Promised post here: Who is the Israel of God?
nibbled
JoinedPosts by nibbled
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Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????
by label licker inin society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?
in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.
this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.
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Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!
by nibbled inthe phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.
just who is the israel of god?.
as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?
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nibbled
The phrase “Israel of God” appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in Christianity. Just who is the Israel of God?
As you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint? With 20 years in the Watchtower, I know what they teach, I hope to have a discussion which is simply scriptures, rather than Watchtower style "reasoning from the scriptures". Yes, we reason from the scriptures, but I don't build my reasoning upon anything but the scriptures. Make sense?
- “Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.” — New International Version
- “May God’s peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new people of God.” — New Living Translation
- “May peace come to all those who follow this standard, and mercy to the Israel of God!” — Holman Christian Standard Bible
- “And those who agree to this path shall have peace and affection upon them and upon the Israel of God.” — Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Amplified Bible reads, “even upon the [true] Israel of God!”
Clearly some translations depict two groups, illustrated by “to all who” and “even to Israel of God” or “all those who—and mercy to the Israel of God” or “upon them and upon the Israel of God” whereas some clearly depict one group as “the new people of God” or “true Israel of God”. While the original Greek clears up the correct rendering, as readers of English we can also rely upon the context of this verse to answer the question at hand—Who are the Israel of God?
What is the rule, principle, standard or path that is being referred to here? The preceding verses explain:
“Those who are trying to force you to be circumcised want to look good to others. They don’t want to be persecuted for teaching that the cross of Christ alone can save. And even those who advocate circumcision don’t keep the whole law themselves. They only want you to be circumcised so they can boast about it and claim you as their disciples… It doesn’t matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.” — Galatians 6:12-15
Paul further explains regarding the path of circumcision and slavery to the law:
“Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ will be of no benefit to you. I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses. For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.” —Galatians 5:2-4
How did Paul feel about those who were trying to convert the Christians into Jews by circumcision?
“I wish those troublemakers would castrate themselves.” — Galatians 5:12
It was thus that Paul concludes that ”May peace come to all those [uncircumcised] who follow this standard, and mercy to the [circumcised] Israel of God!”
What mercy? Paul explained to the Romans the mercy that will be shown to the people of Israel, for God’s gifts and call can never be withdrawn:
“Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead. Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will sharek in God’s mercy. For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.” — Romans 11:28-32
Do you belong to the Israel of God or the New Creation?
Christians are called to be a new creation. The Israel of God is not a new creation, they are God’s chosen people of the old covenant, and we are called by Christ as chosen people of a new covenant, a new creation where “it doesn’t matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised”. (Colossians 3:11)
As for those that teach that Christians are the “Israel of God” on the basis of this one verse taken out of context, I recall the words of Paul:
“I wish those troublemakers would castrate themselves.”
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Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????
by label licker inin society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?
in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.
this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.
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nibbled
Okay, sorry guys. I get it now, the quote mark is block quote and the "Styles" has the quote someone else. Please make note of the blockquotes meant to be quoting another post. They are what I respond to, and are not my thoughts!
Band on the Run I'm one of those new here people. And I am interested in picking your Columbian brain.
When I posted above (with the messed up quotes) I had not yet read all the posts below, but was responding to AGuest's response to me. I mention how I like the whole book, called the bible (biblios, named for the goddess Byblos the Greek name for the place that the papyrus came from; bible basically means book, but with a very interesting etymology), as you do too.
I have no idea what level of understanding people are at here. It takes time to discern who is deeply embedded in doctrine, or how far others might be along in knowing all the truth, or how fast others are losing their faith as "they lose their religion" (REM) .
I also understand it takes a lot to crack off that scullcap of doctrine we were taught. Nearly every verse I'll speak up about are ones that matter to me because I was taught one thing but learned by reading the Word that it meant another. And it's unfortunately one premise based on another after another, so it's a very tangled web to learn who the Truth is, and to follow his voice. It's hard to go from being "in the truth" to following the Truth.
I found it easier than I now realize others have it. I spent nearly 10 years apart from "the truth" before finding myself in a kingdom hall, and finding myself reinstated, only to say that while I was listening I heard everything they said in the course of that time, and I came to realize that it was all wrong.
