Posts by David

61

Would human settlement of Mars invalidate Bible prophecy?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

i don't think this topic has been discussed before but yesterday i read something to the effect that trump wants a human mission to mars to be completed within his presidency.. with that being said, the watchtower teaches that what started on earth ends on earth, in other words, the fall of adam and eve would end with the passing of the 1,000 year millennial reign when christ destroys all his enemies, rebellious "perfect" humans, and the devil and his demons who are let out the abyss for a short while.

he then hands the kingdom back to his father.

an elder in my old congregation once told us during a public talk that he was an ardent astronomer but then referenced the scripture where it says, "the earth he has given to the sons of men" (psalms 115:16).

David_Jay

Well, isn't the question about whether colonizing Mars an invalidation of so-called "Bible prophecy" the subject at hand? There would have to be such a thing as Bible prophecy in the first place, no? If one can prove that there is no such thing, isn't that still part of the same subject? That was what I was doing (if you followed along from the beginning).

Only Christians like the JWs believe in such things as the Bible foretelling and mapping out the future of the earth. It isn't taking the OP off topic if one proves that there is no such thing to begin with.

What may be the problem is that there are some people I've met that want the JW concept of "Bible prophecy" to be real, as if the Jews really intended such a thing. But when you offer critical analytical data from Judaism to show that such a concept is of Gentile origin, that makes some people uncomfortable. Some people need the "Bible prophecy" concept to exist as an intention from us Jews in order to have something to "prove" their current convictions about how wrong "Bible prophecy" is.

There is no such thing as the Gentile concept of "Bible prophecy," ergo colonizing Mars doesn't invalidate something that doesn't exist. Christians made up the concept of a "march of nations" and a foretelling of the earth's eternal future being in Scripture.

At least for our Jewish Scripture, it has no such "prophecy," which is what I was pointing out. And someone raised points about establishing this, so I answered.

The OP raised a question about a concept that is moot because there is no such thing as "Bible prophecy." Colonizing Mars can't invalidate something only Fundies and JWs say is real.

61

Would human settlement of Mars invalidate Bible prophecy?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

i don't think this topic has been discussed before but yesterday i read something to the effect that trump wants a human mission to mars to be completed within his presidency.. with that being said, the watchtower teaches that what started on earth ends on earth, in other words, the fall of adam and eve would end with the passing of the 1,000 year millennial reign when christ destroys all his enemies, rebellious "perfect" humans, and the devil and his demons who are let out the abyss for a short while.

he then hands the kingdom back to his father.

an elder in my old congregation once told us during a public talk that he was an ardent astronomer but then referenced the scripture where it says, "the earth he has given to the sons of men" (psalms 115:16).

David_Jay

Punkofnice,

The Jebusite and Canaanite people likely merely merged with the Jews. The Hebrew Scriptures are a liturgical work (not historical nor a basis for Jewish theology). The narratives of Jews "conquering" these people is neither historic nor archeologically sound, and while we Jews know these things aren't literal reports, people prefer the Gentile Fundamentalist Christian interpretation over our explanation of our own writings. This is legendary politico-narrative explaining in religious terms how a heathen people "disappeared" once the Davidic dynasty made worship of YHVH the state ( and therefore only legal) religion in the Fertile Crescent. They didn't really go anywhere. Jews are partially composed of these (and other) Semite peoples.

This is why the text says these groups were never driven out. It is merely a liturgical narrative, meant for liturgy. Jews ARE these people. We didn't come upon ourselves and conquer ourselves in war.

The Ezekiel "oracles" (not "prophecies" that foretell events as if our prophets were mediums, a concept Gentile Christians invented and believe in) are describing why the plan to trust in Egypt's help will not save Judah from Babylonian attack and exile. Egypt is "reduced" to its legendary "plague-like state" of the Exodus in a series of symbolic pronouncements (which is what an "oracle" is). If it did foresee anything, it was merely that Judah's political intrigue with Egypt proved to be unhelpful in time of crisis. Nebuchadnezzar proved more powerful than this union between Judah and Egypt. But this may have been written during the events of political failure or merely have been a smart forecast based on reading the political scene well. It isn't the literal prophecy Christians claim it is, and anyone with a critical thinker would have the smarts to look this up in a Jewish commentary to know that.

I reiterate: the Christian idea that the Bible is some sort of magical book that works like a crystal ball to show people the future is reducing it to a grimoire. The Gentile obsession with spiritism has never been totally eradicated from Christianity, and so Christians have attributed magical powers to liturgical books of a people that despise fortune tellers or those who claim they can foresee the future. The Tanakh is not a Magic book that forecasts the future.

