Posts by Someguywhocares

55

JW's And Their Education Level

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

i was thinking about this.... in my congregation, i was literally the only one with universitary education, out of a cong from around 110 people.... and we're very close to a very big university, which makes it even weirder.. on the other hand... sooo many here with their own business, mostly small cleaning businesses.

cleaning windows, or cleaning somewhere else... painters.... all have jobs that do not require any education level, cos they never had a decent education.. how is the composition of the jw people/congs that you know about?.

how many painters... cleaners... compared to people with jobs that require higher education?.

Someguywhocares

Sylvia...that post made me laugh...thanks. Always good to laugh but it's even better when one finds oneself on their 3rd day of insomnia. Lol

10

HIGHER EDUCATION, THE BIBLE, AND THE WTBTS / GBoJW

by Nicholaus Kopernicus in

the disdain which the wtbts / gbojw has for higher education is well known among jw's and jw dissenters.

the specious rationale for such disdain is also well known.

however, it is a fact that there is no scriptural authority for..... a) prohibiting education at any level for another person.

Someguywhocares

I am new here, I honestly stumbled upon this site - about 2 hours ago - for the first time in my life due to generalized searching for, and reading of, the news after the Russian results.

I'm not really sure how well this forum does regarding notifications when someone comments on a, nearly, one month old thread and thereby I have no idea if this will be seen.

Anyway, I digress...

I am - most likely will - not be getting too engaged in discussions over all. However, this was the thread, this was the topic, that piqued my interest enough that it warranted account creation.

Please Note: I am apologizing now for the breadth & depth of this post. I know this is regarding JW's and their respective level, or lack thereof, educational or academic achievement/completion and its demographic juxtaposition with geographic factors, proximity to centers for higher education, other socio- or communal groupings and the personal, professional (if it can even be considered 'professional') successes therein or, again, a lack thereof. I promise that my contribution in this regard is contained herein but I ask your collective patience with my overall post as I am of the belief that, contextually speaking, it is prudent to provide my background; to whit, I believe it will prove warranted prior to espousal of any personal paradigm & for the forming of your own in retort. Therefore, I continue forthwith. •

About me:

I am a 35 year old male in Utah, USA. I was born to Jehovah's Witness parents & large JW families on both sides. *Insert stereotypical JW upbringing details here*, yada yada, 1st talk on TMS was the #2/Bible Reading (with Intro & Conclusion back then) when I was 5 years old, Unbaptized Publisher when I was 6 years old, Baptized at 14 years old, Auxiliary Pioneered every July, etc.

I was Appointed as a Ministerial Servant when I was 16 years old (to be fair, it was 6 days prior to my 17th birthday), blah blah blah, interviewed (starting on the actual date I was baptized) on 6 District Conventions & 7 Circuit Assemblies/Assembly Days, had 2 different 15 minute District Convention talks (ages 18 & 21) & 3 different 10 minute Circuit talks (ages 18, 19 & 20), you know the drill.

I'll apologize in advance for the braggadocio here but I was "The Golden Boy" of JW's, lol. I was the one that my parents friends look at and say "Hey, BXXX, can you please wait until our daughter is old enough so she can marry you?" (Let's put a pin in that statement please; weird doesn't always demand dissection, am I right?)

In amongst all of those details was the fact that I was one of two Ministerial Servants in our congregation and the other was a 90 year old blind man with two hip replacements; anyone want to guess which of the two MS's did 'all the congregational work'?

If there was a problem, yo' I had to solve it.

Ultimately, it meant that I had the *Privilege* of being responsible for every department - I mean *every* department:

Literature coordinator for 3 congregations, territories, magazines, accounts, sound, attendant, Assistant TMS Overseer, TMS Scheduling & Assignments, Assistant Congregation Book Study Overseer, Public Talk Coordinator, cleaning & maintenance, hospitality coordinator, field service coordinator for a Service Overseer with health problems, the Presiding Overseer delegated the scheduling of the Service Meeting to me as well scheduling the chairman & WT readers.

One final detail is that I also gathered, formatted, put together & distributed binders containing:

All source or study material, created my own table of contents, an index that I took time to create, loose leaf notepaper, 1 blue, 1 black, 1 red pen & 1 highlighter for every Kingdom Ministry School for Elders & Servants.

Once completed, I provided a binder to every Elder & MS in the District (and the DO & CO) along with shipping some to various family & friends around the country; NOTE: every aspect of this *privilege project*, from supplies, toner cartridges, driving all over to deliver them, shipping the very long distance binders, was all done out of my own pocket & at my own expense. Lest we forget to *count the cost* that would be MY TIME to do the work. (It was no less than a 4 month project every year)

(P.S. All of that congregational stuff began immediately upon my appointment as a Servant when I was 16, I began making those binders when I was 14 years old)

Finally, when I was 23, I pretty much "snapped" from burn out. I, quite literally, walked up to the PO after a Tuesday night meeting and said "I'm stepping aside as a Ministerial Servant, effective immediately, please find other arrangements. This will help you transition..." and I handed him 3 CDs I had burned that evening before the meeting which contain all data for everything I was responsible for.

I walked out to my car, and I was done.

*With that out of the way, the last statement to make is that I will be seeking to limit the conversations in which I engage within the forum. I'll freely admit that there is a side of me that does indeed maintain *some* strong agreement for aspects of the organization; notably, there are also plenty of areas in which I have *never in my life* agreed with as well as yet other topics upon which I feel are truthful in the strictest sense of doctrine & even find the accuracy of the foundation to biblically supported yet I know they are implausible or even impossible in a real world setting. Thus, taking that all into account, please respect that I - at times - will decline to get into hairsplitting or otherwise *heated* debates to which I see no intellectual, psychological, emotional or other type of benefit.*

If you read that entire diatribe & are with me thus far, thank you for your patience! Heretofore my remaining comments are topically on point. •

Regarding the topic of Education, this is one of those areas in which I have always - even as a 'mere young boy' - had an internally vehement struggle, negative perspective and complete disagreement with.

To my mind, if fundamental to ones teaching or topical 'education' - in this case, religious education - is that:

'...no man knows the day or the hour..', that '...not even Christ Jesus knows...' and that '...it will come as a thief in the night...'

Than, in that case, I am left with a surfeit glut of questions & comments I'd love to levy at the GB but I'll condense it down to its deepest root as a single - and, I think, a pretty weighty - question:

With those baseline scriptural references at the very core of 'the end of the system of things', HOW is it anything other than pompously far reaching & arrogantly short sighted to BOTH imply the end in 1975 and to *encourage a person's bible trained conscience* to forget about education so as to pursue greater theocratic activity?