It was mere weeks after being resintated that I stopped going to the meetings. I started reading the scriptures (the "bible") straight through using the paraphrase translated from original language version The Message. I joke that it's like reading the "novel" version of the scriptures. It was like "reading a book", instead of "reading the bible". In doing so I often stopped and cross referenced other translations, including the NWT—"Is that really what it says? Does it say that in the NWT too?"
I came to believe everything I read.
Thankfully, early on I stopped trying to research everything and simply read the story. I had a 90 day plan on YouVersion, so I had to read.
And in reading it read like a story, and I was able to understand that story.
Now I am here because I want to talk about it.
I find Revelation finishs where Genesis left off. I find that Paul's letters were the Christian letters, whereas the "old testament" + the "gospels" were for Israel, Acts is a transition between the "Jewish" system of things, to the Christian system of things. Paul's letters were to the Christians, and the other apostles wrote to the Hebrews scattered or dispersed. Their letters specifically are addressed.
It was like watching a movie play out, and I cared about the characters. If 70 people went into Egypt and millions came out (600,000 military age men + women, children, and elderly) then how many more people were in the 12 tribes centuries later? I kept waiting for the Israelites (of the ten tribes) to come back—Hosea tells the story, but they never did.
Well, unless you realize that there's a pause button in the stories of the prophets. There was a pause that I've come to learn others call "the sacred interval" or the time for the fullness of the nations, or the full number to come in before the "partial hardening" is lifted.
After the full number come in then the story picks up with Revelation.
Pauls letters are to a different group of people. There was one hope for the united nation of Israel (later northern Israel and southern Judah). They all, as the Jews believe today, believe that they will inherit the promised land. And David said that the meek would inherit the earth. While that was the one hope of the old covenant, there were people along the way who were anointed by God. (Hebrews 11 seems to be a list.)
The new covenant however is for the new creation, the body of Christ, the Christians. We're a new creation, not grafted into an old nation, old religion, old covenant, nothing. People butcher the brilliant and inspired words of Paul to claim to be "spiritual Jews" or "grafted into Israel" or that they are the "Israel of God". Drives me nuts. It was so nice when I read Paul's books just as is, before coming back to reality and remembering the difference between what he says in context (of the whole scriptures) and what Christendom teaches it means.
I guess, I mean to say stay tuned. I'll start a new thread. I've written so much as if I sit in a classroom by myself. I don't hear, literally, the voice of Christ the Messiah. But I do believe that I am listening to his voice by trusting that he is the Word of God, that he came in flesh, and the word of God is the Word of God. Funny thing all those capital letters. I to believe that God sent the spirit of his son into my heart, and when I was in the period of time where I could not call on the name of "Jehovah" but had not yet come to learn his name (at least the only one that I know of that is accountable to the scriptures, and that I came to discover on my own only to find out I wasn't the only one...) I called on "my Father". Abba, Father.
Things just clicked and there's just no way I did this on my own. 20 years of feeling like an idiot because I couldn't do anything but parrot the Watchtower, and suddenly in a year in a half I understand the story straight through? I don't mean that I "know" it all. I'm so thankful that there is so much to learn, like digging for hid treasure. Just because I found treasure doesn't mean I'm going to stop digging as if there isn't much more.
Okay, I'll post a new thread. I hope that you, Band and others, like AGuest, will be responsive. I've been looking for people who care about the words of "the word" (etymology, original languages, etc) as well as the larger context which must be considered (social structures, culture, etc).
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Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????
by label licker inin society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?
in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.
this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.
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nibbled
The New Song "They sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, but no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth." — Rev 14:3
The Song of Moses "Those who had won the victory over the beast, his image,e and the number of his name, were standing on the sea of glass with harps from God.
They sang the song of God’s servant Mosesh and the song of the Lamb:
Great and awe-inspiring are Your works,
Lord God, the Almighty;
righteous and truei are Your ways,
King of the Nations.
Lord, who will not fear
and glorify Your name?
