Posts by PioneerSchmioneer

41

God cannot lie

by psyco in

the bible does not say that god does not want to lie, but that he cannot lie or it is impossible for god to lie.

.

so, if god cannot lie, for what purpose and why did he create creatures (satan, demons, humans) who can lie?.

I do not see the connection between the OP and Adam and Eve. But whatever it is, I don't believe people need to follow the Bible or some religion after leaving the Watchtower to find answers. But since that is what we are talking about...

The original question was based on the Watchtower conundrum caused by the Biblical texts of Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2, and Hebrews 6:18 in light of the narrative where God sends a “lying spirit” into the mouth of prophets found at 1 Kings 22:21-23 and 2 Chronicles 18:21-23.

Fundamentalist Christians also face this same problem due to their literal interpretation of Scripture. I think this is quite a bother for quite a few people who want all things to fit in a nice perfect package, and they try to make everything work together with creative but often failed reasoning instead of looking at narratives for what they are.

However, even with a literalist view of the Fall of Man, very few if any pick on the phrase found at Genesis 2:17, BEYOWIM, which often gets translated as “on the day” in formal equivalence Bible translations, but in Hebrew actually means “then/when/at that time” and appears over 2300 times in the Hebrew text, and many times it never even means “day” at all: Ge 30:33; Le 14:57; Nu 6:13; 1 Sa 18:10; 1 Ch 12:23, etc.

Some formal equivalence translations do not render the word “day” in the instance at Genesis 2:17:

From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.--NABRE.

But if you use the word “day,” it means the same thing as when a parent tells a child: “You will rue the day you ever did that!” It is an old form of English, and it doesn’t mean that something will happen on a certain day. To “rue the day” is a phrase Shakespeare made famous that means “to regret.” The way the King James Version rendered Genesis 2:17 trickled down to many other Bibles, and the phrase became a standard in English--until recently due to its misunderstanding.

To sound like an old broken record with a previous post:

Maimonides, the great Jewish philosopher of the Middle Ages, essentially taught that there was no difference between creating an image out of wood or stone and worshiping that or creating one out of words and calling that your god. Either way, you are still making an idol, he explained, visible or out of words, shaping it to look and act like a human, and calling it God--even though it was in your image and acting like a man or woman: lying, being jealous, angry, etc. That, Maimonides taught, is not God. That is an idol, even if it just made out of words found from the Scriptures.

The stories written by ancient Bible writers, though very pious and faithful, were limited due to their culture and even (as the prophets would condemn them for) their worship practices, to think of their own Deity under the limits of Levant religions which thought of gods as human monarchs, sitting on thrones, acting like kings, controlling the earth from on high. Those concepts, Maimonides argued, were inventions of humans. If there was a God he proposed, then such descriptions could not be used to properly fit the Deity.

Stories about God sitting on a throne and arguing with humans and getting mad and angry and having a head and arms and having any kind of attribute a human would have, including lying, is anthropomorphic. That is one way we know a Biblical story is either mythological, folklore or legend.

Mainstream religion answered this question in the Middle Ages--that's a long time ago. The Jehovah's Witnesses came from the Second Great Awakening where they rejected teachings from higher learning, history, the Jewish sages, and even the Church Fathers. If it wasn't written between the pages of a King James Bible, it wasn't truth.

It was a sad way to look at the world, with Millerites sitting on top of roofs after having given away all their earthly belongings waiting for Jesus to return--something we would see repeat itself again and again in certain ways among the JWs with their failed prophecies too.

It's not so much the Bible itself that is the problem. It's a group of people who can't get out of a cave of lesser learning and apparently won't do it.

14

Did Jesus have a pre-existence or was he fully human, begotten at his human birth.

by gavindlt in

so when was jesus begotten.

was he truly and wholly fully human.

did he exist in two states, part human part god.

PioneerSchmioneer

The expressions "begotten" and "Son" were borrowed Hebrewisms from the Patriarchs and Davidic dynasty psalms, such as Psalm 2, where God tells David (and each member of his house) that anyone who would sit on his throne in that dynasty would become a "son" or an "incarnation" of God to the people of Israel. This type of terminology was used by other cultures such as the Greek and Roman rulers who would in later centuries call themselves "son of god," or "begotten" of a deity, not meaning they were a child but an incarnation of their own heathen and pagan gods on earth. The New Testament writers of the gospel used these expressions as they struggled to explain finding God in Jesus since they were Jews who at the same time believed in the unbreakable centrality of the Shema. Thus they referred to Jesus as God in those terms--an "incarnation"--using those particular Hebrewisms since Judaism didn't have the word "incarnation" as it was Latin and they were as of yet unfamiliar with the tongue and the Pagan religion from which it originated.

