Posts by deegee

13

So it was claimed that the resolution issued by the meeting at Jerusalem was issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15), yet................

by deegee in

according to acts 15, the meeting at jerusalem boldly declared that god's holy spirit issued a formal resolution counselling christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", yet in 1 corinthians chapters 8 &10 paul set the holy spirit-issued resolution of the jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:.

"concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

but food will not bring us nearer to god; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

deegee

So why should we believe the event in Acts 15 actually took place, or if it did, how can we place it chronologically with any certainty ?

I agree with your conclusion Phizzy.

It certainly is doubtful that the Jerusalem meeting in Acts 15 took place.

According to Acts 15:2, 12, 22 - 26, 35, Paul was at the meeting in Jerusalem at which the Holy Spirit issued the requirement to abstain from foods offered to idols etc. However, in Paul's writings in Galatians etc, there is no mention of any such meeting taking place which Paul attended.

It seems the Jewish Christians were just trying to find a way to legitimize the continued observance of the law of Moses - they went so far as to declare that their decree in Acts 15 had the backing of the Holy Spirit.

The Jewish Christians however, had reason to insist on the continued observance of the Law of Moses:

They couldn't see how a covenant given by their perfect God Yahweh could be flawed as claimed by Paul. Paul stated that there was need for a second covenant to replace the first covenant because the first covenant was flawed:

Hebrews 8:7 (NIV):

"For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another."

Apparently it was difficult for the Jewish Christians to understand how the first covenant could have been flawed if Yahweh, the perfect one, had given it to the Hebrews.

This is one of the reasons why the Jews to this day have not accepted the New Testament or Christianity - how could a perfect God have given them a flawed covenant which needs to be replaced?

13

So it was claimed that the resolution issued by the meeting at Jerusalem was issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15), yet................

by deegee in

according to acts 15, the meeting at jerusalem boldly declared that god's holy spirit issued a formal resolution counselling christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", yet in 1 corinthians chapters 8 &10 paul set the holy spirit-issued resolution of the jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:.

"concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

but food will not bring us nearer to god; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

deegee

According to Paul, the gospel he preached is not of human origin as he received his revelation from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11,12).

The Jewish elders declared that the requirement to abstain from food sacrificed to idols was from the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus:
"The Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you (John 16:7,13 - 15).

So Jesus contradicted himself by issuing opposing/conflicting statements to Paul and the Jerusalem elders.

13

So it was claimed that the resolution issued by the meeting at Jerusalem was issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15), yet................

by deegee in

according to acts 15, the meeting at jerusalem boldly declared that god's holy spirit issued a formal resolution counselling christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", yet in 1 corinthians chapters 8 &10 paul set the holy spirit-issued resolution of the jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:.

"concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

but food will not bring us nearer to god; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

deegee

Thanks for the comments.

Whether Acts 15 was written before or after 1 Corinthians, a person reading Acts 15 and 1 Corinthians 8 & 10 for the first time and taking the scriptures at face value would note that:

- Acts 15:28, 29:
The Holy Spirit required that Gentile Christians abstain from foods sacrificed to idols.

- 1 Corinthians 8 & 10:
Paul told Gentile Christians the opposite: it did not matter if food offered to idols was eaten.

Reading these scriptures at face value, a person would conclude that Paul went against the Holy Spirit's requirement and in so doing went against Jesus and God since Jesus declared:

John 16:7,13 - 15:
"But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
But when he, the Spirit of TRUTH, comes, he will guide you into all the TRUTH. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because IT IS FROM ME THAT HE WILL RECEIVE WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said THE SPIRIT WILL RECEIVE FROM ME WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU."

It certainly doesn't seem that the Holy Spirit & Jesus led the Jerusalem elders to the truth as far as Paul was concerned.

Why didn't the Holy Spirit just instruct the Jerusalem elders to give the same instructions to the Gentile Christians as Paul did ?

The conflicting statements reveal that there was conflict between the Jerusalem elders and Paul. It’s patently not clear direction from any God, but men,
different factions of early Christianity contending for their own way.

13

So it was claimed that the resolution issued by the meeting at Jerusalem was issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15), yet................

by deegee in

according to acts 15, the meeting at jerusalem boldly declared that god's holy spirit issued a formal resolution counselling christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", yet in 1 corinthians chapters 8 &10 paul set the holy spirit-issued resolution of the jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:.

"concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

but food will not bring us nearer to god; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

deegee

How could Paul have set aside a resolution issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15 versus 1 Corinthians 8 & 10)? Wouldn't Paul be going against God?

13

So it was claimed that the resolution issued by the meeting at Jerusalem was issued by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15), yet................

by deegee in

according to acts 15, the meeting at jerusalem boldly declared that god's holy spirit issued a formal resolution counselling christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", yet in 1 corinthians chapters 8 &10 paul set the holy spirit-issued resolution of the jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:.

"concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

but food will not bring us nearer to god; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat.

deegee

According to Acts 15, the meeting at Jerusalem boldly declared that God's Holy Spirit issued a formal resolution counselling Christians to "abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood, and from things strangled, and from formication", YET in 1 Corinthians chapters 8 &10 Paul set the Holy Spirit-issued resolution of the Jerusalem meeting regarding the eating of meat sacrificed to idols aside:

"Concerning the eating of food offered to idols … some, because of their former association with the idol, eat food as something sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. But food will not bring us nearer to God; we are no worse off if we do not eat, nor better off if we eat. All things are lawful, but not all things are advantageous. All things are lawful, but not all things build up. … Eat whatever is sold in a meat market, making no inquiry because of your conscience. … If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever is set before you, making no inquiry on account of your conscience" (1 Corinthians 8:4, 7-8; 1 Corinthians 10:23, 25, 27 NWT, 2013).

How could Paul have done this when the Holy Spirit issued this necessary resolution which must be adhered to (as is also insisted on by the WT)?

1

A Stupid Prayer by Jesus

by deegee in

so jesus prayed:"father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing" (luke 23:34).. how must god forgive those who put jesus to death when god required jesus' death as the only mechanism by which he would or could forgive individual humans for their sins and grant them salvation?.

1 john 1:6-8 (nkjv):"but if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of jesus christ his son cleanses us from all sin.".

romans 4:24-25 (niv):"for us who believe in him who raised jesus our lord from the dead.

deegee

So Jesus prayed:
"Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing"
(Luke 23:34).

How must God forgive those who put Jesus to death when God required Jesus' death as the only mechanism by which He would or could forgive individual humans for their sins and grant them salvation?

1 John 1:6-8 (NKJV):
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

Romans 4:24-25 (NIV):
"For us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

Hebrews 9:28 New King James Version (NKJV):
"So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

Please Feel Free To Add A Scripture To This List.

33

Introduction

by robrog8999 in

jw
friends

hello all.... i am new here so i figured i'd make a quick post introducing myself and giving a brief intro as to who i am and what i'm here for... as well as to hopefully meet others.. so, i made a profile and in it i gave a pretty detailed explanation as to my intent here and exactly why i decided to participate in the boards.

in case you don't read it, i'll give a brief summary.

the name is robert.

deegee

To say that the Trinity doctrine is unbiblical is not correct as the bible in fact teaches both that Jesus is God/equal to God and that Jesus is God's son. So both Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians can find support for their doctrine in the bible.

If someone is earnestly searching for the truth regarding any matter, not just religion, I would imagine that the logical/sensible thing to do is to listen to EVERYONE and consider ALL viewpoints, otherwise they will end up shortchanging themselves.

Biblical historians/persons who engage in Biblical Studies offer another perspective/viewpoint worth considering. The following is a Biblical historian's viewpoint regarding the Trinity doctrine:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7IPAKsGbqcg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kbLm_Xiqih8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SdSievHrris

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RtkeNuCwinc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AxiNy8mwHqM

6

Is it the original anointed person or their clone who will be in heaven?

by deegee in

the wt teaches that there's no part of a human being that survives the death of the body.

if the anointed do not have an immortal soul/ some immaterial part of them that survives death, then whoever will be in heaven won't be the original anointed person but their clone since once a person dies, according to wt theology, they cease to exist; so god will have to create a spirit body from nothing for that person and that created body by definition will therefore not be the original person but their clone.. so it will be a person's clone that will get to live forever in heaven and rule with christ, and not the original person.............one can now see why other religions teach the doctrine of the immortality of the soul..

deegee

The WT teaches that there's no part of a human being that survives the death of the body. If the anointed do not have an immortal soul/ some immaterial part of them that survives death, then whoever will be in heaven won't be the original anointed person but their CLONE since once a person dies, according to WT theology, they cease to exist; so God will have to create a spirit body FROM NOTHING for that person and that created body by definition will therefore NOT be the original person but their CLONE.

So it will be a person's CLONE that will get to live forever in heaven and rule with Christ, and NOT the original person.............one can now see why other religions teach the doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

16

The Anointed Class: Do They Have Spirits?

by Cold Steel in

i realize that the anointed class inherits heaven while the great crowd inherits a renewed planet earth, but how and when are the anointed chosen?

are these people born with spirits or do they grow them as they live?

when they die, they don't sleep but go right to heaven, right?

deegee

If the anointed do not have an immortal soul or some immaterial part of them that survives death, then whoever will be in heaven won't be the original anointed person but their CLONE since once a person dies, according to WT theology, they cease to exist; so God will have to create a spirit body FROM NOTHING for that person and that created body by definition will NOT be the original person but their CLONE.

So it will be a person's CLONE that will get to live forever in heaven and rule with Christ, and NOT the original person.............one can now see why other religions teach the doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

16

The Anointed Class: Do They Have Spirits?

by Cold Steel in

i realize that the anointed class inherits heaven while the great crowd inherits a renewed planet earth, but how and when are the anointed chosen?

are these people born with spirits or do they grow them as they live?

when they die, they don't sleep but go right to heaven, right?

deegee

The WT teaches that there's no part of a human being that survives the death of a human being.........but I suppose there is an exception in the case of the anointed.