Posts by Perry

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Perry

Paul was the earliest chronologically. Neither he nor any of the Gospel writers had either seen or heard Jesus, and they wrote decades after the "Jesus-event", relying on oral tradition - not facts.

Doug,

There are a couple of manuscripts that pre-date Paul's writings. Notice the large number of writings that are within the lifespans of the eyewitnesses. Where is the back-lash if this was all fake news?

Year Document

30-60	Passion Narrative
40-80	Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60	1 Thessalonians
50-60	Philippians
50-60	Galatians
50-60	1 Corinthians
50-60	2 Corinthians
50-60	Romans
50-60	Philemon
50-80	Colossians
50-90	Signs Gospel
50-95	Book of Hebrews
50-120	Didache
50-140	Gospel of Thomas
50-140	Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-150	Apocalypse of Adam
50-150	Eugnostos the Blessed
50-200	Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80	Gospel of Mark
70-100	Epistle of James
70-120	Egerton Gospel
70-160	Gospel of Peter
70-160	Secret Mark
70-200	Fayyum Fragment
70-200	Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200	Mara Bar Serapion
80-100	2 Thessalonians
80-100	Ephesians
80-100	Gospel of Matthew
80-110	1 Peter
80-120	Epistle of Barnabas
80-130	Gospel of Luke
80-130	Acts of the Apostles
80-140	1 Clement
80-150	Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150	Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250	Christian Sibyllines
90-95	Revelation
90-120	Gospel of John
90-120	1 John
90-120	2 John
90-120	3 John
90-120	Epistle of Jude

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Perry

Good questions Doug.

If as you say Jesus said that a person only needed to believe in him, he is not saying "Believe that I am going to be killed and raised from the dead". Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the synoptists speak of obtaining salvation and eternal life in terms of obedience and good works (sheep-goats, etc.). Do the Gospel writers relate salvation to Jesus' resurrection?

Jesus death & resurrection are inseparable. One is the price, the other is the proof. Right from the introduction we see the issue of Salvation. Matt 1:21 states that Mary “will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

The Jewish people, with fifteen centuries of history lessons on how to wash away sins ( animal blood), knew that the wages of sin was death. To save a person from their sins was synonymous with saving someone from judgement in their minds.

The name Jesus is not just spoken but interpreted: it means YHWH saves. That is the proverbial "very definition" of the man Jesus and his purpose. John the Baptist introduced him as "the [sacrificial] lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. He was born for the purpose of sacrificial death.... Born to die a death he didn't deserve to pay a debt he didn't owe.

In 20:28, he says “the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” This echos Hosea 13: 14 - I WILL RANSOM THEM FROM THE POWER OF THE GRAVE; I WILL REDEEM THEM FROM DEATH

In John 6 Jesus is clear about the role of belief AND his death.

said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.... And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day....Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.... I am the living bread which came down from heaven... and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Clearly Jesus related Salvation to his death and links to the proof of the resurrection

John 10: 17 - I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

You wrote:

Paul was the earliest chronologically. Neither he nor any of the Gospel writers had either seen or heard Jesus, and they wrote decades after the "Jesus-event", relying on oral tradition - not facts.

Acts 10:

even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Eye-Witness Testimony isn't facts? It is some of the strongest evidence allowed in court.

There is no need for a Creator for reason and logic to exist

Perhaps it is more accurate to say that if God doesn't exist, you would have no earthly idea if your reason and logic was reasonable or logical at all. This the ultimate betrayal of materialism.

For instance, a person may invite you to a picnic next Thursday and say that they "know" that it will be good weather. When you arrive on Thursday, the same person declares, "see I told you that I knew that the weather would be nice today".

Just because the materialist's logic "worked" on that day, there is no reason to believe that the logic would work on any other given day, time or place, like the weather. Why, because supposedly chance and randomness birthed it. Randomness, like the weather is constantly changing. But this is not how the materialists speaks about his logic.

