pomegranate

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Posts by pomegranate

• 
  126

  adam & eve

  by gotcha in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does anyone here take the creation story literally?

  if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

  if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

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  pomegranate

  I agree with some things. Most agreement for me comes in The First Main Point of Doctrine of Dordt. 2,3 and 4 Main Point I have lots of disagreement...

  The other 2 pages, lots of disagreemant.

  In a nutshell.
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  22

  Are the Gospel Stories Fictional?

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  there is abundant evidence that marks stories are fictional.

  in this post, i will explain how marks story of jesus miraculous feeding of the five thousand (mark 6:32-42) was copied from scripture.. at the beginning of his story, mark wants his readers to believe that his jesus is just as compassionate as the lord, so he introduces him as a person who was just as concerned as the lord is for people who are like sheep without a shepherd.

  the lord is my shepherd, i shall not be in want.

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  pomegranate

  willy_think
• 
  126

  adam & eve

  by gotcha in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does anyone here take the creation story literally?

  if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

  if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

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  pomegranate

  >>Do you make this up as you go, or do you actually put some thought into it? Look at a map. It is at least 100 miles from Jerusalem to Capernaum or the Sea of Galilee. If the Scribes were still in Jerusalem, how do you account for their quick arrival? Or, do you believe Jesus and the crowd were there for several days, while the Scribes were making the trip from Jerusalem?<<

  Jesus often stayed for days at one place. You have a problem with that? Also, explain the "family" arriving in the same place twice.

  >>The account actually says that when the group of people in Mark 3:21 heard of this, they left to take custody of him. Mark 3:22, which actually talks about the Scribes, seems to suggest that they were already there, having previously come down from Jerusalem.<<

  I disagree. The context is rather plain.

  >>It is obvious to most people from the context and also when observing basic rules of grammar that Mark is referring to two different groups of people in Mark 3:21 and Mark 3:22. Therefore you are wrong in your assumption that “his own (people)” could mean the “JEWISH SCRIBES”.<<

  Do pull the grammar card on me. You have no idea who you are dealing with.

  >>“His own (people)” suggests these individuals were closer to him (in a figurative sense) than your suggestion of the Scribes.<<

  His own people were the JEWS. Since he was the Christ, and they were the "chosen people" by him when in heaven, it doesn't get any closer than that.

  >>Your previous argument that this was a statement for protection is loser to the truth than your current fairy tale.<<

  Nice intellectual analysis.

  >>“His own (people)” went out to take custody of Him, neither because he blasphemed nor because he challenged their authority, but because they thought, "He has lost His senses". Again, this group of people is best explained, by the appearance of Jesus’ family in verse 31.<<

  I'd like to know how they arrive twice at the same place.

  >>In Mark 3:21, they went out to take custody of Him. In Mark 3:31, they arrive. They were there because they were concerned. They were there to “take custody of him”. They believed “he had lost his senses” because they did not know he was the “Christ”.<<

  They most certainly did. Good bye.
• 
  126

  adam & eve

  by gotcha in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does anyone here take the creation story literally?

  if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

  if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

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  pomegranate

  >>well almost you see If man is born dead in his sins and trespasses then he is dependent on the mercy of God to act first.<<

  Agreed.

  >>Remember man cannot chose God his free will is bound to his sinful inclination.<<

  Agreed.

  >>Romans 3:11 makes mans ability very clear. Remember man is completely dependant on God.<<

  Rom 3:11
  11 there is no one who understands,
  no one who seeks God.

  Agreed. As I have said, the shephed gathers the sheep, the sheep DO NOT seek the shepherd.

  >>John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
  And
  Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.<<

  Bingo. You seem to have much in discermant in this regard.

  Oh mankind, where is your will in relation to God? Dead.

  >>As you see GOD makes a man alive First Eph 2:4,5 and then afterward he(the sinner) immediately places his trust in Christ. To say it another way, God changes his affections as a result he seeks the things of God. God changes the heart.
  How else can you explain the passage?<<

  I cannot disagree with you.

