Posts by nibbled

15

144,000 before 1935?

by nolongerconfused in

i've always thought about this but have never received an answer on how the wbts explaiend the phenomenon.... to my understanding, every member of the wbts had the heavenly hope...however, by 2 classes were created...the heavenly, and earthly hope.... does anyone know the number of jw's as of that famous assembly of 1935 where the earthly hope was revealed and imposed?.

what is the wbts explanation for the thousands of jw's who had heavenly hope now all of a sudden have the earthly hope?.

this leads me to one conclusion...how dare this or any other organization determine what your hope or believe should be...shame on them.

nibbled

You might enjoy this write up, it speaks to the progression of the teaching of the Watchtower as it neared the point of the Witnesses out number the number they'd say were allowed in heaven.

Heaven is Full—the hope of the Great Crowd

32

Yehowah, the divine name known by the Watchtower, but not used.

by nibbled in

(yeho?wah); gr., ?

the participle ho?weh is from the root verb ha?wah, related to the divine name, yehowah.. .

heb., yehowah.

nibbled

It's like calling on Satan.

There's a difference in translating a name, and replacing a name with a subtly different one which refers to something or someone else altogether.

The end of the post addresses that "Jehovah" isn't English and isn't a translation of the divine name.

Why does it not matter to you? I only care to share what I learn with others who are interested in learning "all the truth". If you're not interested, I'm not offended. I enjoy exposition but not argumentation.

I haven't met Hillary yet, but she uses a great example. Paul, as a world traveler, knew his name in many languages. Saul being his Hebrew name, Paul his Latin name. I personally have a Latin name and when I travel the world though it is translated sometimes, it is like Paul/Saul very similar and means the same name, regardless of language.

Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible. To the Jews I became a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law - though I myself am not under the law - to win over those under the law. To those outside the law I became like one outside the law. To the weak I became weak to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some. All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it. (1 Cor 9:19-23; see also 1 Cor 10:33, Rom 15:1)

32

Yehowah, the divine name known by the Watchtower, but not used.

by nibbled in

(yeho?wah); gr., ?

the participle ho?weh is from the root verb ha?wah, related to the divine name, yehowah.. .

heb., yehowah.

nibbled

Written originally as an email, sharing here for discussion purposes. It's easist to skip the indented references and just read the commentary, and then go back to research references if you're interested. See also Watchtower Online Library: Yehowah.

Jehovah, and the Hebrew divine name, Yehowah

The participle howeh′ is from the root verb hawah′, related to the divine name, Yehowah′. — NWT Reference Bible

"the translation committee has used the form “Jehovah” because of its familiarity and because it preserves the four original letters of the Hebrew name. [Excuse me? Pop question Witnesses: What are the four original letters of the Hebrew name?] In God’s own time when He reveals the correct pronunciation of his holy name, we will gladly make the accurate correction." — Watchtower 1950, pg 317, paragraph 14

Unfortunately, despite the fact that the Watchtower is God's sole channel of communication on earth, despite the fact that you cannot locate that phrase anywhere on the WTDVD, but they keep claiming that Jesus instead is that sole channel—either way, they are not privy to the correct pronunciation?

I wonder if someone did tell them, albeit not God himself, but God in his own time, and perhaps even revealed it in their own publications, would they indeed gladly make the accurate correction???

The New World Translation Reference Bible:

The participle howeh′ is from the root verb hawah′, related to the divine name, Yehowah′.