Because You alone are holy,
for all the nations will come
and worship before Youm
because Your righteous acts
have been revealed." — Rev 15:3,4
Okay, here's trying to be clear, because I'm still not certain we're talking about the same things here.
AGuest, I do not believe that the song mentioned at Rev 14:3 is the same some as mentioned at Rev 15:3. One is the "new song" and the other is the "song of Moses", and I believe that they are different, distinct and song by two different groups of singers. The "new song" is sung by the 144,000 only. The "song of Moses" is sung by "those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name." I don't know about you... but whether or not I'd ever be one of the 144,000 I do intend to be one who is victorious over the beast, his image and mark of his name: 666. This group is much larger than just 144,000, it includes them and the great multitude (crowd).
Revelation 19:1-9 shows the great multitude (crowd) singing, celebrating the fall of Babylon and the Lamb's bride. Then the angel concludes by telling John that those invited to the marriage feast are blessed— I know that the Watchtower teaches that the great multitude is not in heaven, and this multitude is angels, but... Why would angels be celebrating human salvation? And who is invited to the wedding feast? Obviously it's an invitition of humans, and the bride is obviously the 144,000, thus... (I'm just being clear, for the discussions sake, and because I don't know who has come to understand what.)
When the 144,000 sing it, THEY are singing it new for THEM... but it is not a new song. They are SINGING it... as IF it were a new song.
I don't get riled up in words that are only in certain translations but not in the original language. I also steer clear from removing or adding words, especially to Revelation which comes with a hefty warning about what happens to those who do that (even if—Band—it was to keep the original circulation from being corrupted and is just John's warning as a writer and not Christ's inspired intent for all generations to follow...).
Thus, I'd like to point out that reading the two verses together, and using the interlinear there is clarity there that's missing in most translations yet it is simple in the original language and doesn't require us to say "the new song" "is not a new song", and to resort to adding "if" where there isn't an "if" and a lot of reasoning, where none is required:
And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and as they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. — Revelation 14:2,3
It sounded like "a voice like harpists playing harps and as singing a new song".
The 144,000 are "solely from among the sons of Israel".
I believe the 144,000 are, as the scriptures explicitly say, from the children of the twelve tribes of Israel, so it is wholly not simply soley Israel. And I don't insert any "spiritual" before Israel, it's Israel. The foretold remnant of actual descendants of Israel.
And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given to them and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony (martyardom/witness) of Jesus and on account of the word of God, and those who did not the beast nor the image of him, and did not take the mark upon the forehead and upon their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. — Revelation 20:4, Interlinear
I typed the above from the literal word-for-word from the Interlinear. Why? Because it makes clear there are two groups. Those who were the first resurrection, and those who victorious over the beast, and they all lived and reigned with Christ.
Subtle distinctions.
This is seeing all who are in heaven—the assembly of Christ (literally, of anointed Christians) which a man and his wife become one flesh, the bride of the Lamb and the body of Christ become one assembly or household. They all reign with Christ.
Proof? Remember the new song at the outset of Revelation sung by the 24 elders, and the four living beings? (with a chorus sung by millions of angels)
And they sang a new song with these words:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and break its seals and open it.
For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
And you have caused them to become
a Kingdom of priests for our God.
And they will reign on the earth.” — Revelation 5:9,10
This is a new song about the people of Revelation 20:4,5, who are not just the 144,000 but are the 144,000 and the great multitude.
Before I leave this portion of the post, I want to make clear:
- There are at least two new songs in Revelation, but all the new songs are not the same new song
- The new song sung by the 144,000 is new, and is sung by them only
- The song of Moses is not the same song as the new song of the 144,000
- Israel once learned and sang the song of Moses, and it will be sang again by the assembly in heaven—but it is not the new song
- The new songs sung in heaven are noted as being new because of the content of the song and the events which surround their being sung
AGuest, there is a beautiful tradition I wonder if you know about. Once you know the tradition you can search to see if what I say is true. The wedding tradition of the people of Palastine in ancient times, as are often practiced even today, included a few key events which are familar to us in another manner.
