Thank you Searcher. I really appreciate the research you did, I really do. I will study out the scriptures you cite on point 3 a little later.
Posts by Perry
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51The Great Crowd Catch 22
by Perry injust had a two hour conversation with my father.
he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.
he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.
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51
The Great Crowd Catch 22
by Perry injust had a two hour conversation with my father.
he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.
he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.
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Perry
objective truth,
Those examples were his main argument to explain why he didn't need the New Covenant to be declared righteous.... because those guys were declared righteous without the New Covenant.
I explained that from the time of Moses on, there was an agreement in place for the foregiveness of sins through the blood of animals, which pictured Jesus in the future. Prior to that, believing God ALONE was enough to declare someone righteous ("Abraham believed God and it was credited unto him as righteousness")
Now that Jesus has come, why he wants to ignore his 3 time command to be born again and to instead believe anonymous watchtower writers is just without foundation of any kind, other than someone told him to do it (the wt.).
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51
The Great Crowd Catch 22
by Perry injust had a two hour conversation with my father.
he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.
he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.
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Perry
I know this. My heart has been so heavy, I finally wept to let some of the pain out. The Enemy is ruthless.
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51
The Great Crowd Catch 22
by Perry injust had a two hour conversation with my father.
he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.
he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.
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Perry
Yep, there it is - three times
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. - John 3
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32
Please help....in a dilemma..
by crazyhorse inplease help with this: when i was in college, there was a lot of talk about university and how all who pursue that are wasting their time and all that.
even before going to uni, there was a lot of pressurr on me concerning my decision.
during that time, two elders sat with me for appointment as ms and asked me if i have freedom of speech in the org since i'm going to uni and i said no.
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Perry
crazyhourse, I made the same decision and have not regretted it. I have many other regrets, but this is not one of them. I am a 4th gen born-in.
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51
The Great Crowd Catch 22
by Perry injust had a two hour conversation with my father.
he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.
he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.
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Perry
Thanks for the quote Fernando. I don't know if that would have helped. I don't think he wants a free gift. It sounds like he really wants to work a thousand years for it.
I doctored this page out of a watchtower some time ago to illustrate the insanity of the Watchtower writers. Notice how the caption next to the picture inset at the top says one thing, and the first sentence on paragraph 20 says the opposite! This one page captures the "convoluted morass of the Watchtower two class system" like no other that I have found:
http://bibleready.org/uploads/WT_6-15-2011_PG_15_Rebuttal_Version.pdf (Save to your own computer if you wish)
I was exhausted after the conversation, and very sad. My father kept repeating that I wasn't able to get the "big picture".
Thanks for the support; thank you very, very much.
Crazy Guy,
Jesus also told Nicodemus that one must be born again to see the kingdom of god, he said it 3 times.
I didn't know that it was three times. That is amazing. I may use that in the future. I can't think of another instance where Jesus repeated something 3 times. Thank you.
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Formal Introduction - Hi!!!
by Gustv Cintrn inbeen lurking here for yyyyyeeeeears, but was too busy with school, jw life and other interests.
now that i'm done with education for the time being anyway, plus the jw life is under pretty good control, i can spend some time and throw my views here and there in some attractive topics.. born-in, and deeply indoctrinated, but with life experience came better comprehension of my lot in life and have come to accept that, just like the family one is born into, jws are my family, friends, my ultimate and overall identity.
a jw is what i am; like the song 'hotel california', and like so many on this board, check out anytime you'd like but one could never leave.. remember like it was yesterday the failed 'the wolf is coming' calls of 1975, mid-80s, late 90's, y2k, 2004 or so, and same will be with the latest effort to get people overly excited about 'the end'.
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Perry
Nice to meet you. My brother is an elder in a Spanish speaking congregation.
Welcome aboard.
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51
The Great Crowd Catch 22
by Perry injust had a two hour conversation with my father.
he is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of god as a member of the 'great crowd'.
he did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous.
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Perry
Just had a two hour conversation with my father. He is insistent that he will be able to enter the kingdom of God as a member of the 'great crowd'. He did agree that only the annointed are declared righteous. And, he believes he will acheive a righteous standing only after one thousand years of trying to be good under the millenium reign where mankind will undergo a sort of re-education program.