*** w07 6/15 p. 32 “Do You Know God by Name?” ***
In many places, in fact “to the most distant part of the earth,” people are becoming acquainted with the divine name, Jehovah. (Acts 1:8) For example, this name in the Turkmen language, Yehowa , can readily be found in the Turkmen translation of the Holy Scriptures.
*** w08 8/1 p. 21 Should the Name Jehovah Appear in the New Testament? ***
YEHOWA: Ga; Laotian; (Ki)Songe; Tshiluba
YEOHOWA: Korean
YAHOWA: Thai
YHWH: Hebrew
*** yb73 pp. 142-143 Ghana ***
These translations were so accurate, as far as the languages were concerned, that the Ewe and Ga ones are still the only translations in use, with very little revision.
One more commendable feature of their translations is the use of the Divine Name. This, rendered Iehowa and Yehowa, appears in the Hebrew Scriptures in almost all its proper places in all three translations. The Ewe and Ga translators did even better than that. They used the Divine Name in the Greek Scriptures, in Ga at 2 Corinthians 6:17 and 18 and in Ewe at Hebrews 7:21; 13:6; 1 Peter 3:12 and in the book of Revelation wherever the expression “Hallelujah” occurs.
The early missionaries thus taught the people that the name of the God-in-Chief is Iehowa or Yehowa. They established schools and taught the people how to read. They also produced books and booklets setting forth simplified historical narratives of the Bible and encouraged their reading. All this helped to give the natives some basic information about the Bible and to acquaint them with the Divine Name.
*** jv chap. 11 p. 154 How We Came to Be Known as Yehowah’s Witnesses ***
Ewe Yehowa Ðasefowo
Ga Yehowa Odasefoi
Tshiluba Bantemu ba Yehowa
Twi Yehowa Adansefo
*** g79 6/8 p. 24 Translating the Bible in India ***
Fabricius’ version ranks as one of the most notable achievements in the whole field of Bible translation. It came to be known as the ‘Golden Version.’ All subsequent Tamil revisions were based on this work. Interestingly, the revision of 1936 rendered God’s personal name as Yehowah throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.
*** w57 10/15 p. 628 International Praise to the One God ***
This includes the forty-eight times where the Jewish Sopherim changed the early Hebrew text to read Adoay′ instead of Yehowah′, which the New World Translation has restored to their primitive reading.
*** w59 4/15 p. 250 Part 12—“Your Will Be Done on Earth” ***
This is one of 134 places where the Jewish copyists or Sopherim say they changed the primitive Hebrew text to read Adonay (“the Lord”) instead of Yehowah or Yahweh (“Jehovah”).
*** w66 12/15 p. 746 No Healing Till Houses Are Without Man ***
As to the occurrence of the name Jehovah here, the footnote b on Isaiah 6:1 as given in Volume 4 of the New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, edition of 1958, says: “‘Jehovah,’ Syriac and about 100 Hebrew manuscripts; ‘the dignity of Jehovah,’ Targum, ‘the Lord,’ LXX; Do′mi?nus, Vulgate Adonay′, Masoretic and Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah. This is one of the 134 passages in which the Jewish Sopherim changed the primitive Hebrew text to read Adonay′ instead of Yehowah′.”
*** pm chap. 2 pp. 26-27 par. 12 Why Highest Hopes Were Disappointed ***
Who, though, told “Jehovah of armies” what “this people” had been saying? Why, Jehovah of armies himself had heard it with his marvelous means of hearing from heaven. It was a striking way in which he referred to himself, namely, as “Jehovah of armies” (Yehowah′ Tsebaoth′, in Hebrew). Throughout the inspired Hebrew Scriptures, from Genesis to Malachi, this designation “Jehovah of armies” occurs 281 times, the prophet Samuel being the first to use it in writing, (1 Samuel 1:3)
*** Rbi8 Luke 2:11 ***
“Christ [the] Lord.” Gr., Khristos′ ky′rios. This expression might be a Gr. rendering of the Heb. mashi′ach Yehowah′, “Jehovah’s Christ,” as in J5-8,10. See 2:26.
*** Rbi8 Matthew ***
“Jehovah’s.” J3,4,7-14,16-18,22-24 (Heb.), ???? (Yeho?wah′); Gr., Κυρ?ου (Ky?ri′ou), without the definite article, “Lord’s.” The Holy Scriptures, by J. N. Darby, 1920 (corresponding to the German “Elberfelder Bibel,” 1891), says in a ftn on Mt 1:20: “ ‘Lord’ without the article, signifying as very often, ‘Jehovah.’ ” This is the first of 237 places in the Christian Greek Scriptures where the divine name “Jehovah” occurs in the main text of this translation. In addition it occurs 72 times in the ftns but not in the main text. See App 1D.
“Jesus.” Gr., ?Ιησο?ν (I?e?soun′); J1-14,16-18,22 (Heb.), ???? (Ye?shu′a?, “Jeshua,” meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation”).
*** Rbi8 Ecclesiastes 2:22 ***
Lit., “what is there proving to be for the man?” Heb., meh-ho?weh′ la?'a?dham′? The participle ho?weh′ is from the root verb ha?wah′, related to the divine name, Yehowah′.

See interlinear for "get" for pronuciation.

*** Rbi8 Leviticus 25:17 ***
Heb., Yehowah′. See App 1A.
*** it-2 p. 21 Jehovah of Armies ***
This expression, found 283 times, with variations, in the Scriptures, translates the Hebrew Yehowah′ tseva'ohth′. The prophetic books, particularly Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Zechariah, contain by far the majority of its occurrences. Paul and James, quoting from or alluding to the prophecies, used the expression (transliterated into Greek) in their writings.—Ro 9:29; Jas 5:4; compare Isa 1:9.
*** w05 7/15 p. 13 “Clear Light” on the Bible From Russia’s Oldest Library ***
The diligent work of scribes throughout the ages has been involved in its preservation. The most meticulous of these were the Masoretes, professional Hebrew scribes who worked from the sixth to the tenth century C.E. Ancient Hebrew was written without vowels. Over time, this increased the danger of losing the proper pronunciation as Aramaic replaced Hebrew. The Masoretes developed a system of vowel points to add to the Bible text in order to indicate the correct pronunciation of Hebrew words.
Significantly, the Masoretic vowel points in the Leningrad Codex allow for the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton—the four Hebrew consonants making up the divine name—as Yehwah’, Yehwih’, and Yehowah’. Unfortunately, “Jehovah” is now the most widely known pronunciation of the name. The divine name was a living, familiar term to Bible writers and others of ancient times. Today, God’s name is known and used by millions of Jehovah's Witnesses who acknowledge that ‘Jehovah alone is the Most High over all the earth.’—Psalm 83:18.
*** dx86-10 Hebrew (Language) ***
Yehowah tseva'ohth (Jehovah of armies): it-2 21
*** Rbi8 p. 1561 1A The Divine Name in the Hebrew Scriptures ***
The text located in the U.S.S.R., namely, the Codex Leningrad B 19A, used for Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (BHS), vowel-points the Tetragrammaton to read Yehwah′, Yehwih′ and a number of times Yehowah′, as in Ge 3:14. The edition of the Hebrew text by Ginsburg (Gins.) vowel-points YHWH to read Yehowah′. While many translators favor the pronunciation “Yahweh,” the New World Translation continues to use the form “Jehovah” because of people’s familiarity with it for [less than three hundred years] centuries. Moreover, it preserves, equally with other forms, the four letters of the divine name, YHWH or JHVH.
*** it-2 p. 7 Jehovah ***
The Codex Leningrad B 19A, of the 11th century C.E., vowel points the Tetragrammaton to read Yehwah′, Yehwih′, and Yeho?wah′. Ginsburg’s edition of the Masoretic text vowel points the divine name to read Yeho?wah′. (Ge 3:14, ftn) Hebrew scholars generally favor “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation. They point out that the abbreviated form of the name is Yah (Jah in the Latinized form), as at Psalm 89:8 and in the expression Ha?lelu-Yah′ (meaning “Praise Jah, you people!”). (Ps 104:35; 150:1, 6) Also, the forms Yehoh′, Yoh, Yah, and Ya′hu, found in the Hebrew spelling of the names Jehoshaphat, Joshaphat, Shephatiah, and others, can all be derived from Yahweh. Greek transliterations of the name by early Christian writers point in a somewhat similar direction with spellings such as I?a?be′ and I?a?ou?e′, which, as pronounced in Greek, resemble Yahweh. Still, there is by no means unanimity among scholars on the subject, some favoring yet other pronunciations, such as “Yahuwa,” “Yahuah,” or “Yehuah.”
Since certainty of pronunciation is not now attainable, there seems to be no reason for abandoning in English the well-known form “Jehovah” in favor of some other suggested pronunciation. If such a change were made, then, to be consistent, changes should be made in the spelling and pronunciation of a host of other names found in the Scriptures: Jeremiah would be changed to Yir?meyah′, Isaiah would become Yesha??ya′hu, and Jesus would be either Yehoh?shu′a? (as in Hebrew) or I?e?sous′ (as in Greek). The purpose of words is to transmit thoughts; in English the name Jehovah identifies the true God, transmitting this thought more satisfactorily today than any of the suggested substitutes.
*** Rbi8 Genesis 3:14 ***
Heb., Yehowah′. The first of quite a few occurrences in BHK and BHS where the divine name is vowel-pointed with the additional vowel “o.” See 2:4 ftn, “Jehovah”; App 1A.
*** Rbi8 Genesis 9:26 ***
Heb., Yehowah . See 3:14 ftn, “Jehovah.”
*** Rbi8 Genesis 15:2 ***
“Sovereign Lord Jehovah.” Heb., 'Adho?nai′ Yehwih′. Where God’s name follows the title 'Adho?nai′, as occurs here, note that the vowel pointing for YHWH changes. Here BHK reads Yehwih′ instead of Yehwah′; whereas Gins. reads Yeho?wih′ instead of Yehowah ′. See App 1E.
*** Rbi8 Exodus 3:2 ***
Heb., Yehowah′. See App 1A.
*** Rbi8 Exodus 13:3 ***
Heb., Yehowah′. See App 1A.
*** Rbi8 Exodus 13:15 ***
Heb., Yehowah′. See App 1A.
*** Rbi8 Exodus 14:1 ***
Heb., Yehowah′. See App 1A.
*** Rbi8 Exodus 14:8 ***
Heb., Yehowah′. See App 1A.
*** na pp. 9-10 God’s Name—Its Meaning and Pronunciation ***
To take the most prominent example, consider the name of Jesus. Do you know how Jesus’ family and friends addressed him in day-to-day conversation while he was growing up in Nazareth? The truth is, no human knows for certain, although it may have been something like Yeshua (or perhaps Yehoshua). It certainly was not Jesus.
However, when the accounts of his life were written in the Greek language, the inspired writers did not try to preserve that original Hebrew pronunciation. Rather, they rendered the name in Greek, I?e?sous′. Today, it is rendered differently according to the language of the reader of the Bible. Spanish Bible readers encounter Jesús (pronounced Hes?soos′). Italians spell it Gesù (pronounced Djay?zoo′). And Germans spell it Jesus (pronounced Yay′soos).