- A bride is selected from his people, by the father, a family member or trusted friend for the groom
- The bridegroom goes to the home of the bride with wine to negotiate and pay a bride price
- The bride, if she accepts the proposal and agrees to the price settled upon by her father and the bride groom symbolizes her acceptance by drinking from the same cup of wine as her bridegroom.
- The bridegroom goes back to his Father's home to prepare a place for their marriage, called a chuppah, and generally waits a year.
- The bridegroom is seen by neighbors and is, as part of the tradition, when the wedding will be— he will answer "nobody knows but my father", because the father is the one who says when the chuppah is ready, although it's standard for a virgin that it's is about a year's time.
- When the father says to the son that it's time, then the son proceeds to return to the house of the bride...
- It is the middle of the night, he because the ceremony of "wedding" is to steal the bride away to his father's house
- So that he is not mistaken for a thief in the night, he or his friend, call out in the night as they approach the home.
- The bride hurries out prepared to meet him (she has things that she does during the year too, mainly cleansing and preparing to be a wife)
- The procession includes lamps and on the return to the Father's home many come out to join them in joyous procession
There's more detail, step-by-step with durations of what happens upon return, the marriage feast, the chuppah, when the veil is lifted (revealing the bride), etc.
The point is, the bride, and we can open a new thread for this — please do and I'll share all that I know! there is much and its such a rich story! — drinks from the same cup as the bridegroom to accept his proposal. Christ paid for his bride with his life, and we know the cup he had to drink. He even asked if his apostles could drink from the same cup, then realizing that they would.
The 144,000 all die, despite what it is that the Watchtower teaches. They teach that they don't because they need to explain how it is that there are people who go to heaven transformed but not dead, because they teach ONLY the 144k go to heaven. It's much much simplier to believe simply what the Word says.
It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.
We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.
The bride rises first to meet her bridegroom, then the virgins and those invited to the marriage feast join the procession.
There is no one who replaces unfaithful Israel. Hosea tells the torrid story of her affairs, her children, her being sent away and losing her name. Yet, Hosea 2 reminds us our Father said of his Israel, "I will betroth you to me forever". All of Hosea confirms that he will restore her, wooing her.
Romans 11:1: "Has God rejected his people? God forbid!"
Christendom (which includes all religions of Christianity, including the Watchtower) has done violence to the Word of God.
Paul explained much to the congregations which shed light on the great sacred secret revealed to him of the body of Christ. They, knowing the old covenant, the new covenant, and the culture and keeping true to the intent of the scriptures, accepted what he said because he didn't change what the scriptures said, but added a depth of meaning not yet realized or previously revealed.
This is fascinating stuff. I study the scriptures like Band on the Run, Revelation is favorite of mine, but I actually more than anything love the whole canon as one book, we call the bible. I mean that I don't take a "chapter" (one book) as it were, but I now examine as the entire book—the "bible"—which is why I refer to it as a story, because it's one story.
I need to get to work, so I have to close here and pick up when I get on my commute. I will leave you with this.
I to learn all truth from the spirit of truth which teaches us. However, all the truth and nothing happens without being revealed in the scriptures. So I am curious how you know all about the how Revelation was written and why, so I can study it because it's not there and it changes how we would view that book of prophecy (if we accept what you said). My teacher will not allow me to believe what is not the Word of God.
I refer to Messias the Christos as Y'shua, which is a short form of Yehowah 'is' Shua, meaning "Yehowah is Salvation". I will alternately use the other forms of his name, Yeshua or Yehoshua; I often just use Y'shua. Yah as used by David in his songs, or Halleluyah, the only form of YHWH which appears in Revelation or in any original Greek manuscripts (as opposed to Hebrew translations of the Greek) is an important part of my worship as well.
J and Jehovah
I do not use "J" because J simply didn't exist until recent history. It is ignorance and I whince each time people use it.
I do not use Jehovah, why? Read about Babylon's Jeh (the Zoroastrian demoness of lust, better known in Babylon as "the whore", consort to the "destructive spirit"). Then read about the Hebrews Hovah (ruin and disaster, occurs three times in the scriptures, referring to... guess who?).
The Watchtower in their arrogance say that if they were to use the Hebrew name of God then we'd have to use the Hebrew name of his son (Jesus is the Latin form of the Greek name of his Hebrew name.)