These are not prophecies of the future. Blame your mistaken view that they are on Christians who can't let go of their heathen and pagan ways that they need to make Jewish writings into a Magic 8 ball. When you do that, or course the so-called prophecies which Christians claim are there fail. They weren't prophecies to begin with.

It isn't Jewish writings that have failed. It is Christian claims that these are prophecies that are failures. Stop listening to them. Crack open the Jewish Study Bible and go through the critical analytical discussions there for a historical and current look at how Jews understand these texts. Would you listen to people who can't read Chinese explain ancient Chinese legends to you? Why listen to Gentiles explain the Bible to you? They can't even read Hebrew. They have to have it translated for them to read these texts, and often they won't translate them according to the ways Jews would. It's not smart to listen to people like that about the Hebrew Scriptures.

12

The wages of sin...

by joey jojo in

somewhere in the bible it says; the wages of sin is death.. just death.

not pain or anguish or agonising illnesses.

so , why do we have to endure all of the heart-breaking torment that goes along with life?

David_Jay

In Judaism, death is not a punishment. It's just part of life. You live it, you die, you rest.

Just like your being born into this world is not a reward for doing good in a previous life, dying is not a punishment because you did bad.

This is one of those ideas from Christianity that totally screws up a person's view if they read the Jewish Bible through this lens. It's also a reason a dying messiah was not acceptable to us. To redeem us from a natural part of life, a doorway to rest, is not redemption.

61

Would human settlement of Mars invalidate Bible prophecy?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

i don't think this topic has been discussed before but yesterday i read something to the effect that trump wants a human mission to mars to be completed within his presidency.. with that being said, the watchtower teaches that what started on earth ends on earth, in other words, the fall of adam and eve would end with the passing of the 1,000 year millennial reign when christ destroys all his enemies, rebellious "perfect" humans, and the devil and his demons who are let out the abyss for a short while.

he then hands the kingdom back to his father.

an elder in my old congregation once told us during a public talk that he was an ardent astronomer but then referenced the scripture where it says, "the earth he has given to the sons of men" (psalms 115:16).

David_Jay

Waton,

While originally a hope that the Davidic dynasty would be revived after the fall of Babylon, the Messianic concept developed as a sort of response to the Seleucid period, the events of which lead to a new dynasty in the Hasmoneans.

While the Maccabees did restore liberty of worship to Jerusalem, the ideal peace spoken of by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, and Zechariah that would come via David's dynasty (and perhaps run concurrent with the eschatological Olam Haba or the World to Come) did not develop once the Temple was re-dedicated (the first Chanukah).

Enter the Gemara and the Midrash, rabbinical commentary that would introduce the Jewish tradition of an individual known as "the Messiah." While originally seen as a ruler who would redeem Israel, unlike the Christian concept of "redemption from sin," Jewish redemption is the concept of liberating all Jews to return to Israel to live as freemen. Once seen as a single person, eventually the Messiahship was divided into two personages, a king in David's line and a priestly Messiah.

With the arrival of Jesus of Nazareth and Shimon Bar Kokhba on the world scene, the Messiah concept got further divided. It became solidified in Jesus by Christians who claimed that the Messiah concept was central to the Jews, and fluid after the Bar Kokhba revolt ended in Rome banishing all Jews from Israel.

While the Messiah is still not central to Judaism, the concept remains fluid for Jews, with no uniform theology. For some Jews there is still an expectation for an individual figure in the line of David who will being this redemption about.

Since monarchies have been rejected by most of modern society, some Jews see the Messiah as a concept personified. With the return of all Israel to its native soil, all humanity will "acknowledge God," and peace will reign everywhere. Whether this will involve a religious experience and any supernatural occurrences is still a matter of debate. It is also not agreed upon that any of this has a connection with Olam Haba. The Messianic concept is also still not central to all Judaism to the point that not all Jews today embrace it.

61

Would human settlement of Mars invalidate Bible prophecy?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

i don't think this topic has been discussed before but yesterday i read something to the effect that trump wants a human mission to mars to be completed within his presidency.. with that being said, the watchtower teaches that what started on earth ends on earth, in other words, the fall of adam and eve would end with the passing of the 1,000 year millennial reign when christ destroys all his enemies, rebellious "perfect" humans, and the devil and his demons who are let out the abyss for a short while.

he then hands the kingdom back to his father.

an elder in my old congregation once told us during a public talk that he was an ardent astronomer but then referenced the scripture where it says, "the earth he has given to the sons of men" (psalms 115:16).

