Perry

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Posts by Perry

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  72

  Coping With Atheism (Long-ish Post...sorry!)

  by humblepotato in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.

  first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.

  all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.

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  Perry

  Vivane,

  This sign reminded me of you recently.

  
  
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  5

  which ones? just these ones! and no partaking mentioned.hmm

  by sowhatnow in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  here in matthew chapter 19 jesus tells a man the commandments he has to do to gain life... which apparently did not include partaking of his flesh and blood.

  so this means that this man could have everlasting life and not partake of the emblems.

  they knew not of them.

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  Perry

  Jesus is just saying here that you have to be perfect to gain entrance into the Kingdom. The New Covenant that he later offered was an offer of imputation of righteousness as well as vicarious punishment.

  Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. - Jesus
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  14

  "What every atheist should say to God...if Judgment Day actually happens"!

  by James Mixon in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  interesting read.

  i wouldn't recommend you believers to read it.

  i don't think i. would have the balls to tell god that.

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  Perry

  
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  72

  Coping With Atheism (Long-ish Post...sorry!)

  by humblepotato in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.

  first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.

  all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Perry

  JW's pick and choose a lot of things in the bible to prop up their rebellion against God when they deny the blood of the covenant that is expressly FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

  And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my ‘blood of the covenant, which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins - Mt 26: 27-28 NWT
  
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  72

  Coping With Atheism (Long-ish Post...sorry!)

  by humblepotato in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.

  first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.

  all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Perry

  Cofty,
  

  The biblical test for knowing God [as opposed to imagining that we know him] seems to be continued fruit of his presence. The fruit is proof the faith is (was) real.
  

  1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments [to believe?].

  1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

  Some might argue that since you appear to not love your former brothers, you never knew God and never passed over from death to life.

  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father [to believe?] which is in heaven.

  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".
  
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  72

  Coping With Atheism (Long-ish Post...sorry!)

  by humblepotato in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.

  first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.

  all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Perry

  Sorry, to be clearer, that 1st line should have been:
  " Perry, a child's natural predisposition towards belief in the concept of intelligent design by a God, does not prove that all adults 'know God exists'.

  D of T,

  Yes it still made sense. And, if you'll allow me to further clarify my thoughts:

  I think that humans instinctively believe God exists, but because of learning various things, (and suppressing other things) some find themselves not believing.

  I am tempted to make the following argument along these lines:

  People believe God exists; however they do not cross over to KNOWING God exists until they are born again into the family of God.

  My hypothetical argument would go something like this:

  1. God says that a prerequisite to making friends with him is to first believe he exists.

  Hebrews 11:6 - he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. In other words, they must want rewards from God.

  2. Knowing God, having experiential truth of his existence, is reserved for those that are "born again". In other words, reserved for those that have made friends with him by the BLOOD of Christ, him "being made sin for us" and taking the prescribed punishment for our sin, in our place. Once the criminality of the man is dealt with, God readily reveals himself to the believer and he crosses over from BELIEF to KNOWING.

  John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

  1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

  1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know

  1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

  1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
  

  1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life

  1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

  Now, as JW's we certainly never believed that we knew a for-sure salvation. We had to tow the line to have HOPE of salvation, according to the WT definition of hope. However hope and knowing in the biblical sense are not mutually exclusive. The bible says we can KNOW and also have HOPE in the same thing that is not yet fully experienced. (The WT definition of hope is like when we hope we win the lottery). Biblical hope is 100% sure, just not yet fully experienced.

  I personally experienced this transfer from belief to KNOWING when I was born again by the spirit of God. It is quite dramatic when God starts working in a person' life without the barrier of sin in the way of the relationship.

  A person then experiences the reality of Romans 8: 28 where Gods says that he doesn't protect the child of God from experiencing obstacles and dangers, but that he transforms the obstacles and dangers into things that work for the GOOD of the friend of God, those that are supernaturally enabled to love him.

  That is the argument that I am tempted to make. And, there is doubtless much truth in that argument.

  However, Romans 1: 20 kinda diminishes that argument:

  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, [as children?] they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations

  
  

  Is God saying here that our guilt emerges when we make the transition from a child [who believes God] into an adult who indulges their imaginations and suppression of the fact of his existence and inherent accountability?

  That is what it seems like to me. Many Christians believe, and have scriptural support, that children who die before the age of accountability are transferred immediately into his loving presence. It is not that the children haven't yet sinned and are deserving of eternal life, it is the belief [faith] that saves them from judgment by God's grace.

  "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast"

  This is probably why Jesus pleaded with people to become like children if they wanted to be saved.

  Jesus was once asked by a man point blank: what was the work of God so that he could do it [since he gathered that the LAW WASN'T SUFFICIENT according to Jesus)

  Virtually the first word out of his mouth was... BELIEVE.
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  72

  Coping With Atheism (Long-ish Post...sorry!)

  by humblepotato in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.

  first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.

  all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Perry

  Village Idiot:

  Children are easily fooled. Perry, are we infants?

  Yes, we are easily fooled. The mind is capable of all sorts of self deceptions. Life without God leaves the mind and emotions to itself. Sometimes we get things right, sometimes we don't. The mind and emotions are capable of extraordinary feats of deception to try and make sense of things.

  Below: Squares A & B are identical. Test it here.