Well, more so than consistency is simply for me the meaning of the proper use of the names— Yehowah (YHWH) and all the theophoric names which were passed down generation to generation which tell us how to pronounce it, and all the data points in the scriptures which that pronuciation uphold about what we know of the name of YHWH, and that he gave his name to his son, and it was above any other name given: Yehowah is Salvation.
Sorry AGuest, remember, I wasn't looking for a mommy. Though I do love you and mean it!
Oh, and since you said "probably seen as YHWH", please look into the history of the letter J. It was simply a decorative "I".
AGuest are you "Shelby"? Someone used that name earlier but wasn't sure if that was referring to you? I am very much looking forward to talking with you! Sounds like we have much to share together!
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Music you never noticed was ...
by nibbled ini have friends in very cool jobs.
my world interacts quite often with music stars, and i have interesting conversations.
for instance, i was talking with the members of animal kingdom, and asked the lead singer about the lyrics i picked up while listening them perform for the group a few minutes earlier... i felt stupid because i hadn't realized the name of the song, and only had caught a few lyrics... he wrote of mephistopheles.
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nibbled
I have friends in very cool jobs. My world interacts quite often with music stars, and I have interesting conversations.
For instance, I was talking with the members of Animal Kingdom, and asked the lead singer about the lyrics I picked up while listening them perform for the group a few minutes earlier... I felt stupid because I hadn't realized the name of the song, and only had caught a few lyrics... he wrote of Mephistopheles. I was distracted during the performance, and it was standing before him that I realized that he could see I had recognized his "All Along the Watchtower" intent, but hadn't heard the keyword of who he summoned, "So, Music Mephistopheles I summon you to sing for me". (Look it up; I'm not gonna link it, read first who/what Mephisto is before you groove, please!)
A few months ago I was listening to a band I saw perform recently at a major music festival in Austin, Texas, called Mumford and Sons. I was walking in the park and though I'd gotten to see them sidestage, I hadn't really heard the lyrics, the same as being up close and personal with Animal Kingdom and missing the point. Have you listened to Babel? Or Sigh No More? Can you hear what he's singing...?
Then finally I felt like there was something going on and I was the last to know. New albums drop on Tuesdays, and I was the first to listen to a new album that particular Tuesday, and while it played I jumped in the shower. I had just hoped from something relaxing, it seems I'd been so sensitive lately to the lyrics or intent of music and I just wanted something to play while I enjoyed my shower and bubbles. You guys sing in the shower, right?
Well, I found myself cold, I was stunned. Standing before my Bose setup not beliving what I was hearing. I had sort of, well, not even, but just said in my head, maybe a prayer?, no, just said in my head, before getting in the shower... I just wished there was something good to listen to.
And here I was listening to this new release that days later was top of the rotation for all my friends in and related to the music and design industry.
So I emailed the guy. A Boy and His Kite. I asked him if he was aware of this whole Christian music masquerading as popular music thing? Well, sort of. I basically was able to express my shock.
Here's another popular but more indie band among my friends. City and Colour.
So its strange that it was popular music among my friends who believe that religion is a mental disease (I believe in God not religion, but know I would be less respected for it) that led me here.
I have a thousand plus Facebook friends, and friends who influence the music industry—and I am just dying to ask, do you know what you're listening to?
I didn't. I've heard these albums again and again, and then one day I could hear.
Is this old news? Is there something going on here? Another masquerading as innocent but bleeding light for those in the know, Avett Brothers.
I started a playlist on my music service to add all these albums—I can't call them "Christian" as a genre, they aren't so labeled and besides we'd never know any of that music anyway... but I'm thinking this is new. You guys noticed it too? The playlist is was too full a week later. I still wonder and am working up the nerve to ask my friends, do you know what you're listening to? Do you not care what he sings about, what he believes, even though you wouldn't respect me the same if you knew I believed the same as he...? (Ok. So I rhymed. I'm a dork.)