Recall that the Greek scriptures manuscripts also do not include a single reference to YHWH. So, if you want to insert it everywhere where there is no evidence it was because one argues that the scribes removed it and replaced it with Adonai, then you cannot claim that they didn't also replace Christ's Hebrew name with the Greek. (See John 4:25)

*** bh p. 195 par. 4 The Divine Name—Its Use and Its Meaning ***
Ancient Hebrew was written without vowels. Therefore, no one today can say for sure exactly how people of Bible times pronounced YHWH. However, should this prevent us from using God’s name? In Bible times, the name Jesus may have been pronounced Yeshua or possibly Yehoshua—no one can say for certain.

INDEED! Should this prevent us from using God's name? No! Never should that be! However, this doesn't mean we should go make up a new one using letters that didn't exist, Hebrew roots which are negotative or blasphemous in connotation, and ignoring the evidence given to us.

The article quoted just above points out that "Jesus" may have been pronounced Yeshua or Yehoshua. Do you know why? Because Ye[ho]shua was the name given to him by his Father, a family name. It means YHWH is Salvation, or "Y'shua". The Hebrews tended to drop letters out of the middle of names when shortening them to the more casual versions—think of it as slurring it together. Thus when we respect the name God gave his Son, the name above any other name, we should acknowledge literally that Yehowah is Salvation. Now. How did I get to "Yehowah"? Well, it's simple, even the Watchtower acknowledges the longer name was "Yehoshua" and that his name means YHWH is Salvation. What is simply ignored is that it means this LITERALLY. Do you know what literally means? If not please look it up. That "light getting brighter" for me was like a light bulb going off where I could never go back.

*** w68 10/1 p. 580 Who Is God? ***
Because there is uncertainty as to the exact pronunciation of God’s personal name, some clergymen say you should not use it at all, but instead simply say “God” or “the Lord.” However, they do not insist that you should not use the names “Jesus” and “Jeremiah.” And yet these commonly used pronunciations are quite different from the Hebrew pronunciations “Yesh′ua” and “Yirmeiah′.”
*** w70 1/1 p. 7 Get to Know the God of Truth ***
Some clergymen contend that we should stop using God’s name because we do no know the exact Hebrew pronunciation today. But these same persons will use the word “Jesus” without hesitation. Yet, that is not the way Jesus’ name was pronounced in Hebrew. It was more like Yeshu′a, or Ye–ho′shu?a.

This one makes my head hurt. Remember, there is no "J". Also, "Salvation" is "-shua", not "Yeshua" because Yeshua in itself means Yehowah is Salvation. Thus Jehovah-Yeshua would be "Jehovah Yehowah is Salvation". And while "J" didn't exist, in the Hebrew times we did have "hovah" 1943. ????? ( hovah ) -- a ruin, disaster.

*** w80 2/1 p. 6 Does God Have a Name? ***
Interestingly, the Hebrew form of “Jesus” is “Jehoshuah,” which is an abbreviated form of “Jehovah-yeshua,” meaning “Jehovah is salvation.” So there it is—the name of the Father, the Supreme Being, is JEHOVAH. And how appropriate that Jesus, as Jehovah’s agent for salvation, should thus be named after his Father!

