Posts by Drearyweather

43

Be Couragous! - (Like The Governing Body?)

by pale.emperor in

i was watching lloyd evans rebuttal to the saturday program of the be courageous convention.

lloyd pointed out something that had occurred to me as well:.

all this talk and examples of courage, whether it be standing up in class defending intelligent design, putting up with being imprisoned, not running away from bullies, always having a reply to someone who tries to ridicule your faith... the young ones are encourages - nay, commanded - to stand their ground and be courageous.

Drearyweather

Therefore, when Gerrit Losch accepted any appointments within the "Organization" he automatically gave them authority over him. Each of his assignments that he would accept from the "Organization" came on WATCHTOWER stationary. Period.

I can understand what you are implying. You can literally write pages upon pages about the authority of the Watchtower. However, for a true believing JW, that authority comes from Jehovah and not from Watchtower. It's always, Jehovah gave me the truth, Jehovah appointed him as an elder, Jehovah this, Jehovah that. While door-door, no JW tells that the Watchtower society has sent them, neither does the reference to Watchtower is made in the Bible Teach book. It is always "from Jehovah". It is "Jehovah's Witnesses" and not "Watchtower's Witnesses".

Interestingly, it is when you start to wake up is when you realize that all of this was from a man-made organization- Watchtower. Jehovah doesn't exist. Ironically, that is also the time you realize that Watchtower actually doesn't have any authority on you- legally or spiritually. It never had.

Interestingly, Zalkin proved (on basis of Allen Shuster's statements) that the Governing Body has authority over the Watchtower, but could't prove the reverse. In effect, even if the Watchtower asked Losch to appear in the court, he had the right to reject it.

His monthly stipend (wages) his automobile (benefit) and his health insurance(benefit) provided by the WATCHTOWER organization, not the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

When a JW applies for Bethel, he becomes a member of the "Worldwide Order of Special Fulltime Servants of Jehovah's Witnesses". In the Bethel application form, the JW consents that he agrees to transfer his data to the Governing Body of JW's. Legally no Bethelite is an employee of the Watchtower society, except for the Board members. Following are the actual words from the application form:

" I will be content and satisfied with the modest support that I receive from the Order. ..I authorize the transfer to the Governing Body of the information found on this application and any additional personal information that the Governing Body deems necessary regarding my capacity to serve as a member of the Order."

At the 59th Gilead graduation class, F. W. Franz gave a speech. In that speech he states, 'The Society has the right and authority to send out missionaries.'

Yes, he said it because the society was operating the Gilead School which was officially recognized in 1953 by the US department of Education. So, as any other organization, it has authority to conduct training for missionaries and offer diplomas. The diploma states that the missionary would serve as the representative of the Ecclesiastical Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

If Losch lied, why did Zalkin did not contest it? and why did the courts not investigate further?

43

Be Couragous! - (Like The Governing Body?)

by pale.emperor in

i was watching lloyd evans rebuttal to the saturday program of the be courageous convention.

lloyd pointed out something that had occurred to me as well:.

all this talk and examples of courage, whether it be standing up in class defending intelligent design, putting up with being imprisoned, not running away from bullies, always having a reply to someone who tries to ridicule your faith... the young ones are encourages - nay, commanded - to stand their ground and be courageous.

Drearyweather

I think I disgree with sparky1. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Any instructions that he would have received from 'headquarters' would have been on a WATCHTOWER letterhead and rubber stamped Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. or Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc.

Watchtower never had or has any authority over any individual JW. Letters that are written to individual JW's are directions but cannot be used as evidence of authority. There are many posters on this forum who have received a letter from the congregation letterhead inviting them to a judicial committee. Are people obligated to attend the JC? Nope. Reason: WT doesn't have any authority over you.

Any authority that exists is what a person gives to them. If Gerrit Losch wakes up like Ray Franz, he can just get up, pack his bags and leave Warwick without any obligation to attend any JC.

Losch was a member of the Governing Body, which doesn't have legal existence, while the Watchtower Society, which has a legal existence, doesn't make policy decisions. And an individual JW is neither a member of the GB or the WT.

Zalkin couldn't prove the relation between Losch and the WT, he couldn't prove that Losch received compensation or tangible benefits from the WT, neither could he prove that Watchtower had any legal authority to command Losch, or for that matter any authority. The appeals court categorically said that the lower court erred in this matter.