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A keyboard confessional...
by nibbled inyou guys don't know me, i'm new here.
i'm typing on an iphone (pardon any random weird iphone auto-spell corrections) and could walk home to get to my laptop but i might lose the courage to post what comes to my heart to share right now.
worse and more likely, i'll simply not be able to express what i felt right now... if i wait until i have a proper keyboard.
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nibbled
I got home and wanted to update my Gravatar so there's something of who I am. Wowza, there were nearly 20 views already and no responses. I'm putting myself to bed, I can't handle the suspense.
It's like being naked and judged. Momma always said always wear clean underwear in case you end up in an accident...
[Please break the silence before I wake up? Tell me anything as long as it's the truth!]
I headed on to Gravatar to update the photo so there's something of me. First post I made here I submitted the entry to find my face smiling back at me. Never had quite a feeling as that. I have no idea how to figure out what [email protected] I used when I signed up... any ideas on how to figure that out? Should I start a new account so I can have a face here?
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WTF? Tried Jehovahs Witnesses to delete Raymond from Wikipeda a couple minutes ago?
by Dold Agenda ini was just googling jehovas and this appears in the list at wikipedia abou raymond franz.. *theinformationon this page was removed by responsible members of the legal coorporation of jehovah's witnesses,watchtower bible and tract society of new york,inc for the sole purpose that this page spread false information about a former member of jehovah's witnesses.the authors of the page are liable and did not remain neutral with regards to the information presented.we request you write a written apology to us..
wtf!?.
apperently that didint work out.. (cur | prev)17:32, 29 january 2013 titodutta(talk | contribs) m.
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nibbled
And the Truth will set you free!
BTTT
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A keyboard confessional...
by nibbled inyou guys don't know me, i'm new here.
i'm typing on an iphone (pardon any random weird iphone auto-spell corrections) and could walk home to get to my laptop but i might lose the courage to post what comes to my heart to share right now.
worse and more likely, i'll simply not be able to express what i felt right now... if i wait until i have a proper keyboard.
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nibbled
Hi there. You guys don't know me, I'm new here. I'm typing on an iPhone (pardon any random weird iPhone auto-spell corrections) and could walk home to get to my laptop but I might lose the courage to post what comes to my heart to share right now. Worse and more likely, I'll simply not be able to express what I felt right now... If I wait until I have a proper keyboard.
I was searching my email for one I sent to my mother which I was going to share with two separate threads. One who is asking what she should do, another because they're sick to their stomach. You get the idea.
I drinking a glass of wine sitting eating dinner in a major metro area (alone; not lonely) and thinking this is simply absurd. As I began to read what I was thinking I'd share, a letter a child to her mother, regarding other children, other mothers, experiences and (lack of) love and (an abundance of) pain, I thought of what was I after? I have an incredible life with an incredible sphere of influence, yet with a thousand Facebook friends I miss my mom, my dad, and even though my siblings hang out with me when I visit, I miss that "family" that we've never had thanks to what had happened to me. I'm not bitter against an org. They are a corporate entity that cannot bleed unless the color of their blood is green. I don't really care about bringing down the Tower, I care a out, I miss, my family. I imagine most here do too? I imagine we're all tied together in the simplest sense but what we've lost through our association with the Tower. We're here, in whatever form there is, because we share pain, and memory, and the desire for it to have been some other way. It's the same of we're in denial, angry, bitter, lonely, questioning,... insert the blank.
The thing is it's my job to design using human empathy. I design to motivate human behavior. Many many years ago I wanted to dedicate myself in Bethel service employing the talents blooming towards campaigns for in J's service. I'll see if I can find the response I got from the letter I wrote to the Society reaching out about my heart felt desire. I'll post the photo, because it breaks my heart. I think I was about 12 years old, I'll know when I find it to share. I know the response by heart; as a young sister they don't recommend that I move to the area, nor do they (paraphrasing) need my services, but will keep me in mind. I'm 33 years old, and I have a career which you wouldn't believe was real, though all the proof is there so people wouldn't have to take my word for it. How terrible it feels now to offer up the "cred" that you're all likely accessing this forum using in one way or another, something I've 'touched'. I'm not here to brag. I'm here because I'm sad. All that, and I feel hopeless, having to hide because as long as I don't get kicked out, at least my mom and dad will still treat me as if I exist. I imagine that many here are in similar situations.