  
  
• 
  72

  Coping With Atheism (Long-ish Post...sorry!)

  by humblepotato in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.

  first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.

  all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Perry

  FTS,

  Are you aware that Michael Shermer, atheist professor and publisher of Skeptic Magazine published an article in the Wall Street Journal entitled:

  WHY BELIEF IN GOD IN INNATE

  In that article he states:

  "That is, your culture may dictate which God to believe in, but the belief in a supernatural agent who operates in the world is universal to all cultures because it is hard-wired in the brain"
  

  While he attempts to explain away this fact within an atheist paradigm, he does not attempt to contradict God's truth that ALL people believe that God exists.... at least initially until they suppress that obvious fact.
• 
  72

  Coping With Atheism (Long-ish Post...sorry!)

  by humblepotato in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.

  first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.

  all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Perry

  Here you go D of T,

  CHILDREN ARE BORN WITH BELIEF IN GOD

  Extra-biblical source above.

  I believe that atheism, for many adherents, is an attempt at emotional regulation. (SEE SUPPORTING LINKS IN PREVIOUS POST) The bible claims this position is simple "suppression". I'm not picking on atheists here, we have all engaged in suppression at one time or another. Listening closely to how many atheists express themselves supports this view, even if the bible didn't say so and there were no studies on atheists to rely on such as the one I previously linked to.

  This view solves a number of logical contradictions in many atheists, like how they can on the one hand claim to be without belief and on the other hand express strong emotions about God and those that claim to believe (and those that claim to KNOW) he exists.

  The person who started this thread first characterized himself to be without belief in God, then later expressed angst at not feeling that God cares.

  The bible says that we are born as enemies of God, having no relationship with him. It further claims in Roman 8:7 that...

  "the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so"

  The posters' intuition is working EXACTLY the way it was created to.This goes a long way to explain atheist contradictions.

  The Watchtower system of works and group speciality agrees with our carnal mind that wants to believe we can make friends with God through effort, ie. good works (in this case, as defined by the Wt.)

  Since he has now abandoned this work, he suppresses the obvious fact of Gods existence and instead rightly and correctly expresses his feelings of alienation from God. This alienation from God has in fact been there all along, from birth.

  Previously it was the alienation from God itself that was suppressed by the works-based approach to God as we all worked the Watchtower program. Now, it is simply God himself that is suppressed.... for some.

  It is not an easy thing to believe that there is both a God, and the fact that we are his enemy..... in spite of our various attempts at goodness. Yet, that fact explains a lot of our experience in this world.

  
  
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  72

  Coping With Atheism (Long-ish Post...sorry!)

  by humblepotato in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  long time lurker (2009-ish), first time poster.

  first of all, i want to say thank you everyone who contributes to these boards and provokes stimulating conversations and thought processes.

  all the opinions and different perspectives are very enlightening.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Perry

  I WANT, so badly, to believe in a God... and I keep looking for shreds of evidence that he exists (or if he does exist...that he cares about us).

  
  

  Hi HP,

  When I left, I came close to atheism but turned back to (Deism at least) in college. But I didn't embrace Christ until I understood how God deals with sin through judgment. That realization was such a epiphany to me. He could of course have made sin impossible or he could judge sin. God chose to judge sin instead of making it impossible, thus preserving free will. Then he gave his only begotten who agreed to "become sin for us" in our stead. He loves us that much.

  Many will argue that to allow a sinful world to continue is unkind. This of course would mean our non-existence. I personally have a hard time with that thought. It seems like giving up to me. I like victories. I like over-coming obstacles. There is much victory in Christ. I've sen it.

  I find the world fascinating. The flowers, the trees, sunshine, various landscapes, the beach, cool breezes, the magnitude of the coding in DNA, physical characteristics of the universe, and good friends and family. There are a number of things in our world that is out of whack too.

  However, God says there is no such thing as a true atheist. Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made.

  God explains why some people claim to be atheist too:

  Romans 1: 19 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
  

  People, including myself in the past suppressed the truth about God's existence. It is certainly easy to see why people do this because of the many people who misrepresent God and the hurt they have caused others in the exercise of their error. However, ALL people know God exists deep down.

  Some people will claim that this God who supposedly doesn't exist is guilty of rape, slavery, and all sorts of terrible things. I researched all of the claims made by those that don't like God and have found satisfying answers to most of them. Christian Think Tank and CARM does a fair job of refuting most of these kinds of claims against God.

  Suppression is a psychological tool the mind uses as an emotional regulation strategy. Many religiously abused people associate God with dictatorial control. I have personally found a tremendous freedom in Christ and much fatherly love (gentle discipline too). Others have not experienced this in God because they haven't made friends with him through the blood (covenant) of Christ. Our works are utterly useless in making friends with God.

  Bart Ehrman once had his charismatic youth group leader use a bottle of hotel shampoo to ‘anoint’ his dying father, and tried to persuade his father to confess specific sins” (“Former Fundamentalist ‘Debunks’ Bible,” CNN, May 15, 2009). Ehrman says he was angry at the man for acting “self-righteous” and “hypocritical.” This event, though, does not reflect negatively on a biblicist faith. It simply proves that this youth leader was a misguided man. The Bible does not instruct us to anoint people with shampoo.

  Anger at God may be seen as displaced aggression in my opinion as well, which is common in people as well as animals.

  Anyway, sorry to ramble. Welcome to the board. All the best on your journey!

  - Perry