Whether it's 1975, or another example, implying ANY sort of future *possible* date as the end is simply not in keeping with 'no man shall know the day and the hour'. Furthermore, by implying such things in combination with such negative commentary on continued education, HOW are we not crippling 'the friends' to, what is now, 42 years watching as the 'scene of this world is changing'?

In fact, can I not reasonably posit that the condemnation of attending College has now had a diametrically opposed effect in that many are now forced to take multiple, low paying, jobs with a higher grand total of labor hours just to make ends meet which thus deals a fatal blow to any hopes or ability to increase their theocratic activity; is not the imposition of said educational restraint the causal link to this real world, factual, problem?

Is it not fair to postulate that, had these individuals been afforded the opportunity to truly 'live their lives as though Armageddon is coming tomorrow, but PLAN their lives as though it's never coming at all' and determine what educational course was best for them, personally, that they may in fact find themselves able to obtain employment of 30-40 hours per week - perhaps even working from home - and have even more time available for theocratic needs were they to have had a College Degree?

Were we to exercise 'wisdom & discernment', could it not also be plausible that, by having obtained their degrees, these educated brothers & sisters would have managed to start and operate small businesses with far greater success, scope, revenue and profitability which would allow them to remain in even greater control of their work schedule so as to avail themselves to the kingdom effort on a - potentially - unparalleled scale sans working 3 different minimum wage jobs at 80 hours per week AND be able to offer the added benefit of now helping others in the congregation by hiring them & providing them a work schedule immensely more conducive to the kingdom work than anything this system provides?

**I could go on and on, obviously. Nevertheless, I've made my point.**

So, without any further ado, here are the final details about myself which pertain to this topic:

Graduated High School at 16 by accelerating the coursework ON MY OWN.

GPA at graduation: 4.0 out of 4.0 (straight A's)

Through a chance encounter with the Dean of a University, he arranged for me to take the SATs and ACTs 'for fun'. Results?

SATs: 1590 of 1600

ACTs: 38 of 40

Upon receiving those scores, the aforementioned Dean asked if I wanted to test my I.Q. Results?

I.Q.: 162

Upon receiving that result, the aforementioned Dean proceeded to offer me a FULL Academic Scholarship to his university; COMPLETELY 'free ride' on everything: books, tuition & dorms, etc. although I lived close enough at the time that it was only a 20 minute drive from home.

The name of that university?

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

You read that correctly...M.I.T.; the very bastion of scientific achievement & capability, a place where people like John Nash & Stephen *effing* Hawking can/could/did show up to lecture.

The result of that offer?

I turned it down because it was a 'worldly desire to pursue a college education'.

AND...I was tempted to accept it but - and this is always a great thought to reminisce on - had I decided to accept said scholarship, well that's just it, there was no scenario where I would have accepted because when my parents heard of this - as well as hearing that I was considering it (even though I was 99% sure I'd decline of my accord) - they made it QUITE CLEAR that I wouldn't be accepting the offer.

After all, I was 16 years old and a minor. It was ultimately their decision to control that outcome and they emphatically informed me that it was "not where a Christian belongs, a Christian 'keeps on putting first the kingdom & his righteousness' and that my good grades in high school are all that I needed in order for me to get a job and then go to Ministerial Training School so I could be sent where the need was great".

End result from THAT decision?

My I.Q. tested out 13 points higher, 175, only 3 years later when I was 19. However, I entered the workforce with my high school diploma and began working jobs that - although they paid 'decently' in the $50k to $70k range - were jobs that didn't just require a 'pound of flesh' through how many hours I worked but also a 'pound of my flesh' in a physical sense.

The inglorious end of my tale being that I am now 35, I have a litany of medical conditions, my body is 'falling apart' so badly that I am now considered permanently disabled. I can walk (barely) and have a fair quality of life, all things considered. But, I am 35 and have been told by doctors that my body is 85, it won't get any better and they are in shock that I actually am walking still.

I have had 6 surgeries in the last 2 years and need to endure at least 5 more in the next 12 to 18 months and then - hopefully - I won't need any for about 5 years.

Right now I currently have 3 fractured discs in my lower back - yes, I have a broken back - along with a minor ACL tear in my right knee & minor MCL tear in my left knee and those 3 problems are the 'less crucial' to deal with. Consider that. 'Ruminate' on that.

My entire Spinal column has begun to form calcium deposits which will lead to my spine fusing to a solid state but - by planning to undergo surgery every 5 years for the rest of my life - we can prolong the inevitable by *hopefully* 20 years.

As if I'll be alive at 55!

It's both a wonderful escape from my reality, as well as a thoroughly infuriatingly depressing exercise, to sit and think about "what if I went to MIT? What if I put my brain to real use...?".

*The End*

46

Instructions To Elders Re: Pursuing Higher Education

by baldeagle in

jw
friends

underlining is mine.. march 6, 2012 letter.

pursue divine education:some of our brothers are pursuing higher education, feeling that they can acquire a measure of financial security.

as you are aware, the educational system varies from country to country.

Someguywhocares

I am new here, I honestly stumbled upon this site - about 2 hours ago - for the first time in my life due to generalized searching for, and reading of, the news after the Russian results.

I'm not really sure how well this forum does regarding notifications when someone comments on a, nearly, one month old thread and thereby I have no idea if this will be seen.

Anyway, I digress...

I am - most likely will - not be getting too engaged in discussions over all. However, this was the thread, this was the topic, that piqued my interest enough that it warranted account creation.

Please Note: I am apologizing now for the breadth & depth of this post. I know this is regarding JW's and their respective level, or lack thereof, educational or academic achievement/completion and its demographic juxtaposition with geographic factors, proximity to centers for higher education, other socio- or communal groupings and the personal, professional (if it can even be considered 'professional') successes therein or, again, a lack thereof. I promise that my contribution in this regard is contained herein but I ask your collective patience with my overall post as I am of the belief that, contextually speaking, it is prudent to provide my background; to whit, I believe it will prove warranted prior to espousal of any personal paradigm & for the forming of your own in retort. Therefore, I continue forthwith. •

About me:

I am a 35 year old male in Utah, USA. I was born to Jehovah's Witness parents & large JW families on both sides. *Insert stereotypical JW upbringing details here*, yada yada, 1st talk on TMS was the #2/Bible Reading (with Intro & Conclusion back then) when I was 5 years old, Unbaptized Publisher when I was 6 years old, Baptized at 14 years old, Auxiliary Pioneered every July, etc.