I don't offer answers, I just offer my brain. I was helped design networks, technology, social media, communication, interfaces. While I live in San Francisco and can reach millions of people with my voice, I care only about those in a special small sphere‚ those inside the tower, being watched.
I don't care to bring the Tower down, I care to bring my family out. And you know, I don't know that I can even say that. I just wish that I could touch their hearts, reach their hearts, that I could get through that stone wall with my love, my message, my pain, and my love, despite all the pain. Isn't it such a strange thing to be free for years upon years, and yet know that you're still tied—family.
So here I am, pouring my heart out (though it does seem some what timidly, or is that just me) to complete strangers. The thing is, I'm simply tired of having achieved a wealth of influence and power and knowledge which actually changes the world and the lives of people, literally, around the world, daily... and yet no one in my "real" life really knows me, and I can't change what matters most... some how after all these years, I can't seem to let go of love, of hope,... my family.
So while I have crazy ideas in mind, all the parts of what brought me to where I am are seeming to come to focus. It's my business brain that's in gear (hehe, I thought of "business socks", but it's not Wednesday, and I'm single...) above and beyond that of my personal interests which honestly aren't as clear as my human interests.
So here goes, and pardon me, I'm alternately lauded for my story telling or accused of rambling...
First, from a social sciences perspective, I'm interested in all the voices here. After three days participation I'm curious for things like knowing the demographics. Someone said that the WT puts out more atheists than any other religion. I'm aware of Pew, and their research, but it really does seem like there are an awful lot of voices here—more than any other single place on the Internet? Would I be crazy to imagine that through the members here there is a link to every other member on any major JW representative site on the Internet? You tell me.
Another question, thanks to who I am and what I do, that comes to the forefront of my mind, is regarding what brought you here? I want, as unreasonable as it is, to know the truth of the story of each and every one of you. I mean in as much as I have private journals I've written in, entries on online diaries that existed before the term "blog" was invented, and I hide to this very damned day.
Whether or not each individual on this forum believes in God or not, we have a shared meaning behind the word "generation" that others simply cannot understand... am I right?
And are we all not part of the same generation?
(Oh fine, for the more analytical, I would say I imagine that we're all within the range of 40 years, with a smattering of those outside the range... and if the world would end in 7 years, despite what we believe or agreeing on "how", we'd all probably live to see it, despite whatever judgement you'd pass upon yourself there on out.) :)
I wonder, is there anyone who can take me to your leader? I would like to ask permission to engage with the voices in this community. I respect what someone has provided as an outlet here.
I then wonder, is there any one here that feels me? Am I just having a crazy moment where I feel connected to a world where I am not. Are we together, or we many alone?
I wonder, with all that I've learned about motivating masses, touches hearts, reaching human empathy, finding the story, and "changing the world"... with the will of the "force" behind us, could we do more than we'd imagine... and if so, what would that be?
I'd like to get to know you, but I'd like to do that in a manner which protects everyone's identity and thanks to a post I read earlier today, protects the IDEAS from the internet and those who might hopeto anticipate and negate our energy.
Right now I'm dying to share ideas that pop into my mind, but I don't want to do that publicly.
I'm thinking that by now, while someone will have to thoroughly "vet" me for credibility, you all know each other. If we determine the means to create a private community for the means of a purpose, you each would be able to vet each other, protecting the collective identity for the larger mass who has family identity to protect, living in fear as I—and you?—do.
I also imagine that there are many ideas and stories here which collectively would guide the intent of the energy of the group. For those who believe, as I, there is a spiritual guidance which may so be inclined; for those who no longer believe, we yet all believe in the concept of love—pain, love, and family, usually.
As I leave this writing to focus instead on what I would say if it wouldn't be free for all to read—including possible lurking eyes of the governing body—I ask you to treat me kindly. I will prove myself to you, no problem. But please don't mock me. I am an orphan in as much as I've lost my family and lived without them for nearly 10 years. Life mocks me in as much as I "get back in" thorough a turn of events, only to realize there's no way that my ethics can allow me to attend and pretend to be what I cannot and will not be.
