Posts by Perry

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Perry

Perry,
I believe there is power in doubting, questioning.

Doug, I looked at your outline and it looks like a daunting task. I wish you well in your endeavor.

Jesus said if a person believed on him, he would be saved from death and judgment. He raised people from the dead, predicted his own death and resurrection, and did it. No one was saying in the the 1st century that this did not happen. Not his enemies, no one. It is the evidence of the resurrection that makes Salvation so hard to ignore.

Looking at your statement above I don't know if you realize that this is a statement of belief.

You believe in doubting and questioning, Who? Is there room in your worldview for those who don't "believe" as you do and who personally experience power from belief and obedience to God? ....especially on the doctrine of salvation?

Is your doubting limited to just God, or can you objectively apply that standard to yourself and the sources you wish to interpret?

You have already stated that a disbelief in Salvation would be a practical outcome of your investigation before you even hardly get started. How can you be sure that your research will not be effected by what YOU deem practical and effect your research and selections accordingly?

And BTW, how do you know what is practical and logical? What basis do you have for trusting your own logic? If you are a product of a mixture of blind chance and environment, isn't anyone's logic as good as another? Of course not, we have logic and expect it from those we talk to because our Creator is logical, ordered, and practical. You are employing one of HIS attributes (not randomness), one that you couldn't not possible know that you have for a certainty without Him, to try and demolish a key feature of God's wisdom - Salvation.

This problem of logic is not a problem for the Christian. We expect science, language, information etc., etc, etc. to be logical, ordered, & intelligent because the Source is all those things. I believe that you truly, deep down believe these things too. Otherwise, why not just get a few million letters and put them in a tumbler, start the wheel and wait for your research paper to get done?

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Perry

Morality? That's an easy one. Humans created it because it was a good set of rules to make cooperation within the group run smoothly.

never a jw,

Your materialistic explanation is intellectually bankrupt and is wrought with ethical problems. Secularists can be moral for sure, just as anyone can. The basic ability and sometimes even the "moral goods" are there too, but that's not the issue.

Objective morals are those that are positioned outside of yourself or your group. Subjective morals are those that depend on you, your situation, group, culture, preferences etc. Subjective morals change and differ from person to person. A subjective moral system, by its nature is relativistic, dangerous, can change, can become self-contradictory and can lead to anarchy. This is the best a materialistic view of morals can offer.

I believe Christianity offers more: ....do not lie, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not bear false witness, etc. These morals don’t change depending on your opinion, situation or group. They are based on God’s character; and since God doesn’t change, these morals don’t either.

In the event of a socioeconomic meltdown type event, where you notice an armed figure approaching you while on a dark road one night trying to take food to your family; Would you rather the stranger be:

1. A Christian who lives by - right is right regardless of circumstance and who believes God is watching and will provide as well as judge

OR

2. A Secularist who sees a "need" or a "benefit" and proceeds to adapt his morals to suit the encounter and the needs of his group?

Moral positioning effects worldviews too:

Worldview A: (your statement not mine)

I find Christians quite annoying. Their arrogance, supported by ignorance and credulity, is the main problem

Worldview B

I find you to have worth, dignity and validity based on being made in the image of God. Regardless of your "doings" (which I may not agree with), you are a human "being".

Morals have consequences in many other unintended ways too.

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Perry

If the readers decide to reject the concept of salvation, Doug unintentionally is doing a great service to humanity

I am sure Doug is a very fine researcher. But he as much as says that this is his intentional purpose or at least a "practical" outcome in his estimation. That is what I questioned.

The vast majority of mankind believes in a Creator. Not wanting to make this about evolution, but millions of scientists and highly educated professionals do not believe that materialism can account for the biodiversity we observe. This does not even begin to address the necessity of life appearing from non life, the problem of irreducible complexity etc, etc, etc.

I only bring this up to establish the fact that most people don't see the evidence to prove a self existing universe, spontaneous generation of life from non life. To them, these concepts ALSO appear like "fairy tales and myths" as you state.

To believers in an intelligent creator, it is unimaginable that a Creator would create the possibility of evil, and not have some mechanism to deal with it. This would make him the actual foment-er of evil, its purveyor and enabler. This doesn't jive with our own PROVABLE posession of morality.

Since we globally have certain notions on morality, right and wrong, ought and ought not etc. that are unique to humans only, then the issue of Salvation is important to humanity, because the issue of evil and judgement is important to humanity as well.

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Perry

Perhaps this will cause some ask why they accept any version. So I see this as having a potentially practical outcome

So your objective is to introduce as much doubt as possible so that people would reject the concept of Salvation in general? I would think that you would need to start with Judgement first and show why that concept is false.

But, if God doesn't judge, wouldn't that make him an enabler of sin? Also, If we say that God shouldn't judge, isn't that an "ought" statement? On what basis or by what authority should God do or not do anything.

Where does that moral judgement come from.... random chance?

