Posts by PioneerSchmioneer

21

Christians Encouraged to Read 'Pagan' Works

by peacefulpete in

clement of alexandria.

the stromata, or miscellanies.

book vi.

PioneerSchmioneer

The 27 books of the Christian New Testament canon were not finalized until 367 CE.

Clement and Justin Martyr lived about 200 years before then.

The books of Revelation and 2 Peter were unheard of in their time, while the Apocalypse of Peter and the Shepherd of Hermas were read almost universally before then.

The idea of a Biblical canon was unknown in the time of Justin. It was a new invention of a contemporary heretic of his, Marcion of Sinope, a bishop that was excommunicated for his suggesting that the church should limit itself to doctrine based on a closed canon of texts and that the texts could produce salvific knowledge.

Due to the rise of the Marcionist threat, the church had to counter with its own canon. But prior to this, Christianity was based on the teachings from a "college" that passed down tradition learned from the Apostles. At one time the college was made up of Clement and Justin, who are known as the Church Fathers.

This is why Western schools of higher learning are called a "college" as opposed to a "yeshiva." Colleges are higher schools of learning once set up by Christians where you learned from the Elders or Fathers as opposed to yeshivas which are academies where Jews learn from rabbis.

This is why Jehovah's Witnesses are against sending their children to schools of higher learning. The foundation of such institutions are religious in nature, even though today one tends to associate then with the secular.

Oxford, Nortre Dame, Stanford, Yale--all these and more are all founded as religious universities. The Apostolic College, as it is known, passed its Tradition to the Church Fathers like Clement and Justin Martyr. Only later did they add a closed canon of Scriptures to Apostolic Tradition, but only by the authority already present in bishops passed down from and by the Fathers.

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

PioneerSchmioneer

Sea Breeze:

To "worship" in Koine Greek (and in ancient times) means to "offer an act of obeisance" in modern American and UK usage.

The word at Hebrews 1:6 is the Greek verb PROSKUNEO, and it means to "perform an act of reverence before" another person, usually one of higher rank or someone you honor.

It occurs, for instance, at Matthew 20:20:

Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to him with her sons, and kneeling [proskynousa] before him, she asked a favor of him.

According to Josephus, this was the way people would greet the high priest--he actually uses the same Greek word--since they were the representative (though not the incarnation of) God, during the days the Second Temple was standing.

This likely explains why Cornelius is spoken of greeting Peter at Acts 10:25, with the use of the word PROSKUNEO and Peter rejects it.

To show that the word has only reference to the act and not to creed (which is often the case in Judaism), it is used in John 4:22) as the word for "worship":

You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

One can "worship" what they "do not know." In other words, one can "bow before" something they have no real knowledge of.

If the word meant to "worship" as in "belief and adore and creed," then that would be different, but PROSKUNEO does not. It refers to homage, kneeling, prostration.

Jehovah's Witnesses do tend to bend the rules a lot with the New World Translation. But in some cases they are just different, in the minority--and people find it irksome.

In the end, it is a play on words. Obeisance is something you give to a king or a deity anyway, and a king almost always represents a god on earth. Again just like the high priest of the Temple was a representative of God (though not an incarnation). So it doesn't matter what word you use. The context still states in Hebrews that Jesus is greater than the angels because he is like God to them.

And thus the problem with whatever words the NWT tries to choose. You can only go so far.

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

PioneerSchmioneer

If there were any clear claims by Jesus or his apostles that he was God there would never have been

Docetism: the claim that Jesus was God in an apparent or "phantom" body
Separationism: that divinity only dwelt in Jesus of Nazareth from his baptism until his death
Modalism: that God exists under there "modes" of activity instead of three persons, namely the modes of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Separationism--a time when Jesus was not God? How could God not be God for 30 years--and your followers decide when you became God and stopped being God?

Modalism? Trinitarianism? How do your followers decide how much of you is God and how many of "you" make up God?

Modalism was the favored view of Christians during the 2nd and the beginning of the 3rd centuries.

Why all these debates and heresies in the early church about Jesus among the Christians if it's all supposed to be so clear to begin with--if Jesus made it crystal clear that he is God?

