Posts by nibbled

144

WTF? Tried Jehovahs Witnesses to delete Raymond from Wikipeda a couple minutes ago?

by Dold Agenda in

jw
friends

i was just googling jehovas and this appears in the list at wikipedia abou raymond franz.. *theinformationon this page was removed by responsible members of the legal coorporation of jehovah's witnesses,watchtower bible and tract society of new york,inc for the sole purpose that this page spread false information about a former member of jehovah's witnesses.the authors of the page are liable and did not remain neutral with regards to the information presented.we request you write a written apology to us..

wtf!?.

apperently that didint work out.. (cur | prev)17:32, 29 january 2013 titodutta(talk | contribs) m.

nibbled

And the Truth will set you free!

BTTT

33

A keyboard confessional...

by nibbled in

you guys don't know me, i'm new here.

i'm typing on an iphone (pardon any random weird iphone auto-spell corrections) and could walk home to get to my laptop but i might lose the courage to post what comes to my heart to share right now.

worse and more likely, i'll simply not be able to express what i felt right now... if i wait until i have a proper keyboard.

nibbled

Hi there. You guys don't know me, I'm new here. I'm typing on an iPhone (pardon any random weird iPhone auto-spell corrections) and could walk home to get to my laptop but I might lose the courage to post what comes to my heart to share right now. Worse and more likely, I'll simply not be able to express what I felt right now... If I wait until I have a proper keyboard.

I was searching my email for one I sent to my mother which I was going to share with two separate threads. One who is asking what she should do, another because they're sick to their stomach. You get the idea.

I drinking a glass of wine sitting eating dinner in a major metro area (alone; not lonely) and thinking this is simply absurd. As I began to read what I was thinking I'd share, a letter a child to her mother, regarding other children, other mothers, experiences and (lack of) love and (an abundance of) pain, I thought of what was I after? I have an incredible life with an incredible sphere of influence, yet with a thousand Facebook friends I miss my mom, my dad, and even though my siblings hang out with me when I visit, I miss that "family" that we've never had thanks to what had happened to me. I'm not bitter against an org. They are a corporate entity that cannot bleed unless the color of their blood is green. I don't really care about bringing down the Tower, I care a out, I miss, my family. I imagine most here do too? I imagine we're all tied together in the simplest sense but what we've lost through our association with the Tower. We're here, in whatever form there is, because we share pain, and memory, and the desire for it to have been some other way. It's the same of we're in denial, angry, bitter, lonely, questioning,... insert the blank.

The thing is it's my job to design using human empathy. I design to motivate human behavior. Many many years ago I wanted to dedicate myself in Bethel service employing the talents blooming towards campaigns for in J's service. I'll see if I can find the response I got from the letter I wrote to the Society reaching out about my heart felt desire. I'll post the photo, because it breaks my heart. I think I was about 12 years old, I'll know when I find it to share. I know the response by heart; as a young sister they don't recommend that I move to the area, nor do they (paraphrasing) need my services, but will keep me in mind. I'm 33 years old, and I have a career which you wouldn't believe was real, though all the proof is there so people wouldn't have to take my word for it. How terrible it feels now to offer up the "cred" that you're all likely accessing this forum using in one way or another, something I've 'touched'. I'm not here to brag. I'm here because I'm sad. All that, and I feel hopeless, having to hide because as long as I don't get kicked out, at least my mom and dad will still treat me as if I exist. I imagine that many here are in similar situations.

I don't offer answers, I just offer my brain. I was helped design networks, technology, social media, communication, interfaces. While I live in San Francisco and can reach millions of people with my voice, I care only about those in a special small sphere‚ those inside the tower, being watched.

I don't care to bring the Tower down, I care to bring my family out. And you know, I don't know that I can even say that. I just wish that I could touch their hearts, reach their hearts, that I could get through that stone wall with my love, my message, my pain, and my love, despite all the pain. Isn't it such a strange thing to be free for years upon years, and yet know that you're still tied—family.

So here I am, pouring my heart out (though it does seem some what timidly, or is that just me) to complete strangers. The thing is, I'm simply tired of having achieved a wealth of influence and power and knowledge which actually changes the world and the lives of people, literally, around the world, daily... and yet no one in my "real" life really knows me, and I can't change what matters most... some how after all these years, I can't seem to let go of love, of hope,... my family.