I was Appointed as a Ministerial Servant when I was 16 years old (to be fair, it was 6 days prior to my 17th birthday), blah blah blah, interviewed (starting on the actual date I was baptized) on 6 District Conventions & 7 Circuit Assemblies/Assembly Days, had 2 different 15 minute District Convention talks (ages 18 & 21) & 3 different 10 minute Circuit talks (ages 18, 19 & 20), you know the drill.

I'll apologize in advance for the braggadocio here but I was "The Golden Boy" of JW's, lol. I was the one that my parents friends look at and say "Hey, BXXX, can you please wait until our daughter is old enough so she can marry you?" (Let's put a pin in that statement please; weird doesn't always demand dissection, am I right?)

In amongst all of those details was the fact that I was one of two Ministerial Servants in our congregation and the other was a 90 year old blind man with two hip replacements; anyone want to guess which of the two MS's did 'all the congregational work'?

If there was a problem, yo' I had to solve it.

Ultimately, it meant that I had the *Privilege* of being responsible for every department - I mean *every* department:

Literature coordinator for 3 congregations, territories, magazines, accounts, sound, attendant, Assistant TMS Overseer, TMS Scheduling & Assignments, Assistant Congregation Book Study Overseer, Public Talk Coordinator, cleaning & maintenance, hospitality coordinator, field service coordinator for a Service Overseer with health problems, the Presiding Overseer delegated the scheduling of the Service Meeting to me as well scheduling the chairman & WT readers.

One final detail is that I also gathered, formatted, put together & distributed binders containing:

All source or study material, created my own table of contents, an index that I took time to create, loose leaf notepaper, 1 blue, 1 black, 1 red pen & 1 highlighter for every Kingdom Ministry School for Elders & Servants.

Once completed, I provided a binder to every Elder & MS in the District (and the DO & CO) along with shipping some to various family & friends around the country; NOTE: every aspect of this *privilege project*, from supplies, toner cartridges, driving all over to deliver them, shipping the very long distance binders, was all done out of my own pocket & at my own expense. Lest we forget to *count the cost* that would be MY TIME to do the work. (It was no less than a 4 month project every year)

(P.S. All of that congregational stuff began immediately upon my appointment as a Servant when I was 16, I began making those binders when I was 14 years old)

Finally, when I was 23, I pretty much "snapped" from burn out. I, quite literally, walked up to the PO after a Tuesday night meeting and said "I'm stepping aside as a Ministerial Servant, effective immediately, please find other arrangements. This will help you transition..." and I handed him 3 CDs I had burned that evening before the meeting which contain all data for everything I was responsible for.

I walked out to my car, and I was done.

*With that out of the way, the last statement to make is that I will be seeking to limit the conversations in which I engage within the forum. I'll freely admit that there is a side of me that does indeed maintain *some* strong agreement for aspects of the organization; notably, there are also plenty of areas in which I have *never in my life* agreed with as well as yet other topics upon which I feel are truthful in the strictest sense of doctrine & even find the accuracy of the foundation to biblically supported yet I know they are implausible or even impossible in a real world setting. Thus, taking that all into account, please respect that I - at times - will decline to get into hairsplitting or otherwise *heated* debates to which I see no intellectual, psychological, emotional or other type of benefit.*

If you read that entire diatribe & are with me thus far, thank you for your patience! Heretofore my remaining comments are topically on point. •

Regarding the topic of Education, this is one of those areas in which I have always - even as a 'mere young boy' - had an internally vehement struggle, negative perspective and complete disagreement with.

To my mind, if fundamental to ones teaching or topical 'education' - in this case, religious education - is that:

'...no man knows the day or the hour..', that '...not even Christ Jesus knows...' and that '...it will come as a thief in the night...'

Than, in that case, I am left with a surfeit glut of questions & comments I'd love to levy at the GB but I'll condense it down to its deepest root as a single - and, I think, a pretty weighty - question:

With those baseline scriptural references at the very core of 'the end of the system of things', HOW is it anything other than pompously far reaching & arrogantly short sighted to BOTH imply the end in 1975 and to *encourage a person's bible trained conscience* to forget about education so as to pursue greater theocratic activity?

Whether it's 1975, or another example, implying ANY sort of future *possible* date as the end is simply not in keeping with 'no man shall know the day and the hour'. Furthermore, by implying such things in combination with such negative commentary on continued education, HOW are we not crippling 'the friends' to, what is now, 42 years watching as the 'scene of this world is changing'?

In fact, can I not reasonably posit that the condemnation of attending College has now had a diametrically opposed effect in that many are now forced to take multiple, low paying, jobs with a higher grand total of labor hours just to make ends meet which thus deals a fatal blow to any hopes or ability to increase their theocratic activity; is not the imposition of said educational restraint the causal link to this real world, factual, problem?

Is it not fair to postulate that, had these individuals been afforded the opportunity to truly 'live their lives as though Armageddon is coming tomorrow, but PLAN their lives as though it's never coming at all' and determine what educational course was best for them, personally, that they may in fact find themselves able to obtain employment of 30-40 hours per week - perhaps even working from home - and have even more time available for theocratic needs were they to have had a College Degree?

Were we to exercise 'wisdom & discernment', could it not also be plausible that, by having obtained their degrees, these educated brothers & sisters would have managed to start and operate small businesses with far greater success, scope, revenue and profitability which would allow them to remain in even greater control of their work schedule so as to avail themselves to the kingdom effort on a - potentially - unparalleled scale sans working 3 different minimum wage jobs at 80 hours per week AND be able to offer the added benefit of now helping others in the congregation by hiring them & providing them a work schedule immensely more conducive to the kingdom work than anything this system provides?

**I could go on and on, obviously. Nevertheless, I've made my point.**

So, without any further ado, here are the final details about myself which pertain to this topic:

Graduated High School at 16 by accelerating the coursework ON MY OWN.

GPA at graduation: 4.0 out of 4.0 (straight A's)

Through a chance encounter with the Dean of a University, he arranged for me to take the SATs and ACTs 'for fun'. Results?

SATs: 1590 of 1600

ACTs: 38 of 40

Upon receiving those scores, the aforementioned Dean asked if I wanted to test my I.Q. Results?

I.Q.: 162

Upon receiving that result, the aforementioned Dean proceeded to offer me a FULL Academic Scholarship to his university; COMPLETELY 'free ride' on everything: books, tuition & dorms, etc. although I lived close enough at the time that it was only a 20 minute drive from home.