  >>Eph 2:4,5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love where with he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)<<

  How can this be denied? How? It is like the writing on the wall is it not? Well, in fact I know why:

  Rom 11:7-9
  The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

  "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
  eyes so that they could not see
  and ears so that they could not hear,
  to this very day."

  >>You are absolutely correct…….<<

  May it be by God's will alone.
• 
  126

  adam & eve

  by gotcha in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does anyone here take the creation story literally?

  if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

  if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

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  pomegranate

  >>First you call me stupid then you claim that ANYONE doesn't mean ANYONE it means some. That makes no sense.<<

  If YOUR premise is true, then that means Satan the Devil can be saved.

  Is that YOUR position? That the "ANYONE" above is inclusive of Satan the Devil? Because IF you answer NO, then that ANYONE is NOT all encompassing and would also EXCLUDE demons, those that sinned against the Holy Spirit etc. Christ plainly said NO HOPE for those that sin against the Spirit, is your position that these too can be saved as one of the ANYONE's??

  Preposterous!

  >>Second, my grammer and my understanding of that sentence is accurate.<<

  It is NOT. LIAR. Subject followed by predicate. Go back to school.

  >>You can either accept that or not.<<

  I have evidence to justifiably say you are lying. That is not an insult, that is a FACT by the evidence OF SIMPLE GRAMMAR.

  >>And you cannot take the sentence out of context if you are attempting to give it an accurate meaning. The proper context is as I have described it.<<

  LIAR.

  >>Third, when you say that faith is planted at the time of the new birth, you are proving my point.<<

  No, you just agreed with mine, Man does NOT plant faith in himself, it is PLANTED by the possessor of the seed, and that is God. Man seed is only evil. Out of evil only come evil. Faith is good. Man is bad. Good cannot come out of bad unless something Good puts it within something bad. That is God.

  >>If a new birth is when the person accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior and that is when the faith is planted as you say, then that is what I have been saying all along.<<

  It is not. You have been denying faith is from God. Yet, you are now saying "when the faith is planted"...that takes it out of man's hands. Man plants NOTHING in himself. He is born crap. He can't change that. If the change is to come, it comes from God and God alone by the giving of a corrupt man the good faith to believe in Him.

  >>The person professes his faith, accepts the Lord as his Savior and he is indwelled with the Holy Spirit and born again. If it comes at the same time then we have no real argument.<<

  A man cannot profess faith until he has received faith. He does not receive faith UNTIL God decides to give it to him.

  >>Your view is a very extreme Calvinistic view of election and predestination if you believe that man haas no choice in the matter. That view is not Biblical.<<

  You wait and see. God's view is extreme. In a nutshell? God says love me or die.

  >>Fourth, I didn't say that destroy and upset were the same thing.<<

  But even if the word is upset the meaning is the same.

  (Emphasis added)

  >>I said the meaning of my argument is the same.<<

  You said WORD not argument. Do you really know what you are saying?

  >>Whether the faith is destoryed or upset, if it comes from God how can that be.<<

  Because the faith is dwelling within an imperfect vessel. Simple.

  >>Where in Matt. 14:31 does it say that Peter had been given only a little faith at that point so he was given more later? It doesn't. You have added that to the text.<<

  Well if Jesus said Peter had a little faith, I won't argue with him.

  >>Where in Matt. 15: 28 does it say that the women was given great faith by God? it doesn't. You are adding this to the text.<<

  Jesus said the faith was great I won't argue with him. How would HE know who had none, little or great if he didn't know? How else could he know? Unless the source was from HIM as PAUL many time says PLAINLY.

  >>Where does it say in Matt. 13:58 that they had no faith because none was given out. You are adding this to the text.<<

  Christ is the SOURCE of faith. You are denying Christ and his role as Savior and source of all that is good in a bad man. May God correct you, is that be His will. If not, so be it.

  >>If you have to support your argument by adding to the Bible, it is not based on the Bible.<<

  Go away Liar.
• 
  13

  Were the Gospel Writers Really Eyewitnesses?

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in defense of the inerrancy of the bible, many believers make the assertion that the gospel writers wrote about what they witnessed firsthand.

  let's consider the case of the gospel called "mark.

  " the writer of those jesus stories does not tell us he walked and talked with jesus, or that he witnessed any of the events he described, so why should we not believe that he was only reporting what someone else said happened, or perhaps what he thought should have happened to fulfill scripture?.

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  pomegranate

  If the infinitely wise and all-knowing god of the Bible exists, then that god obviously would have been smart enough to know that Bible readers would understand that Jesus was completely alone as he prayed at Gethsemane, so no one could have overhead his prayer.

  Daddy was watching from above. Doesn't take too much infinite wisdom and all knowingness to watch his Son does it?
• 
  126

  adam & eve

  by gotcha in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does anyone here take the creation story literally?

  if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

  if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

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  pomegranate

  >>>pomegranate,

  Are you saying regeneration(being made alive-born again) comes before faith and repentance. Eph. 2:1-5?<<

  More like the same time.

  >>Faith is a gift and man can't choose God Romans 3:10-11 unless enabled right? "No one comes to the son uless it is granted to him by the father"<<

  God chooses the man, man CANNOT choose God because man is born in a debased and corrupt vessel.

  >>Are you talking about "effectual calling" as the WCF discribes it.<<

  I have no idea what WCF is.

  >>Are you a CALVINIST? <<

  No, I am Christian. Thank you for the smiley.

  ---------------------
  >>We can engage in this debate without insults. Trust me, I do not need a grammer lesson. Your breakdown of Eph. 2:8 is simply wrong.<<

  Look sport, the insult is DIRECTLY from you. Claiming that FAITHS predicate is going with the subject of GRACE is a BIG FAT LIE. Don't LIE to me if you want to debate me. You do NOT know your GRAMMAR if yoou make such a claim. Grammar ALWAYS streams SUBJECT first then PREDICATE directly following. Which are RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER ALWAYS.

  Subject: Grace...... Predicate: you are saved
  Subject: Faith...... Predicate: not from yourselves
  Subject: Not Works.. Predicate: no one can boast.

  >>It is taken out of context and not a proper examination of the sentence.<<

  Well GRAMMAR child, show us how to properly examine this sentence by the CONSISTENT rules of SUBJECT and PREDICATE won't you??

  >>The context makes it clear that it is the grace of God that is the gift that saves through faith and not works.<<

  We do not need context when you are lying about the GRAMMAR. The GRAMMAR tells the TRUTH that faiths predicate is NOT FROM YOURSELVES. Context of the paragraph is NOT needed in this regard. Just you and a grammar lesson.

  >>The NIV uses the word destroy. But even if the word is upset the meaning is the same.<<

  Are you for real? Destroy and upset ARE NOT the same. If I upset you you can say with a straight face that I destroyed you? You are really beginning to show yourself as NOT ignorant, which education can fix, BUT STUPID. Why are you making such stupid claims such as upset and destroy mean the same thing?

  >>If faith before belief comes from God how can man upset it?<<

  See below, you answered your own question in my favor.

  >>It would be so firm that no man could undo it, unless you say that God gives out some weak faith and some strong faith.<<

  I don't say it, the Bible does, so your "unless" is satisfied:

  Christ speaking of Peter:

  Matt 14:31
  31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

  Peter only had been given a little faith at this point. Why did Peter doubt? Because he was ONLY given a little faith by God.

  Matt 15:28
  28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith!

  This woman was given great faith from God through Jesus.

  Luke 17:6
  6 He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed,

  Jesus described some having small faith, even that is powerful though.

  Matt 13:58
  because of their lack of faith.

  Even NONE given out.

  Small faith, great faith, little faith, lack of faith. There are varying amounts of faith, from NONE to Great given by God. It is MEASURED out according to a previous text I have shown you. A little here. A lot there. All in accord to FIGHTING EVIL where Satan is hitting his chosen hardest. And it can be increased according to God's will THROUGH his Son. See here:

  Luke 17:5
  5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

  The Apostles surely wouldn't make such a claim to Christ if it was not HE that could fulfill their request right? In order for Christ to increase their faith like they asked, WHERE WOULD THE FAITH INCREASE COME FROM? Obviously Christ himself since that's who they asked to increase their faith. Is this true? Does faith come through Jesus to all he chooses??