The world is much bigger than you or I. There are many things to concern ourselves with, the most important being simply and freely living—but since we all find ourselves captivity here united in a virtual forum where I imagine most do not know each other in any means other than virtually... well, there might as well be someone who risks it at to see what might be done about all that human energy.
I can't keep quiet much longer. But there's not much to be gained in being one story on one blog, confessing my identity to the world of social media (those who know me, but not who I am) just to at most end up a headline in a news media feed. No. There's something here. I feel that there are people who want something more than to solve some major issues in the blind leading the blind theology of any given religion—jeez... am I still typing??—but something in what binds us together. It's not that we were all once or nearly "Jehovah's Witnesses"... I believe it has something to do with love, and it's opposite reaction emotion—love.
I'm young. Sue me. I hear the first notes of a song you might know, from Outkast, as I wonder, "Where is the love...?"
Curious how many people who read this thread are curious? — Answer is here.* (Edit: It shows how many come from JWN, and otherwise. That's cool!)
Christ, whether you believe he's fiction or not, died as old as I am, and I believe that to be as young as old. 33.
There's no one 40 years younger than me. Is there anyone here 40 years older? I'd love especially to hear from you too!
With all the love and confession of everything that I want so much to share, stories I wish I could tell if only they wouldn't tell on me—so I'd be identified, then be considered an influence or apostate.
[I imagine the only secure means of communication here is private message. So bombard me. Tell me who I should talk so that we can create a means to do so.]
{I'm terrified. I may be brave in real life, but in real life no one knows who I am. Go easy on me. Here I have only my honest self, with no creed nor cred. But I still have a heart and bleed, and there's no shoulder for me to cry on in my life... so be kind if you can.}
*Google URL link to "Where is the Love...?" social media link data is completely anonymous and tracks only click throughs. It just shows another way than "thread views" to see how many of us there are. I only offer it as a means to show people that we're more than just one individual. We're one voice. Now, what do we have to say...?
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San Francisco or Bay Area Members?
by nibbled ini did a search and came up with some posts related to san francisco, but i couldn't figure out how to find more recent onesthey were from nearly a dozen years ago!
i was wondering if anyone lives around sf, as well as if anyone is around my age?
i'm early 30's.
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nibbled
So happy to give you laugh! :)
So I'll say, praise Yah. You know "J" didn't exist until a few (hundred) years ago? And I was wondering if you'd ever thought about the letters of the original Tetragrammaton before anyone did anything other than transliterate it. I ask because you seem so astute. One day it dawned on me that was a bunch of crock that "nobody knows how to pronounce the divine name". Before I let you in on the well kept secret perpetuated by those who were hardened so as not to be able to see nor hear, I'll let you see what you find on your own in this Hebrew game of hang man. I'll also offer clues, if you'd like! :)
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Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????
by label licker inin society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?
in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.
this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.
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nibbled
Um, so another point that I suppose I didn't make as clear as I could have, I'm not certain that the song of Moses (15:3) is the same as the new song (14:3)—Lars raised the song of Moses and I was pointing out that the song of Moses isn't new (and not the same song nor same singers). Also the original language does indicate a new song (14:3) for the 144,000 despite the "as if" rendered by some translations. The new song of the 144k (14:3) is clearly 144k only. The great multitude who also sing multiple times in heaven and compose the "all nations" part of the "bought" to be "priests and kings", which using the descriptive of (15:3) the singers would recall for us those of Rev 20:4,5. We know that the 144k all die in service (lmk if I should clarify that. It's regarding drinking bridal cup...) and we know that not all will be dead who go to heaven but some will be transformed in a twinkle. I personally feel this scripture clarifies Rev 20:4,5, where all those in heaven are described with the first resurrection.
I'm on my iPhone so I'll wait to respond to Band's post. Band, just know I am not religious, not in association with JW/WT (not DF/DA though), and believe that the scriptures are the Word of God, and the "bible" is the most fascinating book I've ever read. (And still interested in your thoughts.)
AGuest, where did you get your info you wrote in that post?? That's all news to me.