17

The 26 Prophetic Failures of Watchtower’s Most Heralded Date, 1914

by FatFreek 2005 in

below is a paste of the front of this, my recent, essay.

most jws, and lurkers here, have never really thought of the scope of watchtower's 1914 prophecy.

to them, 1914 was a simple one and done -- a mistake was made and it's been corrected.

Perry

Good work!

The 1914 obsession of the WT can never be fully understood until you realize this was THE mechanism by which they stole peoples' salvation by mean of the New Covenant.

By time warping everyone and getting them to believe that the gentile times "church age" had ended, they then began to make the argument that it really wasn't disobedience to Jesus to reject the New Covenant at each Memorial ...for general members. The heaven vs. earth destination they harped on, is a non-issue as it pertains to Salvation from judgement.

Since the New Covenant (blood covenant) guaranteed salvation, and since the JW's were no longer open to accepting Jesus' offer, the "need" arose for people to work for their Salvation instead of just accepting it like previous generations were able to do.

The Watchtower was all to eager to step in and provide for this new-found "need" for salvation.

What a happifying provision that turned out to be..... not.

The really ridiculous thing is, that the tribulation saints (and yes they are a different group than the Church-Age Beleivers) are still declared righteous by the exact same means as previous believers were ... by the blood covenant.

The great crowd washed their robes and made them white in the blood [covenant] of the lamb". - Revelation

But, by getting people to believe that they were in a future group spoken of in Revelation, they were able to build on this difference and argue that Salvation was also by a different means.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the father but by me" (The New Covenant) - Jesus

9

Evaluation of my dream..Give it a shot..

by James Mixon in

jw
friends

i'am chased by monsters and jw's, i turn and confront the whole gang and they all embrace me.lol.

Perry

Definitely the love bombing at the Mormon church..... but bad guacamole has been known to have similar effects.

29

The true cost of being raised as a witness

by stuckinarut2 in

how do you view your upbringing as a witness?.

most of us who were raised as witnesses would appreciate that some aspects of our upbringing were ok. a foundation and measure of stability came with it.. but, it struck me too, that we also lost so very much!

and we lost a lot of potential.. by this i mean, we need to look at not just what we lost, or what was deprived of us, but what that ended up costing us as adults into the future.. if i take $10 from you, you have lost just $10.. but, if you were going to use that $10 to buy something that would end up earning you $1000, then i actually took $1000 from you!.

Perry

The JW lifestyle is all about placing on hold literally everything because everyone is hunkered down for the Big A. ......A siege mentality.

As a result of this fear, most JW parents are emotionally unavailable to varying degrees. It is this emotional unavailability that takes the largest toll in my opinion, aside from the obvious spiritual abuse. It has consequences on the family even after a person leaves.

This is an excerpt from a relevant article"

Loss of hope, faith, and joy: For many adults who were raised under an emotionally void parent there is a deep feeling of loss and grief. The “loss” of a parent who is still living and breathing can seem like the most tragic experience. To look at a parent in the eyes or hear their voice and yet feel so far away, is tragic. The inability to connect to the very person who brought you into this world is tragic. It is like a tease. It is like a distant fantasy. Sadly, the adult child begins to feel a sense of grief and loss of hope, faith, and joy. Sometimes adult children internalize their emotions and begin to feel depressed, suicidal, or self-injurious. This is often when substance abuse begins.

Article

19

Back again to say hi! Life update after walking away from the cult.

by Darkknight757 in

i hope all is well.

my last post over a month ago was going to be the last considering i wanted to get away from all things jw but this place is much harder to ignore than previously thought.

life has taken some very interesting turns since late last year.

Perry

Well done!

That's moving pretty fast.

36

In Your Opinion Do Today's Elders Recognize That The Religion Is BS?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i always wondered that while i was in especially when i was an elder.

i recognize that some people,elders included are brain-dead.

but do you think that the average older today knows it's all nonsense?

Perry

I once shared some information with an elder and his wife (both who happened to work for me) of a pretty benign nature illustrating how the WT counseling methods might not be the best. I presented some Awake articles and quotes to illustrate my points. The response?

I was told to be careful, because they once knew of a person who started questioning small things and now they are out of the "truth". They even agreed with my assessment, but that was irrelevant !

For life-long elders, "the club" is all that matters. The club is their idol, their object of worship, and they are its priests.

Knowing TTATT isn't nearly as important as protecting their idol. They don't want to to see their idol fall. So, most will go along with just about anything.

That is what I saw. They are having their reward in full. Judgement is coming. They need a Savior like everyone else.

26

Does Paul preach a fundamentally different religion than Jesus?

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

controversy has arisen regarding jesus versus paul as scholars debate the different emphases and messages of jesus and paul.1 jesus preached the kingdom of heaven.

paul did not.

paul preached justification by faith alone.

Perry

Jesus also warns His disciples, “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves”

In Luke 6: 37; Jesus obviously wasn't stating that we throw out discernment along with hyper-judgementalism.