Makes me want to puke. Read that one twice, please. Maybe three times. Do you get it? It's not his name. They don't even accurately present the meaning of the name! Compare below.

Insight: (Je′sus) [Lat. form of the Gr. I·e·sous′, which corresponds to the Heb. Ye·shu′a? or Yehoh·shu′a? and means “Jehovah Is Salvation”].
*** si pp. 42-43 par. 5 Bible Book Number 6—Joshua ***
The book of Joshua covers a period of over 20 years, from the entry into Canaan in 1473 B.C.E. to approximately 1450 B.C.E., in which year Joshua probably died. The very name Joshua (Hebrew, Yehoh?shu′a?), meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation,” is most fitting in view of Joshua’s role as visible leader in Israel during the conquest of the land. He gave all the glory to Jehovah as Deliverer. In the Septuagint the book is called I?e?sous′ (the Greek equivalent of Yehoh?shu′a?), and from this the name Jesus has been derived. In his fine qualities of courage, obedience, and integrity, Joshua was truly a splendid prophetic type of “our Lord Jesus Christ.”—Rom. 5:1.

Whoops! Where'd that extra "h" come from there??? There are more than 2 million Google results for Yehoshua, and a measly 6,940 results for Yehohshua quoted above. I wonder why they'd introduce that? Was it a mistake? Or do they not want people to realize like I did that we DO know what God's name is and how to pronouce it? Yeho[wah]shuah. I felt like an idiot when it dawned on me (pardon the punny) that it was the world's simplest game of hang man ever! When I was younger I often wondered why so many names in the scriptures had patterns to them. Eliyah — yeah, I said it. Eliyah. You know him as Elijah. If you let go of that letter "J" and just pronounce it how everyone does, regardless, besides the English, then it sounds the same. But one is based on God's name, and means "Yah is God" (from el and Yah) which is a really easy name to understand if you know that "El" means god.

Wikipedia: Joshua (Hebrew: ?????????? Yehôshúa‘); his name was Hoshe'a the son of Nun, of the tribe of Ephraim, but Moses called him Yehoshu'a (Joshua)

The funniest part to me, the part where you know that Jehovah and Yehowah are both laughing, though for different reasons, is that the Watchtower swiped the name from the Catholic church who they call Christendom. It was like bait that they couldn't resist, so that they could say that they are the only religion using "God's name", right? Well, then the Catholic church calls them on it and says that "Jehovah" isn't even accurate. So the Watchtower goes public bickering with them. "We do not say that “Jehovah” is the correct pronunciation of God’s name."

*** w50 12/1 pp. 472-473 An Open Letter to the Catholic Monsignor ***
Thank you for this opportunity to present some facts to you and to the public. We do not say that “Jehovah” is the correct pronunciation of God’s name. For that matter, neither is “Jesus” the correct pronunciation of Christ’s name. But according to the Aramaic language which Christ and his apostles spoke, his name was pronounced “Yeshu′a” (the a representing a gutteral ending). But “Jesus” is only our colloquial way of pronouncing his name, and we do not find fault with you for using it instead of Yeshu′a. However, if you call it shallow scholarship for the Committee to use the word Jehovah in the New World Translation, then you will have to admit that it is due to the shallow scholarship of the Roman Catholic clergy of the thirteenth century, for in that century the word historically appears among them.
Your quotation from the Catholic Biblical Encyclopedia says Jehovah was the incorrect pronunciation given to the Hebrew tetragrammaton JHVH in the 14th century by Porchetus de Salvaticis (1303). But let us say: The origin of the word Jehovah used to be attributed to Petrus Galatinus, a Franciscan friar, the confessor of Pope Leo X, in his De Arcanis Catholicae Veritatis, published in 1518. But the latest scholarship has proved he was not the one to introduce the pronunciation Jehovah, and neither was your aforementioned Porchetus de Salvaticis. As shown by Joseph Voisin, the learned editor of the Pugio Fidei (The Poniard of Faith) by Raymundus Martini, Jehovah had been used long before Galatinus.

Imagine for a moment please that you simply acknowledged that "J" didn't exist until about the same time as the name "Jehovah". The whole world did without "J" until the 1400's.

Instead the letter was "Y". So replace the letter J below with "Y". Also, realize that "V" isn't part of the original four letters of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton. Now ask yourself, is it proving the international acceptance of "Jehovah" because that's his name, or because that's the name that was promoted??? Also, please, understand that if you speak to anyone besides the English when they see a "J" they pronounce it as a "Y" anyway.

Examples: Johan Sebastian Bach? Jose? Jesus? (Hey-zeus)

*** na p. 8 God’s Name—Its Meaning and Pronunciation ***
Forms of the divine name in different languages, indicating international acceptance of the form Jehovah
Awabakal - Yehóa
Bugotu - Jihova
Cantonese - Yehwowah
Danish - Jehova
Dutch - Jehovah
Efik - Jehovah
English - Jehovah
Fijian - Jiova
Finnish - Jehova
French - Jéhovah
Futuna - Ihova
German - Jehova
Hungarian - Jehova
Igbo - Jehova
Italian - Geova
Japanese - Ehoba
Maori - Ihowa
Motu - Iehova
Mwala-Malu - Jihova
Narrinyeri - Jehovah
Nembe - Jihova
Petats - Jihouva
Polish - Jehowa
Portuguese - Jeová
Romanian - Iehova
Samoan - Ieova
Sotho - Jehova
Spanish - Jehová
Swahili - Yehova
Swedish - Jehova
Tahitian - Iehova
Tagalog - Jehova
Tongan - Jihova
Venda - Yehova
Xhosa - uYehova
Yoruba - Jehofah
Zulu - uJehova

*** w68 10/1 p. 580 Who Is God? ***
The vital point is not what pronunciation you use for the Divine Name,... as long as _________________________.

