cor. 5:7 (NWT)

  The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness. 2 Cor. 5: 21 (NWT)

  Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.” Gal. 3: 13 (NWT)

  He was handed over for the sake of our trespasses and was raised up for the sake of declaring us righteous. Romans 4: 25 (NWT)

  For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones [not simply Adam], - 1 Peter 3: 18 (NWT)

  And once this exchange has been made on behalf of the believer, he is in need of NOTHING MORE:

  Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ; because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. So you have acquired a fullness [literally: you are complete] by means of him, the one who is the head of all government and authority. Col. 2: 8 - (NWT)

  Praise God that I don't need the Pope, Mary, a Jewish Priest, the Mormon Priesthood, dead saints, or the invented class of a Faithful and Discreet Slave, or any other human agency. I am complete in Christ Alone.... owing NOTHING to anyone for salvation.
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  340

  Fallacies about Faith

  by tec in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  peace to you!.

  this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

  this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

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  Perry

  It should not surprise us that authors of Biblical material were obsessed with obedience and the idea there was some intrinsic defect of humans that caused bad behavior. However, such, I now believe, is a terrible way to view our fellow humans. To assume the starting position is defective and by God, they better hope for the grace of God, or else they're doomed.

  rawe,

  But it's true. We cannot live up to our highest ideals. We can imagine them, but we can't get there. We want our high sounding religions and ideologies, our rules etc., etc. etc. but not Him personally. People want a system where they can participate in their salvation. God says no. You cannot partcipate in your own salvation, it is a gift. Life is in HIM....period. It is not found anywhere else.

  When God finally took the form of man and manifested our highest ideals, we killed him for it because we loved our traditions and systematic ways of betterment rather than the Author of it all. Man is utterly depraved and is infected with vanity. He naturally sees only himself usually displayed in the form of a god, ideology or idol that he fashions in his own image. The WT is just another idol.

  I chose the real deal after leaving the WT. God revealed himself to me and continually does so. I am NEVER alone, and he continually adds to me and what is mine based on my stewardship of what he entrusts to me. I don't deserve any of it. But I have prepared myself to receive what Christ has. God has obligated himself to me and anyone else who is called a son of God. God requires belief from me on my part and he pretty much does the rest. Belief is not easy. But belief is what moves the hand of God in the believers life.

  It is a completely different way of living; and one that is likely to appear foolish to an unbeliever. But, I've been doing this for many years now and it gets results, results, results. I'm all about results. It works. Prior to my belief and trust in Christ, there was little that worked to the degree that I wished it to in my life. I was powerless against my vices.
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  34

  1973 "Divine Victory" International Assemblies

  by Bungi Bill in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how many here attended the "divine victory" international assembly that was held 12- 16 december in christchurch, new zealand?.

  the venue was lancaster park.

  if the truth be known, that stadium was probably a casualty of the february 2011 earthquake?.

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  Perry

  I attended that event in I believe in Houston, Texas....can't quite rememeber.
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  340

  Fallacies about Faith

  by tec in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  peace to you!.

  this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

  this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

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  Perry

  No, not afraid. God is Holy, good and utterly righteous. His appearance and ministry in the person of Jesus proved that there was nothing redeemable in man. We are by nature his enemy and he, our enemy..... even though he is the personification of our hightest values. Man, in his current state is at war with himself as much as he is with God.

  It's not so much that man doesn't choose God....it's that he is so depraved and full of himself that he CAN'T choose God..... without GRACE. Get it now?

  "Does not the potter have authority over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for an honorable use, another for a dishonorable use? What, then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction? And if this was done to make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it? 25 It is as he says also in Ho·se′a: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not loved, ‘beloved’; 26 and in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”- Romans 9 New World translation
• 
  340

  Fallacies about Faith

  by tec in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  peace to you!.

  this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

  this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

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  Perry

  I’m also intrigued about Kirstin’s conversion from an “uber-liberal” to what I assume (the Fox-So-Called-News) ultra-conservative mindset.

  Etude,

  If I'm understanding you correctly, I think you missed some of the details. Kirsen is a liberal democrat commentator on Fox News brought in to argue that side when faced with conservative arguments. She still does that as far as I know.

  What I’ve come to know, given any lack of verification I can get my hands on, is that the “conversion processes” or the “being saved” idea is a very individual and personal idea that cannot be verified outside the one who experiences it. Therefore, it’s impossible to verify, replicate or emulate as much as one wants to.

  I would have to agree with the gist of your statement in bold above. I think God did a very public appearance initially when he went around making the blind see, the lame walk, and the dead rise. He was voluntarily murdered for doing the kinds of things that only God could do..... including dying FOR the childen of Adam.

  Now he reveals himself privately once someone decides to believe. Do you blame him?
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  27

  In effect the GB says the new testament was only written for the 144k - right?

  by Comatose in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  because if you just read it then its plain that all should partake of the emblems and go to heaven etc.

  they get around that by saying it only applied to those when written who all anointed and then a small group today.

  so they take away the bible for the average witness.

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  Perry

  Hebrews 9:27 CLEARLY applies to everyone:

  And just as it is reserved for men to die once [for all time], but after this to receive a judgment....

  - New World Translation (brackets added for the deceptive addition)

  Isn't it funny how you never hear the Watchtower saying that God's judgments only apply to the "little flock"? But, when it comes to the scriptures that guarantees our survival of such a personal judgment, like how the the holy spirit bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God, those scriptures are simply declared as not applying to anyone except the WT leaders.

  Sooooooooo transparent.

  "However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something

  beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed." - Galations 1:8 New World Transaltion

  The basic message of the WT is this:

  1. You're gonna get judged

  2. Since the New Testament solutions to this problem don't apply to you, your only hope of surviving this is to follow us for salvation.

  Reminds me of Jesus' warning: "many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many" MT 24: 5 NWT