All I could say that Losch came out of this legal bungle because Zalkin did not do his homework properly. No one could prove that Losch lied.

You can say that Losch had a moral responsibility. But then, what place does morality have in the law? None.

Paul invoked his Roman citizenship to escape scourging. Jesus refused to answer when he was brought before Herod. The apostles defied the Sanhedrin's order. Losch is simply following the example of his anointed colleagues.

43

Be Couragous! - (Like The Governing Body?)

by pale.emperor in

i was watching lloyd evans rebuttal to the saturday program of the be courageous convention.

lloyd pointed out something that had occurred to me as well:.

all this talk and examples of courage, whether it be standing up in class defending intelligent design, putting up with being imprisoned, not running away from bullies, always having a reply to someone who tries to ridicule your faith... the young ones are encourages - nay, commanded - to stand their ground and be courageous.

Drearyweather

How about leading from example?

Seems they are following their Master Jesus Christ who once slipped away from an angry crowd:

John 8:59: At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

55

JWs Outlawed in Russia

by minimus in

jw
friends

they are banned!.

Drearyweather

JW can have bibles in Russia. Just not their bibles. JW can have magazines in Russia. Just not their magazines. - Mr Roboto

Nonsense. It is like telling a gay in Russia:

You can love - but only someone of the opposite sex., You can marry - Just not of your gender, You can have sex - just not with someone of your gender

55

JWs Outlawed in Russia

by minimus in

jw
friends

they are banned!.

Drearyweather

This kind of deception is bad religion.... kudos to Russia.

It's utterly disgusting to see people salivating at the prospect of seeing the individual rank and file JW's in Russia getting arrested and criminalized as extremists.

12

Something that really ticked me off about seeing the video of New Head Quarters of J.W.s (Warwick)

by StoneWall in

jw
friends

when i was a jw it was always emphasized that we should trust in jehovah completely.

jah will protect his people do not trust in man, throw your burdens upon jehovah etc.ok now if that's true wouldn't it mean that if jehovah was going to protect anywhere it should be his world head quarters right?.

we were told to not trust in ourselves (such as guns,walls for defense and protection) but to leave it in jehovah's hands and he would provide a means for escape etc.so as i'm watching some pro-wt vid's about the facilities in warwick i noticed something they didn't show on them or focus on and only reason i know about it was because of the w5 newscast as well as the vids the protesters shared.they conveniently leave out the parts of them putting walls/fences and gates as well as a "guard shack" at entrance instead of relying on jehovah to protect them.the guard house even has a "no trespassing" sign in the window.

Drearyweather

We were told to not trust in ourselves (such as guns,walls for defense and protection)

When and where in the JW world were you told that you or JW's should not have fences and boundary walls and gates for their houses/property?

Cite some references please. Don't tell that an uber so-and-so elder from your congregation told that JW houses or bethels should not have boundary walls and gates.

19

Diminishing glory of JWs, confusions are at the root

by Ireneus in

when the world shuns jws because of difference of opinion, it is described as the action of satan.. when jws shun others because of difference of opinion, it is described as theocratic action.. such confused mind is at the root of getting wrong teachings.

jws shun anything what anyone would rate as the best of the bible or christian traditions:.

1)cross (with a longer descending arm) is the symbol of controlling the less powerful (“acts of the flesh”) with the more powerful (“spirit” within)—galatians 5:17, 19, 25.

Drearyweather

Yet Bible writer named John was so careless that he could produce a verse that is inherently contradicting itself: “No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.”

Ireneus, With due respect, I feel you are again taking things out of context and are also isolating sentences from conversations.

You have missed an important word from John 3:13, and that is the verse begins with 'and'. The verse is a part of the conversation that Jesus was having with Nicodemus. (verses 10-31).

Why did Jesus tell this verse? To comprehend Jesus's words you need to understand the entire conversation. In the entire conversation from verse 10, Jesus was talking about his authority as being the only person who had been with God in his prehuman existence and had the knowledge to teach people about heavenly things. No other person was in that position because no one had been with God there.

Had any human in the Bible gone to heaven and then come down from heaven and taught people about the kingdom of God? No. Only Jesus. So when he told that only he had ascended to heaven, it meant that only he was the one who had been in Heaven earlier and thus can now teach people about the kingdom of the heavens. That's the way we humans use certain semantics.