The name of that university?

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

You read that correctly...M.I.T.; the very bastion of scientific achievement & capability, a place where people like John Nash & Stephen *effing* Hawking can/could/did show up to lecture.

The result of that offer?

I turned it down because it was a 'worldly desire to pursue a college education'.

AND...I was tempted to accept it but - and this is always a great thought to reminisce on - had I decided to accept said scholarship, well that's just it, there was no scenario where I would have accepted because when my parents heard of this - as well as hearing that I was considering it (even though I was 99% sure I'd decline of my accord) - they made it QUITE CLEAR that I wouldn't be accepting the offer.

After all, I was 16 years old and a minor. It was ultimately their decision to control that outcome and they emphatically informed me that it was "not where a Christian belongs, a Christian 'keeps on putting first the kingdom & his righteousness' and that my good grades in high school are all that I needed in order for me to get a job and then go to Ministerial Training School so I could be sent where the need was great".

End result from THAT decision?

My I.Q. tested out 13 points higher, 175, only 3 years later when I was 19. However, I entered the workforce with my high school diploma and began working jobs that - although they paid 'decently' in the $50k to $70k range - were jobs that didn't just require a 'pound of flesh' through how many hours I worked but also a 'pound of my flesh' in a physical sense.

The inglorious end of my tale being that I am now 35, I have a litany of medical conditions, my body is 'falling apart' so badly that I am now considered permanently disabled. I can walk (barely) and have a fair quality of life, all things considered. But, I am 35 and have been told by doctors that my body is 85, it won't get any better and they are in shock that I actually am walking still.

I have had 6 surgeries in the last 2 years and need to endure at least 5 more in the next 12 to 18 months and then - hopefully - I won't need any for about 5 years.

Right now I currently have 3 fractured discs in my lower back - yes, I have a broken back - along with a minor ACL tear in my right knee & minor MCL tear in my left knee and those 3 problems are the 'less crucial' to deal with. Consider that. 'Ruminate' on that.

My entire Spinal column has begun to form calcium deposits which will lead to my spine fusing to a solid state but - by planning to undergo surgery every 5 years for the rest of my life - we can prolong the inevitable by *hopefully* 20 years.

As if I'll be alive at 55!

It's both a wonderful escape from my reality, as well as a thoroughly infuriatingly depressing exercise, to sit and think about "what if I went to MIT? What if I put my brain to real use...?".

*The End*

21

"Higher Education" Follow Up

by XBEHERE in

jw
friends

this is a follow up to my previous thread.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/268693/1/they-are-definitely-attacking-higher-education.

so we had our co visit and we were quizzed about the "problem" of higher education as well.

Someguywhocares

I am new here, I honestly stumbled upon this site - about 2 hours ago - for the first time in my life due to generalized searching for, and reading of, the news after the Russian results.

I'm not really sure how well this forum does regarding notifications when someone comments on a, nearly, one month old thread and thereby I have no idea if this will be seen.

Anyway, I digress...

I am - most likely will - not be getting too engaged in discussions over all. However, this was the thread, this was the topic, that piqued my interest enough that it warranted account creation.

Please Note: I am apologizing now for the breadth & depth of this post. I know this is regarding JW's and their respective level, or lack thereof, educational or academic achievement/completion and its demographic juxtaposition with geographic factors, proximity to centers for higher education, other socio- or communal groupings and the personal, professional (if it can even be considered 'professional') successes therein or, again, a lack thereof. I promise that my contribution in this regard is contained herein but I ask your collective patience with my overall post as I am of the belief that, contextually speaking, it is prudent to provide my background; to whit, I believe it will prove warranted prior to espousal of any personal paradigm & for the forming of your own in retort. Therefore, I continue forthwith. •

About me:

I am a 35 year old male in Utah, USA. I was born to Jehovah's Witness parents & large JW families on both sides. *Insert stereotypical JW upbringing details here*, yada yada, 1st talk on TMS was the #2/Bible Reading (with Intro & Conclusion back then) when I was 5 years old, Unbaptized Publisher when I was 6 years old, Baptized at 14 years old, Auxiliary Pioneered every July, etc.

I was Appointed as a Ministerial Servant when I was 16 years old (to be fair, it was 6 days prior to my 17th birthday), blah blah blah, interviewed (starting on the actual date I was baptized) on 6 District Conventions & 7 Circuit Assemblies/Assembly Days, had 2 different 15 minute District Convention talks (ages 18 & 21) & 3 different 10 minute Circuit talks (ages 18, 19 & 20), you know the drill.

I'll apologize in advance for the braggadocio here but I was "The Golden Boy" of JW's, lol. I was the one that my parents friends look at and say "Hey, BXXX, can you please wait until our daughter is old enough so she can marry you?" (Let's put a pin in that statement please; weird doesn't always demand dissection, am I right?)

In amongst all of those details was the fact that I was one of two Ministerial Servants in our congregation and the other was a 90 year old blind man with two hip replacements; anyone want to guess which of the two MS's did 'all the congregational work'?

If there was a problem, yo' I had to solve it.

Ultimately, it meant that I had the *Privilege* of being responsible for every department - I mean *every* department:

Literature coordinator for 3 congregations, territories, magazines, accounts, sound, attendant, Assistant TMS Overseer, TMS Scheduling & Assignments, Assistant Congregation Book Study Overseer, Public Talk Coordinator, cleaning & maintenance, hospitality coordinator, field service coordinator for a Service Overseer with health problems, the Presiding Overseer delegated the scheduling of the Service Meeting to me as well scheduling the chairman & WT readers.

One final detail is that I also gathered, formatted, put together & distributed binders containing:

All source or study material, created my own table of contents, an index that I took time to create, loose leaf notepaper, 1 blue, 1 black, 1 red pen & 1 highlighter for every Kingdom Ministry School for Elders & Servants.

Once completed, I provided a binder to every Elder & MS in the District (and the DO & CO) along with shipping some to various family & friends around the country; NOTE: every aspect of this *privilege project*, from supplies, toner cartridges, driving all over to deliver them, shipping the very long distance binders, was all done out of my own pocket & at my own expense. Lest we forget to *count the cost* that would be MY TIME to do the work. (It was no less than a 4 month project every year)

(P.S. All of that congregational stuff began immediately upon my appointment as a Servant when I was 16, I began making those binders when I was 14 years old)

Finally, when I was 23, I pretty much "snapped" from burn out. I, quite literally, walked up to the PO after a Tuesday night meeting and said "I'm stepping aside as a Ministerial Servant, effective immediately, please find other arrangements. This will help you transition..." and I handed him 3 CDs I had burned that evening before the meeting which contain all data for everything I was responsible for.