21

Christians Encouraged to Read 'Pagan' Works

by peacefulpete in

clement of alexandria.

the stromata, or miscellanies.

book vi.

PioneerSchmioneer

Not only were they encouraged to read pagan works, the Christians give Scriptural reasons why they encouraged such study--especially philosophy (which they would eventually use to develop the Trinity dogma)--based on Jewish Tradition that is very ancient.

According to Exodus 3:22, the Hebrew text explains that God wanted the Israelites to strip the Egyptians of their gold and silver as they left the land. This meant to take their jewelry and temple decor which consisted of religious idol emblems. From these the Jews crafted what would become the sacred parts of the Tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant itself.

Based on this understanding, the Church Fathers understood that it was necessary to "stip the world" of its "gold and silver," namely its wisdom and philosophy in order to find ways to better equip itself to both worship God and preach the Gospel. This it did, not merely to formulate various doctrines but to create various fields and schools of higher learning.

The idea is not central to Christianity as it comes from the Jewish sages and was later developed after the fall of the Second Temple in the Talmud by Judaism which, as many know, has an even greater love for higher education than Christians seem to have. It is older than the Temple itself, so to speak.

19

I have some questions about the Org.!

by KerryKing in

are any or all of the gb from jewish descent?.

why are they so fascinated with following ancient jewish 'principles' ?.

isa 43:10, 44:8 ' you are my witnesses ' which they based their religious identity on, jehovah's witnesses, yet those verses address the jews, not christians, which they profess to be.. jesus said in ac 1:8 'you will be witnesses of me ', .

PioneerSchmioneer

Diogenesister:

Interestingly enough, in Bible times a Jewish identity was reckoned from the male line and only after the founding of Rabbinic Judaism did it change to the maternal line...

Actually it was likely in the time of Ezra, which was in Biblical times, that matrilineality in Judaism, was likely set, around 460 BCE, due to Jewish men taking on foreign wives. But it could have been set as late as the period of the Tannaim (10-70 CE) who were Jewish sages contemporary with Jesus and the Apostles that recorded the Mishnah.

Either way, it was likely set prior to the so-called "Rabbinical" period that Watchtower teaches JWs to look down upon so heavily. The reason why it is usually attributed to Ezra (at least traditionally so) is because of the Torah's narrative of the Patriarchs and the Book of Ruth (which is believed to come from the time of Ezra as well).

For instance: Abraham's son Isaac is Jewish because Sarah is Abraham's half-sister, who according to tradition, makes her Jewish. But Abraham's other son, Ishmael is not a Jew because his mother, Hagar is not Jewish--get it? Issac had two Jewish sons: Jacob and Esau. Jacob's sons were Jewish because he married wives who were Jewish relatives but Esau's son's were not Jewish because his wives were Canaanites. Get the picture? And it goes on and on throughout the Torah this way.

You are Jewish, but only if your mother is Jewish "according to what is written in the Torah," because it is just not a book of stories to Jews, but because this it is the Mosaic Law we are taking about.

In the Book of Ruth, the Moabite Ruth converts to worship the God of Abraham, making her a Jew. So when she is married by a "redeemer," she legally becomes the Jewish mother of Obed, the forefather of King David. Why? Because your mother makes you a Jew. This is even mentioned in the geneologies of Jesus.

In fact, the apostle Paul says Gentiles become spiritual Jews, or a spiritual "son" through the martilineality clause at Galatians 4:4-5 due to the fact that Jesus was born via Mary:

But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

So if you are a Christian and believe you have a spiritual "sonship" it is because of this ancient belief system in Judaism that comes from being "born of a worman, born under the law." That is what Paul was talking about.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

While there is no text in the Exodus or the rest of the Torah that literally says that the Mosaic Law "was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator," as written at Galatians 3:19, it is obvious that the apostle Paul believed in the Jewish concept from which this stemmed.

It is part of Jewish Tradition that Torah was delievered from Sinai not from God directly but by means of angels.

It can be found, for instance, in the Book of Jubilees where at 1:26-2:1 "the angel of the presence" tells Moses to write down all the details of the Mosaic Law, from the stories of creation found in Genesis to all the other details of the Law afterward.