So while I have crazy ideas in mind, all the parts of what brought me to where I am are seeming to come to focus. It's my business brain that's in gear (hehe, I thought of "business socks", but it's not Wednesday, and I'm single...) above and beyond that of my personal interests which honestly aren't as clear as my human interests.

So here goes, and pardon me, I'm alternately lauded for my story telling or accused of rambling...

First, from a social sciences perspective, I'm interested in all the voices here. After three days participation I'm curious for things like knowing the demographics. Someone said that the WT puts out more atheists than any other religion. I'm aware of Pew, and their research, but it really does seem like there are an awful lot of voices here—more than any other single place on the Internet? Would I be crazy to imagine that through the members here there is a link to every other member on any major JW representative site on the Internet? You tell me.

Another question, thanks to who I am and what I do, that comes to the forefront of my mind, is regarding what brought you here? I want, as unreasonable as it is, to know the truth of the story of each and every one of you. I mean in as much as I have private journals I've written in, entries on online diaries that existed before the term "blog" was invented, and I hide to this very damned day.

Whether or not each individual on this forum believes in God or not, we have a shared meaning behind the word "generation" that others simply cannot understand... am I right?

And are we all not part of the same generation?

(Oh fine, for the more analytical, I would say I imagine that we're all within the range of 40 years, with a smattering of those outside the range... and if the world would end in 7 years, despite what we believe or agreeing on "how", we'd all probably live to see it, despite whatever judgement you'd pass upon yourself there on out.) :)

I wonder, is there anyone who can take me to your leader? I would like to ask permission to engage with the voices in this community. I respect what someone has provided as an outlet here.

I then wonder, is there any one here that feels me? Am I just having a crazy moment where I feel connected to a world where I am not. Are we together, or we many alone?

I wonder, with all that I've learned about motivating masses, touches hearts, reaching human empathy, finding the story, and "changing the world"... with the will of the "force" behind us, could we do more than we'd imagine... and if so, what would that be?

I'd like to get to know you, but I'd like to do that in a manner which protects everyone's identity and thanks to a post I read earlier today, protects the IDEAS from the internet and those who might hopeto anticipate and negate our energy.

Right now I'm dying to share ideas that pop into my mind, but I don't want to do that publicly.

I'm thinking that by now, while someone will have to thoroughly "vet" me for credibility, you all know each other. If we determine the means to create a private community for the means of a purpose, you each would be able to vet each other, protecting the collective identity for the larger mass who has family identity to protect, living in fear as I—and you?—do.

I also imagine that there are many ideas and stories here which collectively would guide the intent of the energy of the group. For those who believe, as I, there is a spiritual guidance which may so be inclined; for those who no longer believe, we yet all believe in the concept of love—pain, love, and family, usually.

As I leave this writing to focus instead on what I would say if it wouldn't be free for all to read—including possible lurking eyes of the governing body—I ask you to treat me kindly. I will prove myself to you, no problem. But please don't mock me. I am an orphan in as much as I've lost my family and lived without them for nearly 10 years. Life mocks me in as much as I "get back in" thorough a turn of events, only to realize there's no way that my ethics can allow me to attend and pretend to be what I cannot and will not be.

The world is much bigger than you or I. There are many things to concern ourselves with, the most important being simply and freely living—but since we all find ourselves captivity here united in a virtual forum where I imagine most do not know each other in any means other than virtually... well, there might as well be someone who risks it at to see what might be done about all that human energy.

I can't keep quiet much longer. But there's not much to be gained in being one story on one blog, confessing my identity to the world of social media (those who know me, but not who I am) just to at most end up a headline in a news media feed. No. There's something here. I feel that there are people who want something more than to solve some major issues in the blind leading the blind theology of any given religion—jeez... am I still typing??—but something in what binds us together. It's not that we were all once or nearly "Jehovah's Witnesses"... I believe it has something to do with love, and it's opposite reaction emotion—love.

I'm young. Sue me. I hear the first notes of a song you might know, from Outkast, as I wonder, "Where is the love...?"

Curious how many people who read this thread are curious? — Answer is here.* (Edit: It shows how many come from JWN, and otherwise. That's cool!)

Christ, whether you believe he's fiction or not, died as old as I am, and I believe that to be as young as old. 33.