As to the make up of the states, that is more of a religious question belonging to denominational makeup and division. Most in Christianity believe Jesus was fully human and fully divine, but since God is Ineffable, how this works is thus beyond comprehension in most of these religious theologies.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Scripture text at Genesis 1:26-27 wherein one finds the words "let us make" is not just about Jesus but has long been held by all branches of mainstream Christianity as pointing to the likely involvement of each person of the Trinity, including the Holy Spirit and the Father, in creation.--CCC 307, 1942, 2402.

As to the "antichrist," this is generally understood in Scripture and theology as a psuedo-messianic figure or deception, usually one that is expected to appear before the eschatological conclusion to history.

73

Did God know adam and eve would sin?

by gavindlt in

to all those on this forum, i would love to know what your take on this vital question is..

PioneerSchmioneer

It doesn't follow that there was a literal or history play of Adam and Eve "sin and thus fall from perfection" as Jehovah's Witnesses teach.

Judaism and Catholicism/Eastern Orthodox Christianity, as well as mainstream Protestantism teach that this narrative is, in the words of The Didache Bible:

"Not scientific or historical but rather a kind of prologue that uses literary image and symbolic language to express fundamental truth,"--Introduction to The First Book of Moses Commonly Called Genesis: Main Themes--The Didache Bible, Midwest Theological Forum, Ignatius Press, 2014

Not much in the Torah is narrative independent of some legal precedent. Non-Jewish readers often forget when reading Genesis through Deuteronomony that this is one book, not a library of books or independent stories. It is a book of laws. Any "story" that has found its way in (whether myth or legend or folklore) teaches or demonstrates a Jewish law in one way or another. To demonstrate, the most well-known tale about Abraham's life among Jews entitled "Abraham and the Idol Shop" does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures but in the Talmud.* It is well-preserved folklore, but it does not teach any Jewish law, such as the Binding of Isaac (known in Hebrew as "Akedah") found at Genesis 22. So you don't find that story, though the most famous in Jewry about Abraham, in the Bible.

While Judaism and mainstream Christianity understand some sort of "fall from grace" is allegorically demonstrated in this narrative, it cannot be broken down into any type of historical timeline or explained what the imagery stood for. God, not being subject to time in mainstream religious theology and being Ineffable, is not subject to anthropomorphic concepts like comprehension or existing in time (therefore God "knowing something ahead of time" is only something a primitive idol deity would do--Jehovah's Witnesses being stuck of thinking of their "Jehovah" in antropomorphic or human-like terms.

*--For more details on the actual story, see here.

41

God cannot lie

by psyco in

the bible does not say that god does not want to lie, but that he cannot lie or it is impossible for god to lie.

.

so, if god cannot lie, for what purpose and why did he create creatures (satan, demons, humans) who can lie?.

PioneerSchmioneer

This is typical of "black and white thinking" that comes from cults, and it causes many of us to make all or nothing decisions even after we leave the Watchtower, showing that sometimes we cannot entirely stop the habit due to the hold that this type of reasoning has on us (i.e., "Since salt is totally bad then I will give using all forms of spices and never use any again," so to speak).

Theologically speaking, the understanding of a "lie" in Watchtower doctrine is very different when compared to mainstream religion. So one will come to very mistaken conclusions if they do not do things like study what Maimonides, Aquinas, and Augustine have to say on this matter.

In brief, it is only the New Testament that is talking about God not lying when compared to Satan the Devil (an entity which does not actually exist in Judaism, per se). And the type of lying the New Testament is talking about (the Old Testament actually has God telling lies, by the way) is not deception itself but making a statement that is injuious. This is why one needs to study the Church Fathers, the very ones responsible for preserving the writings of the apostles up until the time of the closing of the New Testament canon.

Note that at 1 Kings 22:19-23, God literally deceives Ahab with the help of righteous angels. That goes against the Watchtower concept of good and evil. Only Satan can lie, right?

There is a difference between malice and justice (and the above Old Testament story that explains in simple human terms a tale where God controls earthly matters--which is where Maimonides comes in and explains that due to God really not being an anthropomorphic entity, this could not have occurred in the terms we read).

That is an important point that we miss from our education as JWs, that God is not like God's creation that has an actual need for imitating anything we are or do in human terms (which includes lying). JWs still believe that God is an antrhopomorphic entity, but Judaism and Christianity does not. They believe that God is Ineffable and that the Scriptures use language that is reflective of the Bronze Age when even the Bible writers spoke of God like their idolatrous neighbors, as if God were an idol god: with a head, eyes, arms, hands, and even human attributes, feelings, and the abilities we have, like tell the truth and lie. God is not a human and is actually above all that.