David_Jay

Finklestein wrote:

Bible prophecy is fictional mythology, therefore it has no relevance to anything in these modern times toward humanity now, other than its historical reference.

You are SO RIGHT! Even from the Jewish viewpoint, this whole idea that the Scriptures foretell the future is Christian nonsense. Maybe the New Testament claims to do that, but Jewish Biblical "prophecy" isn't really about foretelling the future. It's about speaking up for justice sake in the name of God.

While Jews look forward toward the Messianic era or the World to Come, there are no specific foretellings beyond a general forecast of this hope. The Messianic ideal is for the most part post-Biblical (Old Testament, that is). Since most people today would never allow themselves to be ruled by a monarchy, it is likely that the Messiah-concept is a personification of a future period where humanity is able to achieve peace and prosperity, or at least the Jewish hope that such a time can happen.

But this notion of the Scriptures being used like a crystal ball or tarot cards in foretelling the march of world powers, etc., reducing Jewish Scripture to the realm of heathen and pagan magicians, witches, soothsayers and the like, I find disturbing and telling about some of the religions that promote this. The Jewish Prophets were not mediums but people who believed God was supporting their cries against injustice.

Leave it to Christians to reduce the Tanakh to the low depths of a grimoire.

22

This might be a good week to start a conversation about Jeremiah 29:10

by George One Time in

at this week clam meeting, jeremiah 29:10 is discussed:.

jer 29:10—how does this verse demonstrate the accuracy of bible prophecy?

the mistranslation of this verse is the basis of the idea that the jews spend 70 years in exile in babylon.

David_Jay

Of course, people are free to believe whatever they wish. I can only offer the critical view.

However I do sense that the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes lingers with many who leave. They feel a need to find an interpretation, a truth or enlightenment that goes beyond the simplicity of a very ancient text that was never written with an intention to be used outside Jewry.

This, IMHO, is the big "trap" of some Christian movements and interpretations, and maybe of much of religion in general: the teaching that there is some secret, some "magic," in texts that mean one thing to the people who wrote them but must be ignored in favor of the "hidden insight" promised to people who will believe anything but the original explanation.

I understand that Christians are attempting to make these texts fit their view, as a collection of texts that point to Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. Because it is difficult to make the texts acquiesce to this through the original intentions, a plethora of differing and conflicting ideas must be offered by people who will argue their view about a text they cannot even read unless it's translated into a language they understand.

While I don't claim that Jesus was just some accident that has no place in God's providence, I can't ignore that if you have to make the Hebrew texts say something the people who wrote them never intended, you have made your own religion a trap.

I don't believe people need religion to fulfill their place in life and the world. Even as a practicing Jew, I think a lot of it can be just plain harmful.

But I also think it doesn't have to be. If you are going to choose the religious path, why can't it be done with critical thinking? If the Jew can do this, can't the Christian, especially if they are claiming to have greater enlightenment and understand the Jewish Scriptures better than the Jewish people do?

People who choose religion sometimes design their own trap. All truth has to come from their religion. They have to be totally right. It's all or. nothing. Again, to me, IMO, that's a trap.

If you really want to be enlightened, why not choose actual enlightenment? There's critical study of Scripture that, believe me, if you just study it will make you far more enlightened than what you were as a JW. True, that magical feeling and high of knowing something only a select group knows won't be there. You probably won't have a lot of definitive answers either. You won't be special by what you know, true. In fact, you will know nothing different than what millions other know or can learn.

But it will be true. It might mean changing your views from a literal interpretation of Scripture to one that shows it is something less than history. But if you are looking for religious truth, isn't honesty about what you're studying and practicing enlightening enough?

If it doesn't stop Jews from worshipping God (and millions of Christians) to know what these texts are really about, why do you need the Bible to be something it isn't? If you need to make the Bible into what it isn't to keep your beliefs intact, then maybe it's not the critical view of Scripture that should be rejected.

You may not need religion, but if you choose to have it, you shouldn't choose a trap. But believe what you wish. I won't stop you.

3

Holocaust Memorial Day

by zeb in

the 25th april is commemorated in israel as holocaust memorial day.. google "times of israel"..

David_Jay

Actually, Yom Hashoah (Holocaust Memorial Day) ended today at sundown. This year it began at sundown on April 23 and just ended here where I live on the East Coast of the USA.

22

This might be a good week to start a conversation about Jeremiah 29:10

by George One Time in

at this week clam meeting, jeremiah 29:10 is discussed:.

jer 29:10—how does this verse demonstrate the accuracy of bible prophecy?

the mistranslation of this verse is the basis of the idea that the jews spend 70 years in exile in babylon.