I walked out to my car, and I was done.

*With that out of the way, the last statement to make is that I will be seeking to limit the conversations in which I engage within the forum. I'll freely admit that there is a side of me that does indeed maintain *some* strong agreement for aspects of the organization; notably, there are also plenty of areas in which I have *never in my life* agreed with as well as yet other topics upon which I feel are truthful in the strictest sense of doctrine & even find the accuracy of the foundation to biblically supported yet I know they are implausible or even impossible in a real world setting. Thus, taking that all into account, please respect that I - at times - will decline to get into hairsplitting or otherwise *heated* debates to which I see no intellectual, psychological, emotional or other type of benefit.*

If you read that entire diatribe & are with me thus far, thank you for your patience! Heretofore my remaining comments are topically on point. •

Regarding the topic of Education, this is one of those areas in which I have always - even as a 'mere young boy' - had an internally vehement struggle, negative perspective and complete disagreement with.

To my mind, if fundamental to ones teaching or topical 'education' - in this case, religious education - is that:

'...no man knows the day or the hour..', that '...not even Christ Jesus knows...' and that '...it will come as a thief in the night...'

Than, in that case, I am left with a surfeit glut of questions & comments I'd love to levy at the GB but I'll condense it down to its deepest root as a single - and, I think, a pretty weighty - question:

With those baseline scriptural references at the very core of 'the end of the system of things', HOW is it anything other than pompously far reaching & arrogantly short sighted to BOTH imply the end in 1975 and to *encourage a person's bible trained conscience* to forget about education so as to pursue greater theocratic activity?

Whether it's 1975, or another example, implying ANY sort of future *possible* date as the end is simply not in keeping with 'no man shall know the day and the hour'. Furthermore, by implying such things in combination with such negative commentary on continued education, HOW are we not crippling 'the friends' to, what is now, 42 years watching as the 'scene of this world is changing'?

In fact, can I not reasonably posit that the condemnation of attending College has now had a diametrically opposed effect in that many are now forced to take multiple, low paying, jobs with a higher grand total of labor hours just to make ends meet which thus deals a fatal blow to any hopes or ability to increase their theocratic activity; is not the imposition of said educational restraint the causal link to this real world, factual, problem?

Is it not fair to postulate that, had these individuals been afforded the opportunity to truly 'live their lives as though Armageddon is coming tomorrow, but PLAN their lives as though it's never coming at all' and determine what educational course was best for them, personally, that they may in fact find themselves able to obtain employment of 30-40 hours per week - perhaps even working from home - and have even more time available for theocratic needs were they to have had a College Degree?

Were we to exercise 'wisdom & discernment', could it not also be plausible that, by having obtained their degrees, these educated brothers & sisters would have managed to start and operate small businesses with far greater success, scope, revenue and profitability which would allow them to remain in even greater control of their work schedule so as to avail themselves to the kingdom effort on a - potentially - unparalleled scale sans working 3 different minimum wage jobs at 80 hours per week AND be able to offer the added benefit of now helping others in the congregation by hiring them & providing them a work schedule immensely more conducive to the kingdom work than anything this system provides?

**I could go on and on, obviously. Nevertheless, I've made my point.**

So, without any further ado, here are the final details about myself which pertain to this topic:

Graduated High School at 16 by accelerating the coursework ON MY OWN.

GPA at graduation: 4.0 out of 4.0 (straight A's)

Through a chance encounter with the Dean of a University, he arranged for me to take the SATs and ACTs 'for fun'. Results?

SATs: 1590 of 1600

ACTs: 38 of 40

Upon receiving those scores, the aforementioned Dean asked if I wanted to test my I.Q. Results?

I.Q.: 162

Upon receiving that result, the aforementioned Dean proceeded to offer me a FULL Academic Scholarship to his university; COMPLETELY 'free ride' on everything: books, tuition & dorms, etc. although I lived close enough at the time that it was only a 20 minute drive from home.

The name of that university?

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

You read that correctly...M.I.T.; the very bastion of scientific achievement & capability, a place where people like John Nash & Stephen *effing* Hawking can/could/did show up to lecture.

The result of that offer?

I turned it down because it was a 'worldly desire to pursue a college education'.

AND...I was tempted to accept it but - and this is always a great thought to reminisce on - had I decided to accept said scholarship, well that's just it, there was no scenario where I would have accepted because when my parents heard of this - as well as hearing that I was considering it (even though I was 99% sure I'd decline of my accord) - they made it QUITE CLEAR that I wouldn't be accepting the offer.

After all, I was 16 years old and a minor. It was ultimately their decision to control that outcome and they emphatically informed me that it was "not where a Christian belongs, a Christian 'keeps on putting first the kingdom & his righteousness' and that my good grades in high school are all that I needed in order for me to get a job and then go to Ministerial Training School so I could be sent where the need was great".

End result from THAT decision?

My I.Q. tested out 13 points higher, 175, only 3 years later when I was 19. However, I entered the workforce with my high school diploma and began working jobs that - although they paid 'decently' in the $50k to $70k range - were jobs that didn't just require a 'pound of flesh' through how many hours I worked but also a 'pound of my flesh' in a physical sense.

The inglorious end of my tale being that I am now 35, I have a litany of medical conditions, my body is 'falling apart' so badly that I am now considered permanently disabled. I can walk (barely) and have a fair quality of life, all things considered. But, I am 35 and have been told by doctors that my body is 85, it won't get any better and they are in shock that I actually am walking still.

I have had 6 surgeries in the last 2 years and need to endure at least 5 more in the next 12 to 18 months and then - hopefully - I won't need any for about 5 years.

Right now I currently have 3 fractured discs in my lower back - yes, I have a broken back - along with a minor ACL tear in my right knee & minor MCL tear in my left knee and those 3 problems are the 'less crucial' to deal with. Consider that. 'Ruminate' on that.

My entire Spinal column has begun to form calcium deposits which will lead to my spine fusing to a solid state but - by planning to undergo surgery every 5 years for the rest of my life - we can prolong the inevitable by *hopefully* 20 years.

As if I'll be alive at 55!

It's both a wonderful escape from my reality, as well as a thoroughly infuriatingly depressing exercise, to sit and think about "what if I went to MIT? What if I put my brain to real use...?".