But the problem is that you have to FIRST be declared righteous to get in:
Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God. 1 Cor. 6: 9 NWT
So the problem that JWs have is that they must first be declared righteous in order to enter the millenium reign. However according to their doctrine, they aren't declared righteous until after the final test at the END of the thousand years when Satan is let loose to deceive one last time. So they have an impossible Catch 22 situation.
I then took him over to Revelation 7 where the NWT reads:
“These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The white robes signify the RIGHTEOUS STANDING of the great tribulation survivors; and the instrument of their justification is the "blood of the lamb".
I then showed him Mt. 26:27,28 in his NWT:
And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.
Clearly the new covenant is for the forgiveness of sins. But JW's think they can enter the kingom millenium without membership in this covenant and the righteous standing that goes along with it, even though 1 Cor. 6: 9 says you can't.
The bottom line is that my father is perfectly willing to keep trying to be good for a thousand more years rather than accepting the free gift now and thus getting declared righteous now and saving himself one thousand years worth of trouble! This is in addition to the impossibility of their great crowd doctrine.
Please pray for the salvation of my mom and dad.
- Perry
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Stephen Lett (Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses) Publicly Counsels Politicians During Convention Keynote Address In Africa
by jwleaks inzambia: fulfill promises ... jehovah's witnesses counsel politicianstimes of zambia.
august 23, 2014. by chatula kampo.
a top jehovah's witnesses' world leader has bemoaned politicians' failure to fulfill campaign promises.. stephen lett, who gave a keynote speech at the on-going convention held at levy mwanawasa stadium in ndola, said politicians needed to meet the aspirations of people who vote them into public offices.. meanwhile, conversion overseer john mashilipa has urged fellow witnesses to respect the government of the day, obedient and continue remaining non-partisan.. in the keynote address streamed live from solwezi district in the north-western province, mr lett, one of the seven members of the world governing body said electorates expected much from the people they vote for.. "there is need for politicians to fulfill their promises to their voters once they assumed power," he said.. he observed that most politicians failed to fulfill promises to their voters who had high expectations.. "politicians usually promise a moon and not deliver to their promises, this is disappointing to the voters who have high expectations," he said.. mr mashilipa said believers needed to seek god's kingdom which he said never fails, unlike human governance.. this year's conversion attracted a historic attendance of more than 40,000 people from across the five districts in the province namely; ndola, kitwe, luanshya, mufulira, kalushi and chambishi.. gathered under the theme 'keep seeking first god's kingdom', witnesses filled the stadium and those who could not find seats monitored proceedings from outside.
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Perry
Great image Watchtower-Free. Nice quote too. I wonder how many people were told that Jesus wasn't their Mediator before they got baptized as a JW?
Why not do a door to door campaign on it?
"Hi, My name is Perry and we were encouraging bible reading in your neighborhood this morning. You know, Jesus is not the Mediator between God and the members of our congregation. Do you think you might like to visit our Christian congregation sometime"?
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Just wanting to hear experiences.
by joe134cd init's funny how my mind works since walking out of the hall just a bit over a year ago.
for some reason i just can't seem to bring myself to go to the jw.org site.
i find it just to painful.
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Perry
The notion that a "loving" God saves me by having his son spill blood is archaic and more than a little mad.
Steve,
The wages of sin is death and eventual judgment. This is the answer that my college professors did not want to face as they taught me about "the problem of evil".
I was a virtual atheist when I noticed the near obsession of my philosophy professor, in attacking Christian arguments. After leaving the JW's I assumed that most educated people wouldn't even waste their time with biblical arguments. I was VERY MUCH surprised to see Christian ideas attacked so feverently at university.
From God's point of view, there is no "problem" of evil.
The professor was forced to first explain Christian arguments in order to destroy them. Most of the Christian arguments I never knew about as a JW. This really piqued my interest. I found many of the Christian arguments sound and reasonable. I owe a great debt to my atheist professors and the atheists on this very discussion board for helping me to clearly see the competition as a choice, a not the necessary default view I once believed it to be.