There's no one 40 years younger than me. Is there anyone here 40 years older? I'd love especially to hear from you too!

With all the love and confession of everything that I want so much to share, stories I wish I could tell if only they wouldn't tell on me—so I'd be identified, then be considered an influence or apostate.

[I imagine the only secure means of communication here is private message. So bombard me. Tell me who I should talk so that we can create a means to do so.]

{I'm terrified. I may be brave in real life, but in real life no one knows who I am. Go easy on me. Here I have only my honest self, with no creed nor cred. But I still have a heart and bleed, and there's no shoulder for me to cry on in my life... so be kind if you can.}

*Google URL link to "Where is the Love...?" social media link data is completely anonymous and tracks only click throughs. It just shows another way than "thread views" to see how many of us there are. I only offer it as a means to show people that we're more than just one individual. We're one voice. Now, what do we have to say...?

109

San Francisco or Bay Area Members?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i did a search and came up with some posts related to san francisco, but i couldn't figure out how to find more recent onesthey were from nearly a dozen years ago!

i was wondering if anyone lives around sf, as well as if anyone is around my age?

i'm early 30's.

nibbled

So happy to give you laugh! :)

So I'll say, praise Yah. You know "J" didn't exist until a few (hundred) years ago? And I was wondering if you'd ever thought about the letters of the original Tetragrammaton before anyone did anything other than transliterate it. I ask because you seem so astute. One day it dawned on me that was a bunch of crock that "nobody knows how to pronounce the divine name". Before I let you in on the well kept secret perpetuated by those who were hardened so as not to be able to see nor hear, I'll let you see what you find on your own in this Hebrew game of hang man. I'll also offer clues, if you'd like! :)

50

Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker in

in society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?

in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.

this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.

nibbled

Um, so another point that I suppose I didn't make as clear as I could have, I'm not certain that the song of Moses (15:3) is the same as the new song (14:3)—Lars raised the song of Moses and I was pointing out that the song of Moses isn't new (and not the same song nor same singers). Also the original language does indicate a new song (14:3) for the 144,000 despite the "as if" rendered by some translations. The new song of the 144k (14:3) is clearly 144k only. The great multitude who also sing multiple times in heaven and compose the "all nations" part of the "bought" to be "priests and kings", which using the descriptive of (15:3) the singers would recall for us those of Rev 20:4,5. We know that the 144k all die in service (lmk if I should clarify that. It's regarding drinking bridal cup...) and we know that not all will be dead who go to heaven but some will be transformed in a twinkle. I personally feel this scripture clarifies Rev 20:4,5, where all those in heaven are described with the first resurrection.

I'm on my iPhone so I'll wait to respond to Band's post. Band, just know I am not religious, not in association with JW/WT (not DF/DA though), and believe that the scriptures are the Word of God, and the "bible" is the most fascinating book I've ever read. (And still interested in your thoughts.)

AGuest, where did you get your info you wrote in that post?? That's all news to me.

37

Visited Beth Sarim today

by exwhyzee in

my sister in law has been shunned by the family since she da'd herself at the age of 18 and moved out of the house.

i always insisted that my wife keep in contact with her and made sure she knew she had a soft place to land,with us, should she need it.

even at the risk of it getting us in hot water with the pioneer,elder,bethelite family members there was no way we were going to let her disappear into the wild blue yonder on her own.

nibbled

And Beth Shan?

Scott77: Private family.

Las Malvinas son Argentinas: I've thought about printing out the old Watchtower's (see archive.org for scans of originals, or list here) and mailing them to my parents house. Maybe they'd read the Watchtower?

Rutherford died in 1942 in San Diego in a mansion he'd named "Beth Sarim"—that I have yet to go see. The "Salvation" book (1939) explains that in 1929 they built the "House of Princes". In 1930, The Golden Age printed the deed.

Beth Sarim & Beth Shan in San Diego

72

Sickening Dilemma

by ItsMyLife in

i would like to have your opinions on what i should do about a situation please.. i have recently discovered that a 'brother' in the congregation (which i no longer attend) is a child molester.

i've seen documentation from his psychiatrist dated a few years ago, stating that he doesn't feel that this person is likely to offend again.

the 'brother' has said to the elders at some point that he has it under control but cannot be 100% sure it won't happen again.

nibbled

If you have reason to believe that a child is or has been abused, there are mandatory reporting laws which require reporting it in most states.

https://www.childwelfare.gov/responding/reporting.cfm

Even if it is not mandatory it is obvious that your heart is guiding you to take action.