*The End*

119

How many of you followed the WTS direction on education years ago and have been screwed by it?

by Julia Orwell in

jw
friends

i'm really interested in this question because i've heard for years that if you forgo further education and go pioneering, when you have a family down the track you will get a good job because jehovah will provide for you because you pioneered.

as long as i was a kool-aid drinker, even then, i thought, "how does pioneering pay your bills?

surely education should come first.

Someguywhocares

Old thread, I know. However, here is my post I made on another thread earlier today...

---

I am new here, I honestly stumbled upon this site - about 2 hours ago - for the first time in my life due to generalized searching for, and reading of, the news after the Russian results.

I'm not really sure how well this forum does regarding notifications when someone comments on a, nearly, one month old thread and thereby I have no idea if this will be seen.

Anyway, I digress...

I am - most likely will - not be getting too engaged in discussions over all. However, this was the thread, this was the topic, that piqued my interest enough that it warranted account creation.

Please Note: I am apologizing now for the breadth & depth of this post. I know this is regarding JW's and their respective level, or lack thereof, educational or academic achievement/completion and its demographic juxtaposition with geographic factors, proximity to centers for higher education, other socio- or communal groupings and the personal, professional (if it can even be considered 'professional') successes therein or, again, a lack thereof. I promise that my contribution in this regard is contained herein but I ask your collective patience with my overall post as I am of the belief that, contextually speaking, it is prudent to provide my background; to whit, I believe it will prove warranted prior to espousal of any personal paradigm & for the forming of your own in retort. Therefore, I continue forthwith. •

About me:

I am a 35 year old male in Utah, USA. I was born to Jehovah's Witness parents & large JW families on both sides. *Insert stereotypical JW upbringing details here*, yada yada, 1st talk on TMS was the #2/Bible Reading (with Intro & Conclusion back then) when I was 5 years old, Unbaptized Publisher when I was 6 years old, Baptized at 14 years old, Auxiliary Pioneered every July, etc.

I was Appointed as a Ministerial Servant when I was 16 years old (to be fair, it was 6 days prior to my 17th birthday), blah blah blah, interviewed (starting on the actual date I was baptized) on 6 District Conventions & 7 Circuit Assemblies/Assembly Days, had 2 different 15 minute District Convention talks (ages 18 & 21) & 3 different 10 minute Circuit talks (ages 18, 19 & 20), you know the drill.

I'll apologize in advance for the braggadocio here but I was "The Golden Boy" of JW's, lol. I was the one that my parents friends look at and say "Hey, BXXX, can you please wait until our daughter is old enough so she can marry you?" (Let's put a pin in that statement please; weird doesn't always demand dissection, am I right?)

In amongst all of those details was the fact that I was one of two Ministerial Servants in our congregation and the other was a 90 year old blind man with two hip replacements; anyone want to guess which of the two MS's did 'all the congregational work'?

If there was a problem, yo' I had to solve it.

Ultimately, it meant that I had the *Privilege* of being responsible for every department - I mean *every* department:

Literature coordinator for 3 congregations, territories, magazines, accounts, sound, attendant, Assistant TMS Overseer, TMS Scheduling & Assignments, Assistant Congregation Book Study Overseer, Public Talk Coordinator, cleaning & maintenance, hospitality coordinator, field service coordinator for a Service Overseer with health problems, the Presiding Overseer delegated the scheduling of the Service Meeting to me as well scheduling the chairman & WT readers.

One final detail is that I also gathered, formatted, put together & distributed binders containing:

All source or study material, created my own table of contents, an index that I took time to create, loose leaf notepaper, 1 blue, 1 black, 1 red pen & 1 highlighter for every Kingdom Ministry School for Elders & Servants.

Once completed, I provided a binder to every Elder & MS in the District (and the DO & CO) along with shipping some to various family & friends around the country; NOTE: every aspect of this *privilege project*, from supplies, toner cartridges, driving all over to deliver them, shipping the very long distance binders, was all done out of my own pocket & at my own expense. Lest we forget to *count the cost* that would be MY TIME to do the work. (It was no less than a 4 month project every year)

(P.S. All of that congregational stuff began immediately upon my appointment as a Servant when I was 16, I began making those binders when I was 14 years old)

Finally, when I was 23, I pretty much "snapped" from burn out. I, quite literally, walked up to the PO after a Tuesday night meeting and said "I'm stepping aside as a Ministerial Servant, effective immediately, please find other arrangements. This will help you transition..." and I handed him 3 CDs I had burned that evening before the meeting which contain all data for everything I was responsible for.

I walked out to my car, and I was done.

*With that out of the way, the last statement to make is that I will be seeking to limit the conversations in which I engage within the forum. I'll freely admit that there is a side of me that does indeed maintain *some* strong agreement for aspects of the organization; notably, there are also plenty of areas in which I have *never in my life* agreed with as well as yet other topics upon which I feel are truthful in the strictest sense of doctrine & even find the accuracy of the foundation to biblically supported yet I know they are implausible or even impossible in a real world setting. Thus, taking that all into account, please respect that I - at times - will decline to get into hairsplitting or otherwise *heated* debates to which I see no intellectual, psychological, emotional or other type of benefit.*

If you read that entire diatribe & are with me thus far, thank you for your patience! Heretofore my remaining comments are topically on point. •

Regarding the topic of Education, this is one of those areas in which I have always - even as a 'mere young boy' - had an internally vehement struggle, negative perspective and complete disagreement with.

To my mind, if fundamental to ones teaching or topical 'education' - in this case, religious education - is that:

'...no man knows the day or the hour..', that '...not even Christ Jesus knows...' and that '...it will come as a thief in the night...'

Than, in that case, I am left with a surfeit glut of questions & comments I'd love to levy at the GB but I'll condense it down to its deepest root as a single - and, I think, a pretty weighty - question:

With those baseline scriptural references at the very core of 'the end of the system of things', HOW is it anything other than pompously far reaching & arrogantly short sighted to BOTH imply the end in 1975 and to *encourage a person's bible trained conscience* to forget about education so as to pursue greater theocratic activity?

Whether it's 1975, or another example, implying ANY sort of future *possible* date as the end is simply not in keeping with 'no man shall know the day and the hour'. Furthermore, by implying such things in combination with such negative commentary on continued education, HOW are we not crippling 'the friends' to, what is now, 42 years watching as the 'scene of this world is changing'?

In fact, can I not reasonably posit that the condemnation of attending College has now had a diametrically opposed effect in that many are now forced to take multiple, low paying, jobs with a higher grand total of labor hours just to make ends meet which thus deals a fatal blow to any hopes or ability to increase their theocratic activity; is not the imposition of said educational restraint the causal link to this real world, factual, problem?

Is it not fair to postulate that, had these individuals been afforded the opportunity to truly 'live their lives as though Armageddon is coming tomorrow, but PLAN their lives as though it's never coming at all' and determine what educational course was best for them, personally, that they may in fact find themselves able to obtain employment of 30-40 hours per week - perhaps even working from home - and have even more time available for theocratic needs were they to have had a College Degree?

Were we to exercise 'wisdom & discernment', could it not also be plausible that, by having obtained their degrees, these educated brothers & sisters would have managed to start and operate small businesses with far greater success, scope, revenue and profitability which would allow them to remain in even greater control of their work schedule so as to avail themselves to the kingdom effort on a - potentially - unparalleled scale sans working 3 different minimum wage jobs at 80 hours per week AND be able to offer the added benefit of now helping others in the congregation by hiring them & providing them a work schedule immensely more conducive to the kingdom work than anything this system provides?

**I could go on and on, obviously. Nevertheless, I've made my point.**

So, without any further ado, here are the final details about myself which pertain to this topic:

Graduated High School at 16 by accelerating the coursework ON MY OWN.

GPA at graduation: 4.0 out of 4.0 (straight A's)

Through a chance encounter with the Dean of a University, he arranged for me to take the SATs and ACTs 'for fun'. Results?

SATs: 1590 of 1600

ACTs: 38 of 40

Upon receiving those scores, the aforementioned Dean asked if I wanted to test my I.Q. Results?

I.Q.: 162

Upon receiving that result, the aforementioned Dean proceeded to offer me a FULL Academic Scholarship to his university; COMPLETELY 'free ride' on everything: books, tuition & dorms, etc. although I lived close enough at the time that it was only a 20 minute drive from home.

The name of that university?

The Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

You read that correctly...M.I.T.; the very bastion of scientific achievement & capability, a place where people like John Nash & Stephen *effing* Hawking can/could/did show up to lecture.

The result of that offer?

I turned it down because it was a 'worldly desire to pursue a college education'.

AND...I was tempted to accept it but - and this is always a great thought to reminisce on - had I decided to accept said scholarship, well that's just it, there was no scenario where I would have accepted because when my parents heard of this - as well as hearing that I was considering it (even though I was 99% sure I'd decline of my accord) - they made it QUITE CLEAR that I wouldn't be accepting the offer.

After all, I was 16 years old and a minor. It was ultimately their decision to control that outcome and they emphatically informed me that it was "not where a Christian belongs, a Christian 'keeps on putting first the kingdom & his righteousness' and that my good grades in high school are all that I needed in order for me to get a job and then go to Ministerial Training School so I could be sent where the need was great".

End result from THAT decision?

My I.Q. tested out 13 points higher, 175, only 3 years later when I was 19. However, I entered the workforce with my high school diploma and began working jobs that - although they paid 'decently' in the $50k to $70k range - were jobs that didn't just require a 'pound of flesh' through how many hours I worked but also a 'pound of my flesh' in a physical sense.

The inglorious end of my tale being that I am now 35, I have a litany of medical conditions, my body is 'falling apart' so badly that I am now considered permanently disabled. I can walk (barely) and have a fair quality of life, all things considered. But, I am 35 and have been told by doctors that my body is 85, it won't get any better and they are in shock that I actually am walking still.

I have had 6 surgeries in the last 2 years and need to endure at least 5 more in the next 12 to 18 months and then - hopefully - I won't need any for about 5 years.

Right now I currently have 3 fractured discs in my lower back - yes, I have a broken back - along with a minor ACL tear in my right knee & minor MCL tear in my left knee and those 3 problems are the 'less crucial' to deal with. Consider that. 'Ruminate' on that.

My entire Spinal column has begun to form calcium deposits which will lead to my spine fusing to a solid state but - by planning to undergo surgery every 5 years for the rest of my life - we can prolong the inevitable by *hopefully* 20 years.

As if I'll be alive at 55!

It's both a wonderful escape from my reality, as well as a thoroughly infuriatingly depressing exercise, to sit and think about "what if I went to MIT? What if I put my brain to real use...?".

*The End*

55

JW's And Their Education Level

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

i was thinking about this.... in my congregation, i was literally the only one with universitary education, out of a cong from around 110 people.... and we're very close to a very big university, which makes it even weirder.. on the other hand... sooo many here with their own business, mostly small cleaning businesses.

cleaning windows, or cleaning somewhere else... painters.... all have jobs that do not require any education level, cos they never had a decent education.. how is the composition of the jw people/congs that you know about?.

how many painters... cleaners... compared to people with jobs that require higher education?.

Someguywhocares

Just to be a smart ass, as usual:

"Whether you believe you can, or believe you cannot, you are always right" - Henry Ford

"A ha teh huh ha ha heh heh duh" - Vinny Barbarino

---

Now, to be the genuine version of myself:

"At all times, and in all ways, the difference lay in man IS a brain; the rest of him but a mere appendage. The key be that in which we afford dominance" - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

"Beauty is that every man is, unbeknownst to himself, the sculptor of his own brain; Ugly is realizing that his only sculpting tool is inclination and motivation" - Santiago Ramon y Cajal

"Nothing is a waste of time, save for time being wasted" - Someguywhocares

55

JW's And Their Education Level

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

i was thinking about this.... in my congregation, i was literally the only one with universitary education, out of a cong from around 110 people.... and we're very close to a very big university, which makes it even weirder.. on the other hand... sooo many here with their own business, mostly small cleaning businesses.

cleaning windows, or cleaning somewhere else... painters.... all have jobs that do not require any education level, cos they never had a decent education.. how is the composition of the jw people/congs that you know about?.

how many painters... cleaners... compared to people with jobs that require higher education?.

Someguywhocares

@snowbird If I'm prying & being to personal or forward then please feel free to 'digitally spray me with water' as though your training a cat, lol.

If I may ask, where did your daughter go to college? What did she major in?

Had I attended MIT, I was planning on attaining my Doctorate in Physics with a 'minor' geared towards also graduating with a Masters in Business Administration. (So, I guess it would be more of a double major, lol).

For me, despite the straight A's in high school, it was Math, Science, Accounting, History & Psychology that were a 'cake walk' versus English type courses.