You know I searched the English language. No English word ends in "-vah". Neither is there any word beginning with "Jeh".

I did find one word I didn't know existed, but it's about as English as "Jehovah" is: JEHOVISTIC.

I also just learned this, and oh I didn't realize I would ever figure this out. I knew that the name "Jehovah" is rooted deeply in Medo-Persian false religion, but I couldn't pin point it's origin. And seriously, I just found it. I never occurred to me to search the English dictionary.

Jeh [jey]

noun Zoroastrianism [an Iranian religion, founded c600 b.c. by Zoroaster, the principal beliefs of which are in the existence of asupreme deity, Ahura Mazda, and in a cosmic struggle between a spirit of good, Spenta Mainyu, and aspirit of evil, Angra Mainyu.]

a female demon who was the companion of Angra Mainyu and was believed to have corrupted the female sex: sometimes considered the first woman.

hovah (Hebrew) 1943. ????? ( hovah ) -- a ruin, disaster

Who was Angra Mainyu? Wikipedia says Zoroastrianism's hypostasis [religion] of the "destructive spirit". Jeh, the primal whore who afflicts women with their menstrual cycles: Zoroastrianism's demoness of "lasciviousness." As a hypostatic entity, Jahi is variously interpreted as "hussy," "rake," "libertine," "courtesan" and "one who leads a licentious life." Her standard epithet is "the Whore."

Um, just who is Babylon the Great, the whore, again? Wasn't she a mystery with many names and a God complex?

Assyria conquered Babylon and "She said to herself, "I am, and there is none besides me." What a ruin she has become, a lair for wild beasts! All who pass by her scoff and shake their fists." — Zeph 2:15.

God said: "I AM, and there is no other god besides me." — Deut 32:29

50

Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker in

in society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?

in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.

this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.

nibbled

Promised post here: Who is the Israel of God?

73

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled in

the phrase israel of god appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in christianity.

just who is the israel of god?.

as you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint?

nibbled

The phrase “Israel of God” appears only once in the scriptures, yet it is frequently used in Christianity. Just who is the Israel of God?

As you consider these points, and before responding, will you please test your thinking to ensure first that you are speaking from a scripture only standpoint? With 20 years in the Watchtower, I know what they teach, I hope to have a discussion which is simply scriptures, rather than Watchtower style "reasoning from the scriptures". Yes, we reason from the scriptures, but I don't build my reasoning upon anything but the scriptures. Make sense?

Galatians 6:16

“Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.” — New International Version
“May God’s peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new people of God.” — New Living Translation
“May peace come to all those who follow this standard, and mercy to the Israel of God!” — Holman Christian Standard Bible
“And those who agree to this path shall have peace and affection upon them and upon the Israel of God.” — Aramaic Bible in Plain English

The Amplified Bible reads, “even upon the [true] Israel of God!”

Clearly some translations depict two groups, illustrated by “to all who” and “even to Israel of God” or “all those who—and mercy to the Israel of God” or “upon them and upon the Israel of God” whereas some clearly depict one group as “the new people of God” or “true Israel of God”. While the original Greek clears up the correct rendering, as readers of English we can also rely upon the context of this verse to answer the question at hand—Who are the Israel of God?

What is the rule, principle, standard or path that is being referred to here? The preceding verses explain:

“Those who are trying to force you to be circumcised want to look good to others. They don’t want to be persecuted for teaching that the cross of Christ alone can save. And even those who advocate circumcision don’t keep the whole law themselves. They only want you to be circumcised so they can boast about it and claim you as their disciples… It doesn’t matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.” — Galatians 6:12-15

Paul further explains regarding the path of circumcision and slavery to the law:

“Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ will be of no benefit to you. I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses. For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.” —Galatians 5:2-4

How did Paul feel about those who were trying to convert the Christians into Jews by circumcision?

“I wish those troublemakers would castrate themselves.” — Galatians 5:12

It was thus that Paul concludes that ”May peace come to all those [uncircumcised] who follow this standard, and mercy to the [circumcised] Israel of God!”

What mercy? Paul explained to the Romans the mercy that will be shown to the people of Israel, for God’s gifts and call can never be withdrawn:

“Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead. Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will sharek in God’s mercy. For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.” — Romans 11:28-32

Do you belong to the Israel of God or the New Creation?

Christians are called to be a new creation. The Israel of God is not a new creation, they are God’s chosen people of the old covenant, and we are called by Christ as chosen people of a new covenant, a new creation where “it doesn’t matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised”. (Colossians 3:11)

As for those that teach that Christians are the “Israel of God” on the basis of this one verse taken out of context, I recall the words of Paul:

“I wish those troublemakers would castrate themselves.”

50

Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker in

in society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?

in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.

this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.

nibbled

Okay, sorry guys. I get it now, the quote mark is block quote and the "Styles" has the quote someone else. Please make note of the blockquotes meant to be quoting another post. They are what I respond to, and are not my thoughts!

Band on the Run I'm one of those new here people. And I am interested in picking your Columbian brain.

When I posted above (with the messed up quotes) I had not yet read all the posts below, but was responding to AGuest's response to me. I mention how I like the whole book, called the bible (biblios, named for the goddess Byblos the Greek name for the place that the papyrus came from; bible basically means book, but with a very interesting etymology), as you do too.

I have no idea what level of understanding people are at here. It takes time to discern who is deeply embedded in doctrine, or how far others might be along in knowing all the truth, or how fast others are losing their faith as "they lose their religion" (REM) .

I also understand it takes a lot to crack off that scullcap of doctrine we were taught. Nearly every verse I'll speak up about are ones that matter to me because I was taught one thing but learned by reading the Word that it meant another. And it's unfortunately one premise based on another after another, so it's a very tangled web to learn who the Truth is, and to follow his voice. It's hard to go from being "in the truth" to following the Truth.

I found it easier than I now realize others have it. I spent nearly 10 years apart from "the truth" before finding myself in a kingdom hall, and finding myself reinstated, only to say that while I was listening I heard everything they said in the course of that time, and I came to realize that it was all wrong.