JWs are not allowed to study what the great religious thinkers have taught (because it will expose the false doctrines of the cult). So this is why many have may have some of these questions. These are generally considered "boring" subjects covered in childrens' Catholic catechism and Jewish Hebrew school lessons that for the most part go over many young people's heads or if they do manage to keep their eyes open, they are likely to shelve the ideas way back into their heads where the cobwebs grow.

Some of this might be very hard to grasp if we have not moved past the need to see things in the "black and white" model and demand that things must either be this way or not. Watchtower theology implodes in on itself because it limits itself to the Bible, something neither Judaism nor Christianity does. (Even Fundamentalism doesn't, though it claims to--which I am not touching here.) Watchtower is a cult, and cult thinking comes up with very weird ideas.

Stop and think: Nobody in Judaism or mainstream Christianity has gone mad thinking about this issue, have they? Apparently it's because it is not an issue. It's a Watchtower cult thing. Can God lie? God is not an entity. Haven't you studied Maimonides before your confirmation or your bar/bat mitzvah? You didn't have either? Where did you grow up? In a cult?

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Kosonen:

So I guess you believe in disfellowshipping people too, huh? They did that to you, and now you do that to me too, huh? I have asked you to reply to me, again and again, and you refuse. You just go on and ignore me, even though it is written:

"Always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you."--1 Peter 3:15

and again:

"And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers."--Luke 2:47.

You have done none of that. So I'm not wasting my time on you anymore. If you really were what you claimed to be, I would have had that defense and been amaed at your understanding and answers because you would be like your master who you claim to follow.

But you don't show love. You just ignore.

Ignoring people is not love. You of all people, a disfellowshipped person, should know that.

Have fun posting your unloving posts from an unloving religion.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Leathercrop:

I am not recommending any form of religion or Bible interpretation to Kosonen, save one: Stop preaching Watchtower to us here.

However, I want to make it clear that I stand opposed to anyone who claims that any type of ideology is for everyone once they leave the Watchtower. People should be free to make their own choices.

I have been trying to show Kosonen on his own level that what he has been doing has been unreasonable--but I have not been trying to offer a brand of religion for him to choose as an alternative to Watchtower, nor do I believe that people need religion or the Bible once they leave the JWs to have a happy life.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

stan livedeath:

@ Pi schmi
Oh--OK thanks
( reminder to self NOT to read this boring thread again )

Stan is right about one thing. It is boring watching Kosonen not admit he doesn't know how to answer my questions or that he can't admit he is wrong.

He gives us Watchtower-like offerings because even though he is disfellowshipped, deep down he probably wants back in, obviously. He wouldn't preach all these teachings or claim that Jesus is the head of the their cult if that wasn't the case.

It's boring watching somebody keep their "talent" in a hole. It's boring watching the blind try to lead blind people into this hole. It's like watching the JWs on a street corner offer their books. They can't preach anymore. They know nothing.

Who wants to watch a man talk about what he has buried in a hole?

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Kosonen:

So what that you offer Scripture quotes? Satan himself does that.--See Matthew chapter 4:1-6; Luke 4:1-11.

Your refusal to stubbornly explain things, when it is apparent that you can add commentary when you want (as you did to a small degree in these last posts of yours) reminds me of the Parable of the Talents in Matthew (which is called the Parable of the Minas in Luke). In both there is a wicked, lazy slave who a traveling master recognizes is able to handle doing business with one coin, but in both parables, unlike his fellow slaves, doesn't use his abilities. He instead hides it away and gives a somewhat insulting excuse to his master upon his arrival as to why he did nothing with what was given to him.--Matthew 25:14-30; Luke 19:11-27.

Your last posts are not encouraging anyone. They are there to offer a personal excuse for yourself, explaining why you feel you are in the right to just keep going--even claiming that "praise" from others in your work is bad.

Jesus didn't say you would only encounter negativity, however. He also stated there would be success, such as in the parables of the Talents and Minas, that these coins would multiply--if you used these talents correctly.

If you just dig a hole and hide them away in some cloth, there is nothing to multiply. There should be success, not decrease when your master arrives. Again, you are used to the way a cult, the Watchtower, is reading the Bible in the light of their own failures and the fact that the public generally dislikes a cult that repeatedly lies about when the world is going to end--and then refuses to take responsibility for being wrong.

If you don't let go of that very unbiblical view, you will end up suffering for it:

"His master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy slave! You knew, did you, that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not scatter? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to the one with the ten talents. For to all those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance, but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. As for this worthless slave, throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"--Matthew 25:26-30 NRSV Updated Edition.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

Kosonen says:

Sorry to hear your frustration, PioneerSchmioneer, I read your posts and thought a bit if I could write you a reply, but I don't feel any force to do that. The task would be too burdensome...I could just post such scriptures without comments.

But did Jesus merely give people Scriptures without comments? No. In fact when he would give detailed commentary and explain the meaning of the Biblical texts, as for example:

"Everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms..."