Instead , they rely on the biblical model of stable, reliable unchanging logic and practicality, even while claiming randomness to be its author. This is illogical. You expect logic to be the same in China the same as it is in Europe or Antarctica. This is the ultimate tattle-tale of the "unbelievers" logic. Even if you were to find truth or logic, you would not be able to "know" for certain because of the self-imposed idolatry of chance. The most you could say is that it worked on this day or that.

Christians don't have this problem. We have sound reason to claim that logic should or ought to be the same everywhere, regardless of circumstance (weather) because God is its author.

Knowledge ultimately suffers the same fate as morals in a materialistic worldview that I described in an earlier post on this thread.

Hope I didn't step on any toes.

Anyone up for a picnic next Thursday? I "know" that it won't rain that day.

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Perry

Perry,
I believe there is power in doubting, questioning.

Doug, I looked at your outline and it looks like a daunting task. I wish you well in your endeavor.

Jesus said if a person believed on him, he would be saved from death and judgment. He raised people from the dead, predicted his own death and resurrection, and did it. No one was saying in the the 1st century that this did not happen. Not his enemies, no one. It is the evidence of the resurrection that makes Salvation so hard to ignore.

Looking at your statement above I don't know if you realize that this is a statement of belief.

You believe in doubting and questioning, Who? Is there room in your worldview for those who don't "believe" as you do and who personally experience power from belief and obedience to God? ....especially on the doctrine of salvation?

Is your doubting limited to just God, or can you objectively apply that standard to yourself and the sources you wish to interpret?

You have already stated that a disbelief in Salvation would be a practical outcome of your investigation before you even hardly get started. How can you be sure that your research will not be effected by what YOU deem practical and effect your research and selections accordingly?

And BTW, how do you know what is practical and logical? What basis do you have for trusting your own logic? If you are a product of a mixture of blind chance and environment, isn't anyone's logic as good as another? Of course not, we have logic and expect it from those we talk to because our Creator is logical, ordered, and practical. You are employing one of HIS attributes (not randomness), one that you couldn't not possible know that you have for a certainty without Him, to try and demolish a key feature of God's wisdom - Salvation.

This problem of logic is not a problem for the Christian. We expect science, language, information etc., etc, etc. to be logical, ordered, & intelligent because the Source is all those things. I believe that you truly, deep down believe these things too. Otherwise, why not just get a few million letters and put them in a tumbler, start the wheel and wait for your research paper to get done?

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Perry

Morality? That's an easy one. Humans created it because it was a good set of rules to make cooperation within the group run smoothly.

never a jw,

Your materialistic explanation is intellectually bankrupt and is wrought with ethical problems. Secularists can be moral for sure, just as anyone can. The basic ability and sometimes even the "moral goods" are there too, but that's not the issue.

Objective morals are those that are positioned outside of yourself or your group. Subjective morals are those that depend on you, your situation, group, culture, preferences etc. Subjective morals change and differ from person to person. A subjective moral system, by its nature is relativistic, dangerous, can change, can become self-contradictory and can lead to anarchy. This is the best a materialistic view of morals can offer.

I believe Christianity offers more: ....do not lie, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not bear false witness, etc. These morals don’t change depending on your opinion, situation or group. They are based on God’s character; and since God doesn’t change, these morals don’t either.

In the event of a socioeconomic meltdown type event, where you notice an armed figure approaching you while on a dark road one night trying to take food to your family; Would you rather the stranger be:

1. A Christian who lives by - right is right regardless of circumstance and who believes God is watching and will provide as well as judge

OR

2. A Secularist who sees a "need" or a "benefit" and proceeds to adapt his morals to suit the encounter and the needs of his group?

Moral positioning effects worldviews too:

Worldview A: (your statement not mine)

I find Christians quite annoying. Their arrogance, supported by ignorance and credulity, is the main problem

Worldview B

I find you to have worth, dignity and validity based on being made in the image of God. Regardless of your "doings" (which I may not agree with), you are a human "being".