It was mere weeks after being resintated that I stopped going to the meetings. I started reading the scriptures (the "bible") straight through using the paraphrase translated from original language version The Message. I joke that it's like reading the "novel" version of the scriptures. It was like "reading a book", instead of "reading the bible". In doing so I often stopped and cross referenced other translations, including the NWT—"Is that really what it says? Does it say that in the NWT too?"

I came to believe everything I read.

Thankfully, early on I stopped trying to research everything and simply read the story. I had a 90 day plan on YouVersion, so I had to read.

And in reading it read like a story, and I was able to understand that story.

Now I am here because I want to talk about it.

I find Revelation finishs where Genesis left off. I find that Paul's letters were the Christian letters, whereas the "old testament" + the "gospels" were for Israel, Acts is a transition between the "Jewish" system of things, to the Christian system of things. Paul's letters were to the Christians, and the other apostles wrote to the Hebrews scattered or dispersed. Their letters specifically are addressed.

It was like watching a movie play out, and I cared about the characters. If 70 people went into Egypt and millions came out (600,000 military age men + women, children, and elderly) then how many more people were in the 12 tribes centuries later? I kept waiting for the Israelites (of the ten tribes) to come back—Hosea tells the story, but they never did.

Well, unless you realize that there's a pause button in the stories of the prophets. There was a pause that I've come to learn others call "the sacred interval" or the time for the fullness of the nations, or the full number to come in before the "partial hardening" is lifted.

After the full number come in then the story picks up with Revelation.

Pauls letters are to a different group of people. There was one hope for the united nation of Israel (later northern Israel and southern Judah). They all, as the Jews believe today, believe that they will inherit the promised land. And David said that the meek would inherit the earth. While that was the one hope of the old covenant, there were people along the way who were anointed by God. (Hebrews 11 seems to be a list.)

The new covenant however is for the new creation, the body of Christ, the Christians. We're a new creation, not grafted into an old nation, old religion, old covenant, nothing. People butcher the brilliant and inspired words of Paul to claim to be "spiritual Jews" or "grafted into Israel" or that they are the "Israel of God". Drives me nuts. It was so nice when I read Paul's books just as is, before coming back to reality and remembering the difference between what he says in context (of the whole scriptures) and what Christendom teaches it means.

I guess, I mean to say stay tuned. I'll start a new thread. I've written so much as if I sit in a classroom by myself. I don't hear, literally, the voice of Christ the Messiah. But I do believe that I am listening to his voice by trusting that he is the Word of God, that he came in flesh, and the word of God is the Word of God. Funny thing all those capital letters. I to believe that God sent the spirit of his son into my heart, and when I was in the period of time where I could not call on the name of "Jehovah" but had not yet come to learn his name (at least the only one that I know of that is accountable to the scriptures, and that I came to discover on my own only to find out I wasn't the only one...) I called on "my Father". Abba, Father.

Things just clicked and there's just no way I did this on my own. 20 years of feeling like an idiot because I couldn't do anything but parrot the Watchtower, and suddenly in a year in a half I understand the story straight through? I don't mean that I "know" it all. I'm so thankful that there is so much to learn, like digging for hid treasure. Just because I found treasure doesn't mean I'm going to stop digging as if there isn't much more.

Okay, I'll post a new thread. I hope that you, Band and others, like AGuest, will be responsive. I've been looking for people who care about the words of "the word" (etymology, original languages, etc) as well as the larger context which must be considered (social structures, culture, etc).

50

Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker in

in society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?

in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.

this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.

nibbled

The New Song "They sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, but no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth." — Rev 14:3
The Song of Moses "Those who had won the victory over the beast, his image,e and the number of his name, were standing on the sea of glass with harps from God.
They sang the song of God’s servant Mosesh and the song of the Lamb:
Great and awe-inspiring are Your works,
Lord God, the Almighty;
righteous and truei are Your ways,
King of the Nations.
Lord, who will not fear
and glorify Your name?
Because You alone are holy,
for all the nations will come
and worship before Youm
because Your righteous acts
have been revealed." — Rev 15:3,4

Okay, here's trying to be clear, because I'm still not certain we're talking about the same things here.

AGuest, I do not believe that the song mentioned at Rev 14:3 is the same some as mentioned at Rev 15:3. One is the "new song" and the other is the "song of Moses", and I believe that they are different, distinct and song by two different groups of singers. The "new song" is sung by the 144,000 only. The "song of Moses" is sung by "those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name." I don't know about you... but whether or not I'd ever be one of the 144,000 I do intend to be one who is victorious over the beast, his image and mark of his name: 666. This group is much larger than just 144,000, it includes them and the great multitude (crowd).

Revelation 19:1-9 shows the great multitude (crowd) singing, celebrating the fall of Babylon and the Lamb's bride. Then the angel concludes by telling John that those invited to the marriage feast are blessed— I know that the Watchtower teaches that the great multitude is not in heaven, and this multitude is angels, but... Why would angels be celebrating human salvation? And who is invited to the wedding feast? Obviously it's an invitition of humans, and the bride is obviously the 144,000, thus... (I'm just being clear, for the discussions sake, and because I don't know who has come to understand what.)

When the 144,000 sing it, THEY are singing it new for THEM... but it is not a new song. They are SINGING it... as IF it were a new song.

I don't get riled up in words that are only in certain translations but not in the original language. I also steer clear from removing or adding words, especially to Revelation which comes with a hefty warning about what happens to those who do that (even if—Band—it was to keep the original circulation from being corrupted and is just John's warning as a writer and not Christ's inspired intent for all generations to follow...).

Thus, I'd like to point out that reading the two verses together, and using the interlinear there is clarity there that's missing in most translations yet it is simple in the original language and doesn't require us to say "the new song" "is not a new song", and to resort to adding "if" where there isn't an "if" and a lot of reasoning, where none is required:

And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and as they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. — Revelation 14:2,3

It sounded like "a voice like harpists playing harps and as singing a new song".

The 144,000 are "solely from among the sons of Israel".

I believe the 144,000 are, as the scriptures explicitly say, from the children of the twelve tribes of Israel, so it is wholly not simply soley Israel. And I don't insert any "spiritual" before Israel, it's Israel. The foretold remnant of actual descendants of Israel.

And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given to them and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony (martyardom/witness) of Jesus and on account of the word of God, and those who did not the beast nor the image of him, and did not take the mark upon the forehead and upon their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. — Revelation 20:4, Interlinear

I typed the above from the literal word-for-word from the Interlinear. Why? Because it makes clear there are two groups. Those who were the first resurrection, and those who victorious over the beast, and they all lived and reigned with Christ.

Subtle distinctions.

This is seeing all who are in heaven—the assembly of Christ (literally, of anointed Christians) which a man and his wife become one flesh, the bride of the Lamb and the body of Christ become one assembly or household. They all reign with Christ.

Proof? Remember the new song at the outset of Revelation sung by the 24 elders, and the four living beings? (with a chorus sung by millions of angels)

And they sang a new song with these words:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and break its seals and open it.
For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
And you have caused them to become
a Kingdom of priests for our God.
And they will reign on the earth.” — Revelation 5:9,10

This is a new song about the people of Revelation 20:4,5, who are not just the 144,000 but are the 144,000 and the great multitude.

Before I leave this portion of the post, I want to make clear:

There are at least two new songs in Revelation, but all the new songs are not the same new song
The new song sung by the 144,000 is new, and is sung by them only
The song of Moses is not the same song as the new song of the 144,000
Israel once learned and sang the song of Moses, and it will be sang again by the assembly in heaven—but it is not the new song
The new songs sung in heaven are noted as being new because of the content of the song and the events which surround their being sung

AGuest, there is a beautiful tradition I wonder if you know about. Once you know the tradition you can search to see if what I say is true. The wedding tradition of the people of Palastine in ancient times, as are often practiced even today, included a few key events which are familar to us in another manner.

A bride is selected from his people, by the father, a family member or trusted friend for the groom
The bridegroom goes to the home of the bride with wine to negotiate and pay a bride price
The bride, if she accepts the proposal and agrees to the price settled upon by her father and the bride groom symbolizes her acceptance by drinking from the same cup of wine as her bridegroom.
The bridegroom goes back to his Father's home to prepare a place for their marriage, called a chuppah, and generally waits a year.
The bridegroom is seen by neighbors and is, as part of the tradition, when the wedding will be— he will answer "nobody knows but my father", because the father is the one who says when the chuppah is ready, although it's standard for a virgin that it's is about a year's time.
When the father says to the son that it's time, then the son proceeds to return to the house of the bride...
It is the middle of the night, he because the ceremony of "wedding" is to steal the bride away to his father's house
So that he is not mistaken for a thief in the night, he or his friend, call out in the night as they approach the home.
The bride hurries out prepared to meet him (she has things that she does during the year too, mainly cleansing and preparing to be a wife)
The procession includes lamps and on the return to the Father's home many come out to join them in joyous procession

There's more detail, step-by-step with durations of what happens upon return, the marriage feast, the chuppah, when the veil is lifted (revealing the bride), etc.

The point is, the bride, and we can open a new thread for this — please do and I'll share all that I know! there is much and its such a rich story! — drinks from the same cup as the bridegroom to accept his proposal. Christ paid for his bride with his life, and we know the cup he had to drink. He even asked if his apostles could drink from the same cup, then realizing that they would.

The 144,000 all die, despite what it is that the Watchtower teaches. They teach that they don't because they need to explain how it is that there are people who go to heaven transformed but not dead, because they teach ONLY the 144k go to heaven. It's much much simplier to believe simply what the Word says.

It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.
We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

The bride rises first to meet her bridegroom, then the virgins and those invited to the marriage feast join the procession.

There is no one who replaces unfaithful Israel. Hosea tells the torrid story of her affairs, her children, her being sent away and losing her name. Yet, Hosea 2 reminds us our Father said of his Israel, "I will betroth you to me forever". All of Hosea confirms that he will restore her, wooing her.

Romans 11:1: "Has God rejected his people? God forbid!"

Christendom (which includes all religions of Christianity, including the Watchtower) has done violence to the Word of God.

Paul explained much to the congregations which shed light on the great sacred secret revealed to him of the body of Christ. They, knowing the old covenant, the new covenant, and the culture and keeping true to the intent of the scriptures, accepted what he said because he didn't change what the scriptures said, but added a depth of meaning not yet realized or previously revealed.

This is fascinating stuff. I study the scriptures like Band on the Run, Revelation is favorite of mine, but I actually more than anything love the whole canon as one book, we call the bible. I mean that I don't take a "chapter" (one book) as it were, but I now examine as the entire book—the "bible"—which is why I refer to it as a story, because it's one story.

I need to get to work, so I have to close here and pick up when I get on my commute. I will leave you with this.

I to learn all truth from the spirit of truth which teaches us. However, all the truth and nothing happens without being revealed in the scriptures. So I am curious how you know all about the how Revelation was written and why, so I can study it because it's not there and it changes how we would view that book of prophecy (if we accept what you said). My teacher will not allow me to believe what is not the Word of God.

I refer to Messias the Christos as Y'shua, which is a short form of Yehowah 'is' Shua, meaning "Yehowah is Salvation". I will alternately use the other forms of his name, Yeshua or Yehoshua; I often just use Y'shua. Yah as used by David in his songs, or Halleluyah, the only form of YHWH which appears in Revelation or in any original Greek manuscripts (as opposed to Hebrew translations of the Greek) is an important part of my worship as well.

J and Jehovah

I do not use "J" because J simply didn't exist until recent history. It is ignorance and I whince each time people use it.