It should be of interest that the Greek Septuagint, which was the version of the Torah that Christians were using in the first century, especially when quoting to write the New Testament, reads at Deuteronomy 33:2:

The Lord is come from Sina[i]...on his right hand his angels with him.

While the verses at Exodus 23 don't claim that the angel leading and guarding the Hebrews is bringing the Mosaic Law, the ones added to the Greek LXX reading seem to be influenced by Jewish Oral Tradition that reshaped the Hebrew text (Sinai is where the Law came from):

God came from Sinai...Lightning flashing at them from God's right.--RJPS 2023, from the Masoretic Text.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

PioneerSchmioneer

Luke 22:37 is a quote of Isaiah 53:12, not of a non-canonical text:

"He hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked."--Douay-Rheims Version.

"He poured out His life unto death, And was counted with wrongdoers. "--New American Standard.

"He poured out himself to death and was numbered with the transgressors."--NRSVue.

The Suffering Servant Oracles, again, are Israel, enslaved to Babylon, when the Jews once believed in a "suffering-sign-of-God's-displeasure" theology that no longer exists. These were applied to Jesus (and some tried to apply them to the failure of Bar Kokhba) via retrofitting to try to make sense of what happened to these two great figures of history since neither were supposed to fail in death.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

PioneerSchmioneer

If there really was such a view as a "suffering messiah" in Judaism, then why would Peter tell Jesus immediately after identifying him as the Messiah and the Son of God, that it was impossible for him to suffer?--Matthew 16:13-23.

It is not possible that such a view was known among Jesus' followers since on the walk to Emmaus Jesus says his disciples are foolish for not believing his earlier teachings that the Messiah was going to suffer before entering into glory based on what the Hebrew Scriptures taught-- not from other obscure texts to which no references are ever made.--Luke 24:25-27, 32.

Jesus later reiterated that his Messianic role was something far different than the Jews expected, including a salvific work that would save the Gentiles--including a work of proclaiming this news to them, and that this was what was the real message found in the Jewish Scriptures was all about. --Luke 24:44-49.

The Messianic role Jesus claimed for himself is supposed to be something unexpected, not something predicted. It was foreshadowed in the words of the Prophets, but not directly. No Jew could expect what Jesus was teaching, including an end to the literal monarchy of Israel.

Those who look for a "suffering messiah" in obscure texts also require literalism in texts due to personal beliefs. There are no literal texts that spell out any messianic doctrine, Jewish or Christian in the Hebrew Tanakh to begin with, making any secondary attempt with other texts problematic.

If these other texts are indeed about a suffering messiah, it would not matter. They did nothing to help Peter or the apostles of old, nor did Jesus claim anything about these in reference to himself as far as we know. The first followers of Jesus were shocked to see him arrested, tortured and die.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

PioneerSchmioneer

The concept of "suffering comes from [divine] disfavor" that Peacefulpete is making reference to in his previous post in reference to the Wisdom of Solomon has to do with a Jewish belief that is found in the Biblical Prophets.

It was abandoned by the Jews after the Third Jewish Revolt. But since Scripture writing did not continue, Christians don't tend to acknowledge that Jewish theology isn't static.

While it wasn't fully developed yet in the Diaspora, after the Holocaust a formal theological revision of the view was finally settled, namely that suffering is not a sign of divine disfavor. It is one of the few universal dogmatic views found throughout Jewish religion today

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

PioneerSchmioneer

The Wisdom of Solomon is a work found in the LXX, one of the books found in the Catholic canon.

The view that the texts from chapter 2 are "messianic" are a popular Catholic and Orthodox tradition that goes back to the Church Fathers but not further.

You can actually see this from looking up Wisdom 2:10-20 in practically any Catholic Bible since they are generally annotated with footnotes. You will usually find that this section is regarded as prophetic of Christ's passion, tied to Matthew 27:41-44 or one of the other accounts.

While the text is quite interesting, the author is merely stating that the wicked run around in groups of thugs, attacking people who faithfully observe the Mosaic Law and believe in God. It doesn't say anything about a messiah. It was written in 100 CE.

The book is not regarded as canonical by the Jews.