Remember, even if that sister's children would somehow be safe, it there are so many other children within his reach. Read about all these children who might have found protection if someone like you'd known and stepped up: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917798/ns/nbcnightlynews/t/new-evidence-jehovahs-witness-allegations/#.UISz4Wl27ek — they are all "brothers" from ONE area, including one of America's Most Wanted.

I commend you for having the heart and courage to protect the children, both those you know and those you do not. The elders speaking to that one sister (or believing that he will???) are not looking out for all of God's children, nor apparently concerned with reporting laws. "Privilege" from it being a private "spiritual" matter doesn't apply in many states—but you, regardless, are not bound by any such privelege.

Our Father will remember your deed.

50

Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker in

in society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?

in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.

this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.

nibbled

Thanks label licker for pointing this out. I downloaded the Revelation book pdf to check it out and it's a marvel. Another point to ask my parents about. My parents have moved from attempting to answer my questions to basically ignoring me, but I'm hoping that one day they'll have had enough with the strange points to searching for the truth. I had never realized that they identify the elders with the 144,000, and it of course makes no sense as the elders are in heaven before the bride arrives.

Lars the song of Moses that is sang is not noted as being limited to the 144,000 alone, specifically. Also there are those in the earliest memory of the scriptures which sang the same song, see Ex 15:1; Dt 31:22 .

Band on the Run I'm a New Yorker subscriber, I'll have to see if I still have the March 2012 issue at home. I wanted to say that I agree with you, and Elaine, that it is a coded message which details events in that time, similar to the message of Matthew 24 which depicted events to come before the generation who stood before Christ would pass away—and a generation is defined in scripture as 40 years. Right on time, 70 CE. I am curious however to your feelings on what is left in our life, after recognizing that the events of 70CE and Nero?

As I personally understand the Word, he left us a pattern to recognize. His words of Matthew 24 were fulfilled in the first century at the end of the Jewish system of things, so that the Jewish Christians might be fortified by faith in the word of the Word, that what he spoke was true. Imagine how quickly faith in the Christ as the Messiah could have faltered had there been no first century fulfillment. However, while the congregation recognized the events of Matthew 24 in 70CE, all the events of Daniel were not fulfilled, leaving us still seeking more to come. Then came the Revelation which, written after 70CE, depict the things to come that were revealed to Daniel. Again, similar to Matthew 24, Revelation both applied to that generation, but also to those today—we at the end of the Christian system of things. Interestingly to be Christian is to be, as opposed to the Jews, without law—lawless. We, and the first century Christians, live in the Christian system, without law, and overshadowed by the man of lawlessness whose mystery was already at work way back then, but is close to being revealed as we await his return which does just that. The apostles died, and as soon as they were away (relatively speaking) Christendom was born. The kingdom of the false Christ. Where he said that he was our head, and our mediator, and no one can come to the father except through him, Christendom stands in his place. Revelation opens with letters direct to the congregations, yet today the majority of Christians are within denominations and accept instruction only by means of men who claim to be the only ones with access to the communication of Christ.

As I mentioned before, I'd to discuss Revelation with you! I've studied it from so many aspects, and generally people are turned off by the book, or are focused on certain points as opposed to understanding the book as a whole. I'm hoping you'll forgive my ill chosen words earlier and take me up and a meaty discussion?

You mentioned seven or so books you've read, would you recommend any in addition to Elaine's?

50

Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker in

in society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?

in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.

this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.

nibbled

Band on the Run,

Oh dear! I'm so sorry Band on the Run, I was complimenting you! I only meant as much as to note that there's a difference in formulating a personal thesis, and being prepared to share one, and since you mentioned all the references, as well as not having gotten yet to Elaine's "second point" I was eager to hear your thoughts once you were to that point!

I wouldn't want to compare hours or books read, I recognize some students never study and yet pass through courses with top marks, while others put long and hard hours into applying themselves to the material to achieve the same. Not that this compares you and I, I wouldn't even know nor dare! :)

I would offer that I share similar passion. I've never had a fear of the book, but then again I was raised with the WT's Revelation book making everything bad about everyone else. I'm passionate about the book because one day I a strong desire to know the Christ more personally. I pray "through" him, and only knew of him from the "good news" books written about his life of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. At a loss as to what I thought I could do to become more personally acquainted with him, it suddenly dawned on me—Revelation. It's his book, his only book. His personal book. It's the Word of God in the word of God.