I do not use Jehovah, why? Read about Babylon's Jeh (the Zoroastrian demoness of lust, better known in Babylon as "the whore", consort to the "destructive spirit"). Then read about the Hebrews Hovah (ruin and disaster, occurs three times in the scriptures, referring to... guess who?).

The Watchtower in their arrogance say that if they were to use the Hebrew name of God then we'd have to use the Hebrew name of his son (Jesus is the Latin form of the Greek name of his Hebrew name.)

Well, more so than consistency is simply for me the meaning of the proper use of the names— Yehowah (YHWH) and all the theophoric names which were passed down generation to generation which tell us how to pronounce it, and all the data points in the scriptures which that pronuciation uphold about what we know of the name of YHWH, and that he gave his name to his son, and it was above any other name given: Yehowah is Salvation.

Sorry AGuest, remember, I wasn't looking for a mommy. Though I do love you and mean it!

Oh, and since you said "probably seen as YHWH", please look into the history of the letter J. It was simply a decorative "I".

AGuest are you "Shelby"? Someone used that name earlier but wasn't sure if that was referring to you? I am very much looking forward to talking with you! Sounds like we have much to share together!

31

Music you never noticed was ...

by nibbled in

jw
friends

i have friends in very cool jobs.

my world interacts quite often with music stars, and i have interesting conversations.

for instance, i was talking with the members of animal kingdom, and asked the lead singer about the lyrics i picked up while listening them perform for the group a few minutes earlier... i felt stupid because i hadn't realized the name of the song, and only had caught a few lyrics... he wrote of mephistopheles.

nibbled

I have friends in very cool jobs. My world interacts quite often with music stars, and I have interesting conversations.

For instance, I was talking with the members of Animal Kingdom, and asked the lead singer about the lyrics I picked up while listening them perform for the group a few minutes earlier... I felt stupid because I hadn't realized the name of the song, and only had caught a few lyrics... he wrote of Mephistopheles. I was distracted during the performance, and it was standing before him that I realized that he could see I had recognized his "All Along the Watchtower" intent, but hadn't heard the keyword of who he summoned, "So, Music Mephistopheles I summon you to sing for me". (Look it up; I'm not gonna link it, read first who/what Mephisto is before you groove, please!)

A few months ago I was listening to a band I saw perform recently at a major music festival in Austin, Texas, called Mumford and Sons. I was walking in the park and though I'd gotten to see them sidestage, I hadn't really heard the lyrics, the same as being up close and personal with Animal Kingdom and missing the point. Have you listened to Babel? Or Sigh No More? Can you hear what he's singing...?

Then finally I felt like there was something going on and I was the last to know. New albums drop on Tuesdays, and I was the first to listen to a new album that particular Tuesday, and while it played I jumped in the shower. I had just hoped from something relaxing, it seems I'd been so sensitive lately to the lyrics or intent of music and I just wanted something to play while I enjoyed my shower and bubbles. You guys sing in the shower, right?

Well, I found myself cold, I was stunned. Standing before my Bose setup not beliving what I was hearing. I had sort of, well, not even, but just said in my head, maybe a prayer?, no, just said in my head, before getting in the shower... I just wished there was something good to listen to.

And here I was listening to this new release that days later was top of the rotation for all my friends in and related to the music and design industry.

So I emailed the guy. A Boy and His Kite. I asked him if he was aware of this whole Christian music masquerading as popular music thing? Well, sort of. I basically was able to express my shock.

Here's another popular but more indie band among my friends. City and Colour.

So its strange that it was popular music among my friends who believe that religion is a mental disease (I believe in God not religion, but know I would be less respected for it) that led me here.

I have a thousand plus Facebook friends, and friends who influence the music industry—and I am just dying to ask, do you know what you're listening to?

I didn't. I've heard these albums again and again, and then one day I could hear.

Is this old news? Is there something going on here? Another masquerading as innocent but bleeding light for those in the know, Avett Brothers.

I started a playlist on my music service to add all these albums—I can't call them "Christian" as a genre, they aren't so labeled and besides we'd never know any of that music anyway... but I'm thinking this is new. You guys noticed it too? The playlist is was too full a week later. I still wonder and am working up the nerve to ask my friends, do you know what you're listening to? Do you not care what he sings about, what he believes, even though you wouldn't respect me the same if you knew I believed the same as he...? (Ok. So I rhymed. I'm a dork.)

33

A keyboard confessional...

by nibbled in

you guys don't know me, i'm new here.

i'm typing on an iphone (pardon any random weird iphone auto-spell corrections) and could walk home to get to my laptop but i might lose the courage to post what comes to my heart to share right now.

worse and more likely, i'll simply not be able to express what i felt right now... if i wait until i have a proper keyboard.

nibbled

I got home and wanted to update my Gravatar so there's something of who I am. Wowza, there were nearly 20 views already and no responses. I'm putting myself to bed, I can't handle the suspense.

It's like being naked and judged. Momma always said always wear clean underwear in case you end up in an accident...

[Please break the silence before I wake up? Tell me anything as long as it's the truth!]

I headed on to Gravatar to update the photo so there's something of me. First post I made here I submitted the entry to find my face smiling back at me. Never had quite a feeling as that. I have no idea how to figure out what [email protected] I used when I signed up... any ideas on how to figure that out? Should I start a new account so I can have a face here?

144

WTF? Tried Jehovahs Witnesses to delete Raymond from Wikipeda a couple minutes ago?

by Dold Agenda in

jw
friends

i was just googling jehovas and this appears in the list at wikipedia abou raymond franz.. *theinformationon this page was removed by responsible members of the legal coorporation of jehovah's witnesses,watchtower bible and tract society of new york,inc for the sole purpose that this page spread false information about a former member of jehovah's witnesses.the authors of the page are liable and did not remain neutral with regards to the information presented.we request you write a written apology to us..

wtf!?.

apperently that didint work out.. (cur | prev)17:32, 29 january 2013 titodutta(talk | contribs) m.

nibbled

And the Truth will set you free!

BTTT