David_Jay

This is still not a historical story, as I mentioned. This is ex eventu prophecy.

Even the Catholic NABRE Bible, the official US Catholic version (produced by Catholics and Protestants) agrees. On the footnote to Daniel 9:2, we read:

Seventy years: Jeremiah was understood to prophesy a Babylonian captivity of seventy years, a round number signifying the complete passing away of the existing generation (Jer 25:11; 29:10). On this view Jeremiah’s prophecy was seen to be fulfilled in the capture of Babylon by Cyrus and the subsequent return of the Jews to Palestine. However, the author of Daniel, living during the persecution of Antiochus, extends Jeremiah’s number to seventy weeks of years (Dn 9:24), i.e., seven times seventy years, to encompass the period of Seleucid persecution.

This chapter is ex eventu describing the events that lead up to the first Chanukah (the Seleucid/Antiochus era of persecution). Even the majority of Christianity agrees about this with Judaism.

And there were only 55 prophets of Israel, 48 male and 7 female. Daniel is not on the list. While the "prophecies" are true because they deal with real history (and point to a future that Jews in general hope in), it is not a prophetic book. The author of Daniel was not "Daniel."

22

This might be a good week to start a conversation about Jeremiah 29:10

by George One Time in

at this week clam meeting, jeremiah 29:10 is discussed:.

jer 29:10—how does this verse demonstrate the accuracy of bible prophecy?

the mistranslation of this verse is the basis of the idea that the jews spend 70 years in exile in babylon.

David_Jay

You mean the 70 "weeks" of Daniel chapter 9. These are not years.

The Book of Daniel is found in the Writings section of the Tanakh, not the Prophets section. Daniel is also not included in the list of prophets recognized by Judaism.

The Book of Daniel is not a prophetic book like Jehovah's Witnesses believe. It is an apocalypse, a description of political intrigue during the Hasmonean era, describing the events leading up to the first Chanukah. The political intrigue is disguised as "prophecy" and in the dramas involving our legendary hero Daniel and the Chaldean kings. The historical Daniel lived long before the Babylonian exile, but he was not a prophet. He is known for living an exemplary Jewish life among Gentiles before the era of the Prophets even began.

Chapter 9 of Daniel is known as "ex eventu" prophecy, a retelling of history as if it was prophecy, but composed only after the event happened and the author was fully aware of it. It is actually talking about the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanies which caused the rise of the Maccabees. "Daniel" is saying that the events leading to the first Chanukah were ordained by God by recording the history as if it were a prophecy.

22

This might be a good week to start a conversation about Jeremiah 29:10

by George One Time in

at this week clam meeting, jeremiah 29:10 is discussed:.

jer 29:10—how does this verse demonstrate the accuracy of bible prophecy?

the mistranslation of this verse is the basis of the idea that the jews spend 70 years in exile in babylon.

David_Jay

Jews themselves do not teach nor understand Jeremiah's 70-year prophecy as referring to the time we remained in exile.

The English rendition of this text from the NJPS Tanakh reads:

For thus said the Lord: When Babylon’s seventy years are over, I will take note of you, and I will fulfill to you My promise of favor—to bring you back to this place.

In other words, the prophet says that God has set a time limit for Babylon of 70 years. When did these years actually begin and why did they begin at this point? The prophet never says. Did they end when Israel was released? Did they end when the famous "writing on the wall" of Daniel was seen? Was it when Babylon fell to its enemies? Or was it when the first exiled Jew set foot back in Israel? Maybe it was when the Temple was built? Nobody knows any of this, at least not Jews.

The 70 years determination is merely a declaration similar to Genesis 6:3 where God says people has been given a limit of 120 years. This is determined to mean the limit of a lifespan, but just a few verses later Noah lives over 900 years. Jacob lives to be 147 years old. Then is this verse in Genesis Saying there will be only 120 years until the Flood of Noah? If so, when did those years start to count? Are they lunar years? If so, do they follow the Jewish lunar calendar with its leap years or that of a more universally accepted "year" of all the earth that has since been forgotten?

These verses have no specifics regarding what the years being discussed involved. They do share the same feature of God being spoken of setting a limit, but nothing more.

I still have to wonder how and why Christians like the JWs make such big deals over making precise determinations over them. Especially regarding the Babylonian exile, since we Jews experienced it and even we don't have precise information on Jeremiah's meaning, what gives others greater insight or over-concern about this verse? So somehow God gives the prophecy to Jews but only Gentiles get to know it's actual meaning? Yeah, right.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay