Posts by David

50

Does the governing body know what they are doing?

by Gefangene in

what do you guys think?.

are they only some uber religious zealots or do they pursue hidden agendas beyond religiosity?.

David_Jay

I have to agree with LisaRose.

All people, including each of us, have an instinct that keeps us from second-guessing ourselves. We learn from an early age that fire is hot, gravity will pull us down, eat too much food--even if we like it--will make us sick, etc. Once we establish basic fundamentals we don't second guess these things. We even build on them. Later if someone tries to get us to touch fire, or the equivalent, we won't believe them.

Normally this works out fine. But it can go astray with personal convictions. They don't have to be religious either (take Marxism and Nazism for example). Once we accept something as true and believe we are right, we get entrenched and invested in the idea. Someone comes along and tries to tell us different, we will refuse to believe.

We can all remember some time other than being a JW when we may have stubbornly refused to admit we were wrong. We may have even balked against the best evidence and sat in denial in these cases. Eventually we came around, but it was hard to admit we were wrong, no?

Now remember how convinced we were as Witnesses. What would that have looked like if you had more invested in it than you did? Would any of us have left as comparatively easily as we did?

Now think of the present Governing Body, how far beyond the original plans, hopes, and beliefs they have taken all this. Good grief, it is 2016! Jesus originally "returned" in 1874 and it was supposed to be over in 1914, and it is now far beyond that. Even with the revised "before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away," that generation basically perished. The original Governing Body is gone. None of them are around. Franz is long dead. They are asking for money in a televangelist format, sold DUMBO, and have a Bible and Tract Society that virtually does not produce printed materials anymore. And on top of that, "overlapping generations"? Overlapping generations, people! What the f#*k?!

Deluding themselves is all they can do now. To think you are leading people astray and that God isn't responsible for making you think up such silly fodder--what is the alternative? Can these humans survive if they suddenly woke up to the reality that they are teaching millions of people stupid things that have no basis in reality? They aren't even good religious beliefs, as far as religion goes. Can the psyche even deal with such crushing acceptance of how wrong and off course you are if you are a GB member who suddenly snapped into realizing the real truth of it all?

20

Lurking JWs: Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?

by Island Man in

watchtower puts forth the argument that you can't really know god unless you know and use the appellation "jehovah" or its equivalent in other languages.

is this really true?

i say it's not true and i will demonstrate to you why.. god's name is not a mere label that we have to use to communicate with him so that he knows we're talking to him.

David_Jay

It is a pagan or heathen custom to address a divinity by their name. Judaism was unique among the ancients not only in introducing a single deity without an image, but to create a religious system in which the less something was used, the holier it was considered.

This went for addressing the Hebrew God by name. By the time Second Temple Judaism was at its pinnacle, Jesus of Nazareth passed on the same tradition to his followers, saying: "When you pray, do not go on babbling endlessly as the pagans (Gentiles) who think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need even before you ask him."--Matthew 6:7-8.

Gentile religious systems often had the curious belief that required petitions to be offered uttering the proper name and/or titles of a deity lest the prayer go unanswered. Some pagans believed that a deity would not focus their attention on people unless they were addressed by name and that the name was properly pronounced, even if it was in a language uncommon to the worshiper. Long lists of divine names and possible pronunciations had been devised by some in the hope that uttering the list of names would force a response from the pagan god. The repetitions sounded like babbling, which is the word that appears in Matthew 6:7 that gets rendered by some as merely "repeating the same words," which is not the same thing.

Jesus said that such endless babbling of names was not necessary to get God's attention because it was always focused on his creation, so much so that God "knows what you need even before you ask him." Making sure you uttered God's name, pronounced it correctly or used it enough times in a prayer was not necessary.

Holy things in Judaism were generally placed out of sight and used rarely, if at all, by Jews. Hence the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle and later the Temple was never seen or used by most Jews, even though it was at their center of life. The items within, such as the Ark of the Covenant, and the items in the Ark itself, were not only unseen by most but forbidden to be touched. It is of interest that items associated with God were treated this way in Scripture as far back as the forbidden fruit of Genesis. Though it was constantly present, it was neither to be eaten or even touched. (Genesis 3:3) Most outstanding was the Sabbath, a whole day which because it was holy was not to be used.

For this reason, the Jews to this day rarely utter the Divine Name, if at all. It is their custom to use holy things rarely unlike mundane things which get used frequently, often for various purposes.

It should be added that Jesus followed his instruction on not praying like the pagans with a petition calling for the sanctification or hallowing of God's name, substituting "Father" instead of pronouncing YHWH. (Matthew 6:9) The repetitious use of a deity's name was the opposite of what it meant to treat God's name as holy.

While the name of God is indeed written thousands of times in Scripture, just because something is there all the time doesn't mean one should use it as one uses other more common things, at least for the non-pagan Jews. Again the Ark stood there constantly, the tablets upon which the Ten Commandments were written were inside, the fruit of God's tree in Eden had fruit that could be used as food, and every Sabbath was a day just waiting to be used.

But unlike pagans and worshippers of demons, God's people don't use holy things as one would use a mundane thing, even when it comes to names.

19

Critical Thinking-is that phrase a stigma?

by PaintedToeNail in

jw
friends

when i first heard the term 'critical thinking' it was as a teenager during a watchtower study.

the study went on to elaborate how we shouldn't be swayed by critical thinking.

there was no explanation that the term didn't mean 'to criticize' thoughts and words, but rather that it means 'to objective think and to evaluate thoughts and words'.

David_Jay

The word "critical" comes from its use in ancient Greek and Roman society.

It comes from the Greek word KRITIKOS which means "one who determines the value" of something as in judging the quality of things.

The etymology of the word in modern everyday (vernacular) English comes from the fact that someone who is judgmental or makes a lot of judgments about things came to be called a "critic" because they were acting like a valid judge, but we're not. The term "critic" was therefore applied as a bit of an irony, and the word "critical" followed suit in the vernacular.

But it has never meant this originally, not in academia, in the field of higher learning, or even among the modestly educated. Being that KRITIKOS has been used since the time of the great Greek thinkers, its original meaning has never been lost nor could it be replaced.

In American and British usage, in fact, the main meaning of "critical" means "to hold the value or status of being important." Thus getting news to someone else can be called "critical," and the need for medical attention can place a patient in "critical care." One who uses their abilities to determine what is important from what is not is using "critical thinking." Critical analysis of Scripture was first introduced in the 1700s, and has become a mainstay in both Judaism and Christianity ever since. Without critical approaches producing modern translations of the Bible and study aids would be impossible.

You can tell how far from intelligent the Watchtower is by "warning" people about using "critical" methods, therefore. To stick to only the vernacular, secondary meaning tells a lot about what is lacking among the Governing Body.

61

Demon possesion, bunch of crap or?

by raven in

i've been using the forum to vent and post a lot more frequently lately as a venting purpose & way to obtain peace of mind with the craziness i've been going through recently as i fade away form the org.

anyways today i'm sitting here at work and thinking to myself about demons... ok i know this sounds crazy but has anyone else out there been traumatized by the thought of demons?

i had a dream the other night, just flat out spooky and i woke and couldn't help but feeling it may have been evil ole' satan and his demons at it again.. i don't want to believe that, (trying not to, & just brushing it under the rug so to speak) but have any of you out there been talked up about demons?

David_Jay

One of my best friends is a Catholic priest. He just retired a few days ago, but prior to this he worked at the diocesan pastoral center for his archdiocese. Though his work there was focused on annulments, he did discuss several times about their church's process on exorcism and demons and ghosts, etc.

To make this short, exorcisms in the Catholic Church are rarely performed for "demon possession." They more often take place to sanctify something or someone, dedicating the person, place or thing to the service of God.

Demon possession, according to the Church, is extremely rare. Most cases can be explained away to medical problems, pychological disorders, lucid dreaming, anxiety, even plain ole attention getting and/or lying.

When the very rare "demon possession" case has occurred, exorcism for the person occurred only after all medical and scientific avenues have been exhausted, and do not mean that a medical or scientific explanation still doesn't exist or cannot explain the situation far better than attack by evil spirits. It can often be the last recourse in a series of last recourses.

Those extremely rare situations, like the famous case in the 1940s of the alleged possessed Lutheran boy that inspired the film "The Exorcist," with eyewitness testimony of disinterested parties experiencing what some may call horrific paranormal experiences, are far different from the experiences described or defined in Watchtower terms. If there is something genuine to these or any other situations, it would surely be far different from what JW theology speaks of.

In my experience there is nothing real that some people will refuse to accept as true, even in the face of evidence, and nothing so false and lacking so much evidence that others will not readily accept as true, even die for, even though there is no support for their credulity.

30

May 21, 2016 TO ALL CONGREGATIONS Re: Annual Items for 2017

by wifibandit in

may 21, 2016 to all congregations re: annual items for 2017.

David_Jay

One more thing, with Russian Witnesses facing liquidation, with lawsuits from child abuse cases, the cost of finishing new headquarters and daily operating costs, how long do you think the money from selling DUMBO and other properties will last?

Where will the funds come from once the money from the sales dry up? The current Witnesses, a group of people who are mostly blue collar workers? From poor countries like Mexico or war torn provinces in Africa or from Witnesses in South America? Witness don't tithe, and if they did, where would JWs get the money? Their part-time, no-college-education jobs?

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was their money. Remember, the original pioneers were called "colporteurs," a word which refers to an employee of a Bible society, a Bible seller.

No more books, no more Bible and Tract Society. No more Bible and Tract Society, no more money.

Who will give them the money then? Jehovah? He hasn't so far. He didn't keep them from having to ask for it on the new streaming TV show.

30

May 21, 2016 TO ALL CONGREGATIONS Re: Annual Items for 2017

by wifibandit in

may 21, 2016 to all congregations re: annual items for 2017.

David_Jay

I can understand how I might not find agreement with others, and I totally respect that.

But I promise you, if I had suggested back in the 1970s or around 1985 when we who were in "the Society," as we called it back then, would see a day when our very own Bible society would stop producing printed materials or to merely suggest that it might happen would have been a quick path to disfellowshipping.

Revelation 9:10 was viewed as a prophecy that was interpreted how we would leave our literature behind with "stinging" messages. And the trumpet blasts and woes of Revelation were directly tied to the printing of specific books and publications that were printed. The blue "Truth" book, being described in the Guiness World Book of records as one of the most highly printed and allegedly distributed books in history was considered a proof that Jehovah God was behind the work. We even used to say that more people had a "Truth" book than owned a copy of Gone With the Wind! Better the Bible be false than we ever stop producing God's life saving message!

I was there when the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society held its 100th anniversary (and the speaker there announced, "We will never hold another 100 years anniversary" to a crowd that laughed and cheered in applause because we knew back then that we were so close to the end back in the 1980s.) It was all about printing actual books back then becuase, well, that's what Bible societies do. They are printing houses.

What is this I hear? No calendar? Have people use e-books and don't order bound volumes? When I was "in the Truth," not ordering and owning bound volumes was a sign that you were not a diligent student of God's Word, that you were spiritually weak and sickly. We even had reminders that taught us the importance of ordering our bound volumes. Even when the first CD ROM WT library came out and we had the NWT (on floppy disks that we had to load onto out hard drives), we were told not to use the computer over the printed publications or substitute looking up Scriptures with a PC for direct handling of a printed Bible.

We used to hold assemblies in a complex that would also hold the Worldwide Church of God's assemblies simultaneously. I was a JW when Armstrong died. Jesus was supposed to return before his death and their concept of an earthly paradise "World Tomorrow" was supposed to come before their leader passed away. I was there watching them assemble even after his death, as they stayed strong at first--and extremely cash rich--and then suddenly it was gone. Millions upon millions, instantly, dried up. And the WCG flock scattered and dwindled.

The writing is always on the wall before the empire falls, always. No more printing is a symptom that something obviously is very, very wrong. A Bible and tract society prints literature, like the United Bible Societies do. Just grinding out electronic information in a world that still uses printed books, especially when it comes to religion, is a death knoll. Bible societies older than the Watchtower still exist and print more than ever today.

Regardless of how much money they got on hand, it obviously isn't enough. Their Bible society is now a ghost. A publishing house that doesn't print books isn't a publishing house.

It looked just like this for the WCG right after Armstrong died. Cash still was coming in, their Ambassador College was still cranking away. Then when their brains caught up with the reality that their promised paradise earth, their "World Tomorrow" really had not come before Armstrong died, it was over like a lightning bolt's flash.

Yep, the Euphrates has run dry. But it turns out that Babylon is not Christendom. The river no longer providing is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. The presses are halting, the books are practically nonexistent. That society was their lifeline. Once rivers dry up, thirst and famine set in.

Doubt what I say, but from where I stood over three decades ago, this is a dried skeleton beyond raising. Turn off the lights, the party is over!

30

May 21, 2016 TO ALL CONGREGATIONS Re: Annual Items for 2017

by wifibandit in

may 21, 2016 to all congregations re: annual items for 2017.

David_Jay

This means, in my book, that we are witnessing the end of the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses. And I have never really believed I would see or say such a thing.

E-book sales and use have declined. They haven't gone away, they are not going anywhere, but they also were never the death knoll some predicted they were going to be for the printed word.

Religious book sales have soared, especially Bible study editions. The Catholic world market has boomed, for example, with non-Catholic publishing houses (like the evangelical Tyndale) developing officially approved new Bible translations for this previously untapped market. Their New Living Translation has just been expanded in a Catholic edition and received an imprimatur, now released in India and to be released in the USA in April of 2017. Five major new Bible translations in English alone, and a plethora of study materials have been released for Catholics since 2001. The main sales are in print, and the Catholic NABRE (the official US text) is a best seller in various editions since its 2011 release.

Judaism too, especially Reform, is experiencing a publishing and sales bloom. And nothing is decreasing in hard copy publishing in the rest of the religious world. The United Bible societies are printing more and more hard copy books, Bibles and tracts in a multitude of languages, with numbers and demand still up and growing.

Oh, and paper calendar sales are still healthy.

The JWs aren't printing becuase they can't do it anymore. It's not because e-books are the wave of the future. Religious people still prefer books and scrolls, hymnals, missals, and tracts that have been printed and can be touched and felt.

Despte selling property, despite anything else they say, they are printing less because it is over. This is just denial now for those left behind.

It's over. Not tomorrow. Not next week. Not next year. It's over now.

Those who are left are ghosts. The Watchtower is now going the way of the Worldwide Church of God. It will take a little more time like it did in the WCG after Armstrong did, but the flock of folly will soon scatter.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has fallen! A Bible and tract society that doesn't print anything is dead. It's death is a symptom of the dead body that clings to it.

42

Did Jesus really suffer? Really?

by purrpurr in

jw
friends

so over the course of three days he had a trial which doesn't seem to have bothered him much.

he got whipped ok that would have been agony and then put on a torture stake/ cross/ whatever yes that would have been hell.

but he was on it for a day and the whole thing lasted for three days.

David_Jay

You just can't stand to be wrong, can you? Am I so powerful and my words so important that you have to keep fighting? Look at how I can control you! I can keep you going on and on, can't I?

42

Did Jesus really suffer? Really?

by purrpurr in

jw
friends

so over the course of three days he had a trial which doesn't seem to have bothered him much.

he got whipped ok that would have been agony and then put on a torture stake/ cross/ whatever yes that would have been hell.

but he was on it for a day and the whole thing lasted for three days.

David_Jay

Yes, "healed." Ransoms don't heal people. They get paid to get those held captive free.

God didn't demand a ransom of any kind, becuase sin was holding humanity hostage. By healing people through what Christ sacrificed, people are offered a share in the divine life. That is the Gospel.

You are arguing with me to defend a view you reject. The you don't want to admit that the view you reject is wrong or that there is anything like divinization being a historical doctrine, because that will mean you rejected the wrong thing.

If you reject something that was never the belief in the first place, your current convictions might be wrong and need to be changed. And the thought of that moves you to keep arguing and debating.

If there is no God, then what you are defending is wrong anyway. Why are you defending something that is irrelevant? Is it not all nonsense anyway?

42

Did Jesus really suffer? Really?

by purrpurr in

jw
friends

so over the course of three days he had a trial which doesn't seem to have bothered him much.

he got whipped ok that would have been agony and then put on a torture stake/ cross/ whatever yes that would have been hell.

but he was on it for a day and the whole thing lasted for three days.

David_Jay

You are just arguing with me because you are proud. I thought you were atheist. Why would an atheist argue in favor of any type of theology or interpretation? If there is no God, then all the interpretations are wrong, including what you wrote.

And yes, I read it a while back, not recently however.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay