Posts by PioneerSchmioneer

48

Is Jesus God?

by Sea Breeze in

i know that a lot of historical names have claimed to be a god.

but, jesus arguably claimed to be god.

scripture says he's the creator.

PioneerSchmioneer

If there were any clear claims by Jesus or his apostles that he was God there would never have been

Docetism: the claim that Jesus was God in an apparent or "phantom" body
Separationism: that divinity only dwelt in Jesus of Nazareth from his baptism until his death
Modalism: that God exists under there "modes" of activity instead of three persons, namely the modes of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Separationism--a time when Jesus was not God? How could God not be God for 30 years--and your followers decide when you became God and stopped being God?

Modalism? Trinitarianism? How do your followers decide how much of you is God and how many of "you" make up God?

Modalism was the favored view of Christians during the 2nd and the beginning of the 3rd centuries.

Why all these debates and heresies in the early church about Jesus among the Christians if it's all supposed to be so clear to begin with--if Jesus made it crystal clear that he is God?

21

Christians Encouraged to Read 'Pagan' Works

by peacefulpete in

clement of alexandria.

the stromata, or miscellanies.

book vi.

Not only were they encouraged to read pagan works, the Christians give Scriptural reasons why they encouraged such study--especially philosophy (which they would eventually use to develop the Trinity dogma)--based on Jewish Tradition that is very ancient.

According to Exodus 3:22, the Hebrew text explains that God wanted the Israelites to strip the Egyptians of their gold and silver as they left the land. This meant to take their jewelry and temple decor which consisted of religious idol emblems. From these the Jews crafted what would become the sacred parts of the Tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant itself.

Based on this understanding, the Church Fathers understood that it was necessary to "stip the world" of its "gold and silver," namely its wisdom and philosophy in order to find ways to better equip itself to both worship God and preach the Gospel. This it did, not merely to formulate various doctrines but to create various fields and schools of higher learning.

The idea is not central to Christianity as it comes from the Jewish sages and was later developed after the fall of the Second Temple in the Talmud by Judaism which, as many know, has an even greater love for higher education than Christians seem to have. It is older than the Temple itself, so to speak.

19

I have some questions about the Org.!

by KerryKing in

are any or all of the gb from jewish descent?.

why are they so fascinated with following ancient jewish 'principles' ?.

isa 43:10, 44:8 ' you are my witnesses ' which they based their religious identity on, jehovah's witnesses, yet those verses address the jews, not christians, which they profess to be.. jesus said in ac 1:8 'you will be witnesses of me ', .

PioneerSchmioneer

Diogenesister:

Interestingly enough, in Bible times a Jewish identity was reckoned from the male line and only after the founding of Rabbinic Judaism did it change to the maternal line...

Actually it was likely in the time of Ezra, which was in Biblical times, that matrilineality in Judaism, was likely set, around 460 BCE, due to Jewish men taking on foreign wives. But it could have been set as late as the period of the Tannaim (10-70 CE) who were Jewish sages contemporary with Jesus and the Apostles that recorded the Mishnah.

Either way, it was likely set prior to the so-called "Rabbinical" period that Watchtower teaches JWs to look down upon so heavily. The reason why it is usually attributed to Ezra (at least traditionally so) is because of the Torah's narrative of the Patriarchs and the Book of Ruth (which is believed to come from the time of Ezra as well).

For instance: Abraham's son Isaac is Jewish because Sarah is Abraham's half-sister, who according to tradition, makes her Jewish. But Abraham's other son, Ishmael is not a Jew because his mother, Hagar is not Jewish--get it? Issac had two Jewish sons: Jacob and Esau. Jacob's sons were Jewish because he married wives who were Jewish relatives but Esau's son's were not Jewish because his wives were Canaanites. Get the picture? And it goes on and on throughout the Torah this way.

You are Jewish, but only if your mother is Jewish "according to what is written in the Torah," because it is just not a book of stories to Jews, but because this it is the Mosaic Law we are taking about.

In the Book of Ruth, the Moabite Ruth converts to worship the God of Abraham, making her a Jew. So when she is married by a "redeemer," she legally becomes the Jewish mother of Obed, the forefather of King David. Why? Because your mother makes you a Jew. This is even mentioned in the geneologies of Jesus.

In fact, the apostle Paul says Gentiles become spiritual Jews, or a spiritual "son" through the martilineality clause at Galatians 4:4-5 due to the fact that Jesus was born via Mary:

But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

So if you are a Christian and believe you have a spiritual "sonship" it is because of this ancient belief system in Judaism that comes from being "born of a worman, born under the law." That is what Paul was talking about.

543

Encouraging scriptures for the day

by Kosonen in

jw
friends

hello my friends,.

here are some encouraging scriptures for the day:.

revelation 21:2 i also saw the holy city, new jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from god and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.. hebrews 11:10 for he (abraham) was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is god.. revelation 21:24 and the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.. revelation 22:1 and he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of god and of the lamb 2 down the middle of its main street (of the holy city).

PioneerSchmioneer

While there is no text in the Exodus or the rest of the Torah that literally says that the Mosaic Law "was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator," as written at Galatians 3:19, it is obvious that the apostle Paul believed in the Jewish concept from which this stemmed.

It is part of Jewish Tradition that Torah was delievered from Sinai not from God directly but by means of angels.

It can be found, for instance, in the Book of Jubilees where at 1:26-2:1 "the angel of the presence" tells Moses to write down all the details of the Mosaic Law, from the stories of creation found in Genesis to all the other details of the Law afterward.

It should be of interest that the Greek Septuagint, which was the version of the Torah that Christians were using in the first century, especially when quoting to write the New Testament, reads at Deuteronomy 33:2:

The Lord is come from Sina[i]...on his right hand his angels with him.

While the verses at Exodus 23 don't claim that the angel leading and guarding the Hebrews is bringing the Mosaic Law, the ones added to the Greek LXX reading seem to be influenced by Jewish Oral Tradition that reshaped the Hebrew text (Sinai is where the Law came from):

God came from Sinai...Lightning flashing at them from God's right.--RJPS 2023, from the Masoretic Text.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

PioneerSchmioneer

Luke 22:37 is a quote of Isaiah 53:12, not of a non-canonical text:

"He hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked."--Douay-Rheims Version.

"He poured out His life unto death, And was counted with wrongdoers. "--New American Standard.

"He poured out himself to death and was numbered with the transgressors."--NRSVue.

The Suffering Servant Oracles, again, are Israel, enslaved to Babylon, when the Jews once believed in a "suffering-sign-of-God's-displeasure" theology that no longer exists. These were applied to Jesus (and some tried to apply them to the failure of Bar Kokhba) via retrofitting to try to make sense of what happened to these two great figures of history since neither were supposed to fail in death.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

PioneerSchmioneer

If there really was such a view as a "suffering messiah" in Judaism, then why would Peter tell Jesus immediately after identifying him as the Messiah and the Son of God, that it was impossible for him to suffer?--Matthew 16:13-23.

It is not possible that such a view was known among Jesus' followers since on the walk to Emmaus Jesus says his disciples are foolish for not believing his earlier teachings that the Messiah was going to suffer before entering into glory based on what the Hebrew Scriptures taught-- not from other obscure texts to which no references are ever made.--Luke 24:25-27, 32.

Jesus later reiterated that his Messianic role was something far different than the Jews expected, including a salvific work that would save the Gentiles--including a work of proclaiming this news to them, and that this was what was the real message found in the Jewish Scriptures was all about. --Luke 24:44-49.

The Messianic role Jesus claimed for himself is supposed to be something unexpected, not something predicted. It was foreshadowed in the words of the Prophets, but not directly. No Jew could expect what Jesus was teaching, including an end to the literal monarchy of Israel.

Those who look for a "suffering messiah" in obscure texts also require literalism in texts due to personal beliefs. There are no literal texts that spell out any messianic doctrine, Jewish or Christian in the Hebrew Tanakh to begin with, making any secondary attempt with other texts problematic.

If these other texts are indeed about a suffering messiah, it would not matter. They did nothing to help Peter or the apostles of old, nor did Jesus claim anything about these in reference to himself as far as we know. The first followers of Jesus were shocked to see him arrested, tortured and die.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

PioneerSchmioneer

The concept of "suffering comes from [divine] disfavor" that Peacefulpete is making reference to in his previous post in reference to the Wisdom of Solomon has to do with a Jewish belief that is found in the Biblical Prophets.

It was abandoned by the Jews after the Third Jewish Revolt. But since Scripture writing did not continue, Christians don't tend to acknowledge that Jewish theology isn't static.

While it wasn't fully developed yet in the Diaspora, after the Holocaust a formal theological revision of the view was finally settled, namely that suffering is not a sign of divine disfavor. It is one of the few universal dogmatic views found throughout Jewish religion today

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

PioneerSchmioneer

The Wisdom of Solomon is a work found in the LXX, one of the books found in the Catholic canon.

The view that the texts from chapter 2 are "messianic" are a popular Catholic and Orthodox tradition that goes back to the Church Fathers but not further.

You can actually see this from looking up Wisdom 2:10-20 in practically any Catholic Bible since they are generally annotated with footnotes. You will usually find that this section is regarded as prophetic of Christ's passion, tied to Matthew 27:41-44 or one of the other accounts.

While the text is quite interesting, the author is merely stating that the wicked run around in groups of thugs, attacking people who faithfully observe the Mosaic Law and believe in God. It doesn't say anything about a messiah. It was written in 100 CE.

The book is not regarded as canonical by the Jews.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

PioneerSchmioneer

Peacefulpete:

You are talking specifically about Bavli Sanhendrin 98b from the Talmud (which many do) and the Qumran texts 4Q541 and 11QMelchizadek.

First, I was referencing the period of the writing of the Hebrew texts prior to the Maccabean Revolt and the subsequent Herodian rise to power that caused the Jews to begin to search their scriptures for the very first time as they founded and would start to develop their Messianic theology. I was not talking about the theology that would develop later into writings like the Syblline Oracles, the Gemara, the Midrash, and subsequently the Talmud.

By the time Bavli San. 98b was composed, it was about 600 CE, a very long time after Isaiah was composed and the concept of the Jewish concept of the Messiah was matured. It is not claiming that the Jews believe in a suffering messianic figure (as the Christians did by this point in history). A lot of Christians tend to mistake that this text is discussing this. It would be very illogical if it did this very late in competition with Christianity.

And while 4Q541 and 11QMelchizadek are quite interesting, neither say anything about a "messianic figure." These texts, like the Book of Daniel, were written by the Hasmoneans/Maccabees, and are fragments of (like Daniel) an apocalyptic text (not a prophecy). Since they were priests, of the line of Levi, they were also ruiling as kings, and thus they saw themselves as prefigured by Melchizedek. 4Q541 highlights one of their rulers, priests, and or Judas Maccabeus in the text.

21

2nd Isaiah 49:6

by peacefulpete in

6 and he said, it is too small a thing that thou shouldest be servant to me to raise up the sons of jacob, and to bring back the netzurei yisroel (preserved of israel,); i will also give thee for ohr goyim, that thou mayest be my yeshuah unto the ketzeh ha’aretz.. 2nd isaiah, actually an anonymous prophet at the time of cyrus, did his best to inspire and hearten his fellow countrymen.

many judahites had lost hope and even lost faith.

the explanations offered by previous prophets, namely that their own sins had resulted in their situation, were not adequate nor convincing.

PioneerSchmioneer

raymond frantz wrote:

The 70 weeks prophesy of Daniel started with the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem and entered its last week in 29AD , all Jews at the time based on that prophesy alone anticipated the Messiah.If not Jesus who was then the Messiah.

A common teaching among Jehovah's Witnesses with some in American Fundamentalism also favoring this approach, it is actually not a teaching found in the majority of Christianity.

The Book of Daniel is in the Writings (Ketuvim) instead of being found among the writings of the Prophets (Nevi'im). This is due to the fact that it is an apocalypse (a genre of Jewish writing that inspires hope for divine intervention in current events going on during the author's political and world history), which was during the period of Antiochus IV Epiphanes' persecution of the Jews and the Maccabean Revolt (c. 167 CE).

Apocalypse attempts to encourage the Jews facing persecution by employing prophetic tropes that encourage divine retribution for injustices being suffered. For example, the oft misused (or abused) tree dream of Daniel chapter 4 (by the Watchtower) is actually a type of commentary towards the Seleucid ruler, claiming that Judas Maccabeus (whose name meant "the hammer") would strike him down, and because something similar happened to Nabonidus, the last king of Babylon (as recorded in the Prayer of Nabonidus, 4Q242). The Jews believed God brought judgment upon Nabonidus, and so, as an apocalypse does, used a mixture of motifs, historical figures and prophetic tropes to "encode" a judgement for Antiochus.

Before the discussion of the 70 weeks, the author of Daniel actually gives the setting for what is being spoken of. Instead of being a prophecy about a coming "messiah," or being set for the far future, the events have to do with the threat of Hellenization that the Jews were facing at the time that started with the mark of the Greeks. Daniel sets the events for the "70 weeks" following the death Alexander the Great and the time period where his four generals divide his territory among themselves.--Daniel chapter 7.

Chapter 8 talks about the rise of the Seleucid kingdom and how under Antiochus the offerings in the Temple were halted. (Vss 11-12) The author explains how long until the oppression ends: 3 and a half years. (Vss 13-14) This appears to be a series of redactions, after the fact, and not a prediction.

They continue until the "70 weeks" with the "vision"--claiming that the Maccabees. victory was by divine hand. (Daniel 9:24-27) The players are Cyrus, sponsoring the restoration of Jerusalem, the "anointed" in verse 25 is Joshua the high priest (or possibly even Zerubbabel).--Zec 4:14; see also Ezra 2:2; 3:2; Hag 1:12-14)

The other "anointed" in verse 26 was the high priest Onias III who was murdered in 171 BCE.--2 Macc 4:16. And "the prince" is Antiochus Epiphanes. And the "covenant" of verse 27 is the one mentioned at 1 Macc 1:11 between Antiochus, Jason the high priest and the Judean upper class.

See The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha, NRSV 5th Edition; the Catholic Study Bible, NABRE, Third Edition, Oxford, and The SBL Study Bible, NRSV Update Edition, Including Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical Books, HarperCollins.