Morals have consequences in many other unintended ways too.

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Perry

If the readers decide to reject the concept of salvation, Doug unintentionally is doing a great service to humanity

I am sure Doug is a very fine researcher. But he as much as says that this is his intentional purpose or at least a "practical" outcome in his estimation. That is what I questioned.

The vast majority of mankind believes in a Creator. Not wanting to make this about evolution, but millions of scientists and highly educated professionals do not believe that materialism can account for the biodiversity we observe. This does not even begin to address the necessity of life appearing from non life, the problem of irreducible complexity etc, etc, etc.

I only bring this up to establish the fact that most people don't see the evidence to prove a self existing universe, spontaneous generation of life from non life. To them, these concepts ALSO appear like "fairy tales and myths" as you state.

To believers in an intelligent creator, it is unimaginable that a Creator would create the possibility of evil, and not have some mechanism to deal with it. This would make him the actual foment-er of evil, its purveyor and enabler. This doesn't jive with our own PROVABLE posession of morality.

Since we globally have certain notions on morality, right and wrong, ought and ought not etc. that are unique to humans only, then the issue of Salvation is important to humanity, because the issue of evil and judgement is important to humanity as well.

20

Take a look over my shoulder

by Doug Mason in

i have assigned myself a probably impossible task: i want to see if i can pick out the highlights of the evolution of judaeo/christian soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

i am making available the first draft very rough ideas of two chapters at:.

http://www.jwstudies.com/take_a_look_over_my_shoulder.pdf .

Perry

Perhaps this will cause some ask why they accept any version. So I see this as having a potentially practical outcome

So your objective is to introduce as much doubt as possible so that people would reject the concept of Salvation in general? I would think that you would need to start with Judgement first and show why that concept is false.

But, if God doesn't judge, wouldn't that make him an enabler of sin? Also, If we say that God shouldn't judge, isn't that an "ought" statement? On what basis or by what authority should God do or not do anything.

Where does that moral judgement come from.... random chance?

17

The 26 Prophetic Failures of Watchtower’s Most Heralded Date, 1914

by FatFreek 2005 in

below is a paste of the front of this, my recent, essay.

most jws, and lurkers here, have never really thought of the scope of watchtower's 1914 prophecy.

to them, 1914 was a simple one and done -- a mistake was made and it's been corrected.

Perry

Good work!

The 1914 obsession of the WT can never be fully understood until you realize this was THE mechanism by which they stole peoples' salvation by mean of the New Covenant.

By time warping everyone and getting them to believe that the gentile times "church age" had ended, they then began to make the argument that it really wasn't disobedience to Jesus to reject the New Covenant at each Memorial ...for general members. The heaven vs. earth destination they harped on, is a non-issue as it pertains to Salvation from judgement.

Since the New Covenant (blood covenant) guaranteed salvation, and since the JW's were no longer open to accepting Jesus' offer, the "need" arose for people to work for their Salvation instead of just accepting it like previous generations were able to do.

The Watchtower was all to eager to step in and provide for this new-found "need" for salvation.

What a happifying provision that turned out to be..... not.

The really ridiculous thing is, that the tribulation saints (and yes they are a different group than the Church-Age Beleivers) are still declared righteous by the exact same means as previous believers were ... by the blood covenant.

The great crowd washed their robes and made them white in the blood [covenant] of the lamb". - Revelation

But, by getting people to believe that they were in a future group spoken of in Revelation, they were able to build on this difference and argue that Salvation was also by a different means.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the father but by me" (The New Covenant) - Jesus

9

Evaluation of my dream..Give it a shot..

by James Mixon in

jw
friends

i'am chased by monsters and jw's, i turn and confront the whole gang and they all embrace me.lol.

Perry

Definitely the love bombing at the Mormon church..... but bad guacamole has been known to have similar effects.