I considered his book like movie, and tried to let scenes play out in my mind as I read, understanding he's telling a story, and we're the ones who've jumbled it up. I took the whole text and put it into one removing the chapter breaks to read it as it would have been written (I think I left in the verse markers, I can't recall, I'd have to go back and look). I did not go back to read the Revelation Book from the WT again, because I recognized that Matthew 24 parallels the four horsemen, yet vividly recall the rider on the white horse being depicted as Christ, while Matthew 24 if an indeed parallel of the events of the four horsemen, portrays the looks-like-Christ guy as the false Christ's who go out and conquer well meaning Christians seeking His return. (That and many other things—like my mind gets into an angry heap when I look at their trumpets explanation which isn't even in the proper order of events!)

I have read papers written by historical theologians, and I understand the events of Rome in the first century, and the affect of the book on the congregation.

Here's where I wonder about talking to you personally about your personal thoughts. I don't mean to compete. I am a member of another forum where it's all about academic smack-down and frankly that's why I'm here. I needed a break from whose brain more stuffed. I care a lot about people—I'm motivated by love, and want to know what people, especially discerning people think. You seem to be just that sort! I wanted to hear more and talk to you, specifically!

Since you've been decades doing stuff, you probably have age on me. I'm only 'decades' old, three score and three times and a season.

Since it seems we're both passionate about the book of Revelation, I hope that you'll accept my apology. I didn't mean to start your morning out with an offense! When you drink your next cup of Joe, I hope you'll think of that warm and brightening feeling in association with me. :)

I've got to get dressed and go catch my shuttle to work, but I'll be looking back as soon as I get online hoping to see your response, or to continue now to share my thoughts, my reply to what you said. I also feel like I didn't respond to the original question asked last night so much as offer points to others posts. Its hard to navigate the site via only iPhone!

50

Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker in

in society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?

in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.

this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.

nibbled

Lars you mentioned that Moses and the root or stump were Jewish. They weren't, all the patriarchs in fact were all Hebrew, and neither Israelites nor Jews. The root which branches are grafted from and to is not Israel nor Judah but the roots of faith in the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Also "Gentiles" is a rendering for "goyim" which is Jewish. The Jews use it today as a derogatory term for anyone not Jewish. The NWT renders it "people of the nations". However it's rendered it was also used to describe Israel by the Jews who considered them apostate in their worship, and of the nations as they weren't of their nation, Judah.

More are the children of the barren woman, Jerusalem above our mother, than she who is married. The great crowd above numbers "unlimited" regardless of those who live through Armageddon on earth. She who is married speaks only to Jerusalem below, not all mankind.

AGuest, looks like we've come into the same "all truth".

Band on the Run, I'd be interested to learn more of your perspective, especially once you've read a few more authors than just the one professor, or dug into the scriptures a bit deeper. (Or just heart to heart discussion is my favorite—learn together?) I agree with your statement regarding needing the context to even begin to understand. Consider this for me... What if there were the old covenant, the good news of the kingdom, the king rejected, the pause button on that movie for the interval for the great sacred secret revealed to and by Paul before picking up again after the fullness of the nations had come in? The letters to the Hebrews are comfort (Kingdom Epistles). Revelation is the end story after the veil is lifted off Israel.

I also heard John didn't believe in Jesus when he lived. Why does your prof believe Revelation is against Paul? Does she recognize its writer as inspired as the scribe for Christ's sole book as the Word of God in the word of God?

109

San Francisco or Bay Area Members?

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i did a search and came up with some posts related to san francisco, but i couldn't figure out how to find more recent onesthey were from nearly a dozen years ago!

i was wondering if anyone lives around sf, as well as if anyone is around my age?

i'm early 30's.

nibbled

I don't want to host an "apostafest". I take apostasy seriously, though I am able to use Strong's to define it from a scriptural perspective as opposed to the organization's Insight on the Scriptures.

I'm not even sure that the people I was hoping to meet would be comfortable with that label.

Can you help me understand Purza?