The gospels inform us that he just didn't give them lists of Scriptures to be explained on how these texts must me "fulfilled" in connection with him.--Luke 24:44-47.

"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself."--Luke 24:27

You are unlike Jesus if you are just tossing Scriptures in the air and expecting people to understand them on their own. For it is written:

"Everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher."--Luke 6:40.

And again, the Scriptures teach that you are expected to explain the texts, for have you not read the account in Acts of the Ethiopian eunich who was reading from the scroll of the prophet Isaiah?

Did not the Holy Spirit use Philip to explain the Scriptures to him so that he might become a Christian?--Acts 8:26-38.

If we are merely supposed to let people alone with Scripture texts, then would not the Holy Spirit have enlightened the eunich without Philip's help? Obviously you do not know that if you are to call yourself a Christian, then you are assigned to explain the word of God.

The Church Fathers knew this. In fact, if it were not for the earliest Christians doing this, we would not have the texts you are trying to post today. Someone had to explain the texts because in the Roman world of the 1st century, few could read and write. There would be no canon of the New Testament if it were not for their hard work of studying and explaining the texts. And there would be no new disciples.

“The [Church] Fathers were the first to face certain problems that Christianity was bound to encounter and continues to encounter, and they provided responses that are classic, if not canonized. The nature of God, God’s relation to the world, the humanity and divinity of Christ, the nature and structure of the church, the authority of Scripture, the moral obligations of the human person: these are among the issues that the Fathers first addressed."--Beginning to Read the Fathers: Revised Edition by James Boniface Ramsey, Paulist Press.

Kosonen said:

But that did not go well either. I got many angry demands that I stop posting them scriptures and they often misunderstood me in my view on Jesus.

Then you need to rethink being a Christian. For Jesus himself said:

"If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours."--John 15:19-20.

Jesus told those who wanted to follow him to count the cost before they did. (Luke 14:28-29) It includes people getting angry at you--and worse.

If you are not willing to deal with these things--which you just admitted you are not--then as you have just confessed to everyone here, you are not willing to go all the way for Christ.

You will only follow Jesus, as long as it doesn't hurt.

____

Scripture quotations are from the ESV Catholic Edition with Deuterocanonical Books.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

stan livedeath writes:

so why did god only have one son ? Seems a bit odd from a jewish point of view.

If you've only been exposed to Watchtower religion, it might seem like the term "Son of God" is limited to the English expression: "male offspring of God." But it didn't mean that to the ancients. It meant an "incarnation" of a deity.

For instance, during the same period of time the Greeks and Romans used the same type of expression that was common in the Semitic world and would apply it in their mythology and legends. Not only there, but their political leaders like Augustus also took this title, "son of god," and applied it to themselves, to declare that they were divine, namely an incarnation of a god that the people worshiped.

This is because in most languages, the syntax structure of the term "son of X" means more than "male offspring of X" like it does in the English language (which did not exist in ancient times.) It meant "having the identical quality of X."

You find it in Scripture a lot, such as when Jesus calls John and James "sons of thunder" (Mark 3:17) and Judas Isacariot the "son of destruction" or "son of perdition" as in most Bibles. (John 17:12) Neither thunder nor destruction can have a "male offspring." But these people were like or had the qualities of thunder and/or destruction.

Thus the reason Pontius Pilate, who had no fear to have Jesus scourged one moment, suddenly does become fearful and rushes Jesus back into his palace for a private conversation away from the crowds to ask where he really comes from after he hears that he is known as the "Son of God."--John 19:7-8.

The term means "God Incarnate," and Pilate feared he had just had the Incarnation of YHWH, the God of the Jews whipped. And now he had feared it was some politcal intrigue and jealousy that was delivering Jesus, this possible incarnate diety into his hands--and he didn't want to be responsible for any of what was to happen next. Romans were big believers in the myths of the incarnations of the gods.--Note John 19:12-14.

So this is not a child of God but is supposed to be an incaranation of God. "The Word was God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."--John 1:1, 14.

This is why in English they use a capital "S" when it is in reference to Jesus Christ as in "Son of God" because it in reference to the Incarnation.

The idea of "son of X" is found throughout the Hebrew text as well. For instance, in Psalm chapter 2, in the Hebrew the ruiling king in the line of David is called the "son of God," meaning an "incarnation" or substitution for God on earth.

Christians thus use Psalm 2 as a prophecy for the Messiah. It was the Jewish Christians, according to the writings of the Church Fathers, who first recognized this. The gospel of Matthew, for instance, opens with applying Isaiah 7:14, saying "Emmanuel" or "God With Us" is fulfilled in the birth of Jesus at Matthew 1:22-25. This gospel was composed by and for the Jewish Christian community.