"ascended to heaven" cannot always mean physically going to or raised to heaven. You cannot take it in a literal sense if the context does not warrant. Let me give you an example:

Take the following three sentences:

1. I went to a musical concert yesterday, and wow, I should say that her performance was out of this world!

2. I went to Jane's house for a party and Kim drank until he was out of this world.

3. After seeing the first rocket launch, my 99-year-old grandpa excitedly exclaimed, "O Man, no one could imagine we can send such a huge thing out of this world"

Will you take the phrase "out of this world" in its literal sense in all the sentences?

in the above three sentences, the phrase "out of this world" means three different things in each instance, first sentence. it denotes extraordinary performance, the second sentence refers to intoxication and third means sending out in space.

It's about semantics. An effort is needed to understand it rather than simply discrediting it as contradictory.

19

Diminishing glory of JWs, confusions are at the root

by Ireneus in

when the world shuns jws because of difference of opinion, it is described as the action of satan.. when jws shun others because of difference of opinion, it is described as theocratic action.. such confused mind is at the root of getting wrong teachings.

jws shun anything what anyone would rate as the best of the bible or christian traditions:.

1)cross (with a longer descending arm) is the symbol of controlling the less powerful (“acts of the flesh”) with the more powerful (“spirit” within)—galatians 5:17, 19, 25.

Drearyweather

things referred to in Mathew 7:21-23 are absolute which can mean one and the same thing in any context

True. In fact, for a Christian what Jesus told in all the four Gospels are absolute and in harmony with each other. That's my point.

6

If JWs are living "The Best Life Ever," then why preach?

by JW_Rogue in

shouldn't the unhappy and unfulfilled worldly people see what jws have and be drawn to them?

shouldn't they be showing up at khs asking for bible studies?

at work shouldn't they be asking how jws families are so happy?

Drearyweather

The "Best Life Ever" is the one defined by Jesus:“If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me.

Do you think anyone would want this life? That's what makes missionary activity a heck of a job.

I mean everyone wants true happiness, so why work so hard for new members?

There are different charities everywhere in the world. The volunteers working there say that it gives them true happiness and purpose in life. If they claim that they are truly happy, then why do you think they work hard to have all these fundraising programs to attract more volunteers and raise funds?

A cause that makes me happy may not necessarily ring with you. If you want a following for your cause then it takes insane levels of promotional activities, no matter how noble the cause is.

19

Diminishing glory of JWs, confusions are at the root

by Ireneus in

when the world shuns jws because of difference of opinion, it is described as the action of satan.. when jws shun others because of difference of opinion, it is described as theocratic action.. such confused mind is at the root of getting wrong teachings.

jws shun anything what anyone would rate as the best of the bible or christian traditions:.

1)cross (with a longer descending arm) is the symbol of controlling the less powerful (“acts of the flesh”) with the more powerful (“spirit” within)—galatians 5:17, 19, 25.

Drearyweather

Drearyweather, Jesus himself says in Mathew 7:21-23 that he would not make such statements.

That's a bit absurd. The rock mentioned in Matt 16:18 is Jesus and not Peter. Eph 2:20 says that Jesus was the cornerstone of the true Christian faith. Peter and other apostles did take the lead but formed a part of the foundation, not the cornerstone itself. No way does it contradict with Matt 7:21-23.

Matt 7:21-23 says that those who do the will of God will be acknowledged by Jesus. The will of God was explained by Jesus and the other apostles who came after him and wrote the other books of the Bible.

If a scripture somewhere looks out of context then that means that it is necessary to dig deeper to understand the events when they were told. Matt 7 was a part of the Sermon on the mount told to a group of thousands of believers and unbelievers, whereas Matt 16:11-28 was a part of a private conversation between Jesus and his apostles. Jesus was preparing his apostles for his upcoming death and thus the conversation dealt with uncomfortable subjects leading to Peters admonition to Jesus and Jesus' resulting rebuke.

In the Sermon on the mount, Jesus told that blessed are the peacemakers. (Matt 5:9) But later, while sending his disciples for preaching, Jesus told that he has come not to make peace but with a sword. (Matt 10:34). Two different occasions, with different people addressed and in different contexts. Not contradictory.

Discrediting a scripture as not spoken by Jesus because we cannot reconcile it with the context is like me telling that Einstein did not invent the theory of relativity because I can't understand it.