When my my sister was in 2nd grade, the decision was made to home school her starting with 3rd grade

*Note: this was, believe it or not, a decision that was NOT based on the JWs love of home schooling children. The actual reason was due to a genetic birth defect that lead to my sister developing into a woman at an insanely young age; and when I say 'developing' and 'insanely young' I mean 'able to become pregnant' at the age of 5. Thus, she was attempting to deal with out of control & irregular female matters at an age where her classmate would never understand what was happening, let alone the difficulty to her psyche. My parents both worked an hour away so if anything happened, no one was readily available or close by to go pick her up & get her home, etc. So, we arranged the last half of second grade so that, if needed, her school would call my high school (less than a mile away), my principle would get me from class, drive me to pick her up & then drop us at home where I could care for her, help her change out of stained clothes, etc.; again, I digress.*

I bring that up for the purposes of giving an example regarding my math, science, etc. mind...

When she began her home schooling - both parents still working an hour away - she could not even get 2+2 right. So, I got permission from my school superintendent to arrive at high school each morning - in home room as normal - to be present for roll call and then proceed to the office where the secretary would hand me my course work for that day.

I would then return home, wake up my sister by 8AM, have her shower while I would make her (and I) breakfast and then I - at 14 - became her teacher. I would instruct all lesson plans for her & grade assignments. We'd break for lunch, then back to work until the bell would ring at the school she would have been in.

She then was sent to the desk in her room to do her 'homework' to turn in to me the following day.

That is when when I would sit and grade 'yesterday's homework'. Upon completion of her school day, I'd then adjourn to my own room & workspace and I would now do my days school work at night.

The next day, when picking up my new set of work, I'd hand in my prior days work to the high school for it to be graded by the appropriate teachers and then I would head home for that day, repeat

Each Friday I would pack up my sisters school work - everything I graded - and then it would be mailed to the school for a teacher to review & ensure her education went correctly.

Then, it was 'lather, rinse, repeat' as it were.

I tell that story because that little girl, unable to perform simple addition, went on to become the YOUNGEST FEMALE CPA in Massachusetts history (at the time) when she was only 20 years old.

I was, I am and I always will be extremely proud of her for her success gained by her hard work

So, now you see why I have such stated love for math, science, accounting, et al.

55

JW's And Their Education Level

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

i was thinking about this.... in my congregation, i was literally the only one with universitary education, out of a cong from around 110 people.... and we're very close to a very big university, which makes it even weirder.. on the other hand... sooo many here with their own business, mostly small cleaning businesses.

cleaning windows, or cleaning somewhere else... painters.... all have jobs that do not require any education level, cos they never had a decent education.. how is the composition of the jw people/congs that you know about?.

how many painters... cleaners... compared to people with jobs that require higher education?.

Someguywhocares

@snowbird Thanks for the compliment on my comments!

Believe i I understand what you mean about 'despising', I really do because I was in lock step with you for a time.

My point was just that, sometimes, and I believe this is one of those times, despite being deserved and warranted for one to personify a particular negative emotion toward any 'body', group or person, the desired or intended result of said targeted group is never realized due to their ambivalence versus our stated resolve. In this case, to my mind, it becomes an exercise in futility where the 'ROI' is recessive thus rendering the output & investment just not worth it.

Does se that make sense?

55

JW's And Their Education Level

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

i was thinking about this.... in my congregation, i was literally the only one with universitary education, out of a cong from around 110 people.... and we're very close to a very big university, which makes it even weirder.. on the other hand... sooo many here with their own business, mostly small cleaning businesses.

cleaning windows, or cleaning somewhere else... painters.... all have jobs that do not require any education level, cos they never had a decent education.. how is the composition of the jw people/congs that you know about?.

how many painters... cleaners... compared to people with jobs that require higher education?.

Someguywhocares

@snowbird no offense taken! Trust me, it takes so much to ever actually 'offend' me. If I don't like what I hear, I tell you. If I like it, I tell you. If I am indifferent, it'll show in the way I just move on to a new topic or some other form I'm sure.

People really are offended way to easily - especially these days more than ever - and I don't get it.

When did 'sticks & stones may break my bones' stop being relevant?

Beyond that, if I am honest, the rapid advancement to the enchanted land of 'I am offended' is actually more dangerous for other people to expose themselves to ME lol.

Not only do do I believe honesty, say it like is, put on your big boy underwear, etc. - which offends people easily to begin with - I am also Greek...so basically, picture the most brutally honest person that you know in this world, someone that sometimes finds themselves unintentionally offending people...go ahead, picture them, I'll wait...

...ok, now multiply that person by a factor of 25x100 to the 17th power and then pump them full of Equine Steroids....

...ok, there have ME!

55

JW's And Their Education Level

by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

i was thinking about this.... in my congregation, i was literally the only one with universitary education, out of a cong from around 110 people.... and we're very close to a very big university, which makes it even weirder.. on the other hand... sooo many here with their own business, mostly small cleaning businesses.

cleaning windows, or cleaning somewhere else... painters.... all have jobs that do not require any education level, cos they never had a decent education.. how is the composition of the jw people/congs that you know about?.

how many painters... cleaners... compared to people with jobs that require higher education?.

Someguywhocares

@snowbird - There are 2 additional thoughts I meant to include in my reply...

1) I also freely acknowledge that my perspective - on the organizational disparagement of college - could be wrong. That being said, one part of your reply jumped off of the screen when I read it. Specifically, your wording where you said '...never made sense to me.'.

That is precisely the underlying & core paradigm I was both trying to express as well as explain.

If you look at my original post, when reading the later half that focused on the expressed congregational view that college is wrong, as I started breaking down the plausible outcome if college was allowed - or, GASP, encouraged - what effect might that have had AND whether or not the derision of college actually proved to create the exact problem they sought to prevent.

My entire argumentative positioning & postulation in that regard was simply about LOGIC and whether or not it existed on their behalf and - as always - in my philosophy & expressions; be it written or verbal.

Sylvia, please give me your honest opinion, do you feel my comments, arguments & questions made sense?

And...

2) I understand the feeling of 'despising' them over this. However, forgive me, but please allow me to make a comment on that...

...try not to.

Its not not that I disagree with you or that I haven't felt that myself at times. Rather, it's just such a negative emotion and the reality is that - in matters that perpetuate these feelings - the ones we project that anger onto will in fact never feel it nor care. What's more, the antithesis of the desired outcome is actually what happens...

While the object of our furor continues about, unphased, unabated, unaffected, unharmed and uncaring, WE end up being affected rather than those we seek to affect because - if we are not laser focused in our emotion management - the negativity plants our brain firmly in unhappy territory, at which point there are aspects of our daily lives that will be altered without intent or desire.

WE truly end up paying the price rather than those by whom the price should be paid.