  Acts 3:16
  It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.

  The faith comes through Jesus from the Father to all HE chooses.

  >>I John 4:15 - If ANYONE acknowledges that Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God.<<

  Many will say Lord lord...they acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God. So ANYONE is NOT a blanket all encompassing anyone.

  It would be ANYONE with the TRUE FAITH that only Christ can give who acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God...Everyone else is a Lord Lorder, those who were not chosen

  The true faith comes from the Father through Christ, and the source of faith comes from NOWHERE else.

  >>We just have a fundamental difference of opinion. Your view is a very Calvinistic view of election that presupposes predestination.<<

  I believe it is more like what is the truth and what is not.

  My view is very Biblical and well supported in the Bible. Just as it is written.

  >>Romans 3:22 - This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christto ALL who believe.<<

  Righteousness comes after faith. It is credited to those who have been given faith. Faith is the first given, righteousness is then credited.

  >>If all men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God, than even those with the gift of faith before they believe in Christ are sinners. When does this change?<<

  Are you familiar with CREDIT? That's when that changes. Righteousness is given on CREDIT. Faith, belief, credit righteousness.

  Gen 15:6
  6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

  Ps 106:31
  31 This was credited to him as righteousness
  for endless generations to come.

  Ezek 18:20
  The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

  Rom 4:5
  5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

  Read the following VERY CAREFULLY:

  Rom 4:20-25
  20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,

  God gave faith to Abraham. When God gave Abraham faith, the faith beacme Abraham's.

  21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.

  Who was persuading Abraham? Not partially, BUT FULLY persuaded? GOD.

  22 This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness-for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

  Faith is given from the Father, through the Son to the ones He has chosen. That choosing was done before the heavens and the earth.

  >>When are they born again?<<

  When God chooses the time for another "Son" to be born. The re-birth is God's choice not man's. Just as you had NO say in your physical life and birth, you have NO say in your eternal life and birth. It is God's choice to pick who HE descides.

  >>What would be the need to be born again if the faith was always with them such that the Bible's promise of salvation applys to these people even if they are never born again?<<

  The faith WASN'T always with them. When that true faith is given out (you know, like a seed)...then the rebirth happens.

  >>If you think that being born again is not necessary for salvation then you deny the words of Jesus.<<

  You put words in my mouth. Being born again happens when the faith is planted.

  Look Father!!!...we have a new ADOPTED son through the rebirth.

  They will protect that new child to the DEATH. Unfortunately for those that may UPSET the new son, it will mean death for the upsetters not the Parents.
• 
  126

  adam & eve

  by gotcha in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does anyone here take the creation story literally?

  if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

  if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

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  pomegranate

  >>If faith comes from God,<<

  IF?? The Bible says plainly that faith indeed DOES come from God as a gift and you say IF?? Are you mad?

  >>would you agree that it could never be destroyed?<<

  The faith from God CANNOT be destroyed. It may be UPSET or shaken, but NOT destroyed. First, your Bible has rendered INCORRECTLY 2 Tim 2:18 - it should be rendered this way:

  2 Tim 2:18
  and they upset the faith of some
  NASU

  2 Tim 2:18
  and thus they upset the faith of some.
  NAS

  2 Tim 2:18-19
  They are upsetting the faith of some.
  RSV

  The above renderings are correct to the Greek. "Destroy" is incorrect. There is a Greek word for "destroy" and it is katakluo. That is NOT the Greek word used here. The Greek word used here is anatrepo, which is a compound word. Ana - means up, trepo - means turn or spin. So the real definition is upturn, upspin, upset. And, if you examine the context in verse 19, what does Paul say about the faith of these who have been upset by false teachers??

  19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation [FAITH, even though upset] stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

  The Lord knows who are his. Because He gave them the faith that is the solid foundation from God.

  >>See Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. It doesn't say that he rewards those to whom he has given faith.

  What? Can you read?? "And without faith it is impossible to please God,..." If God didn't give a man the faith, then the man CANNOT please God. Belief is teh extension of faith and faith is from God. Faith is first from God (Action), belief is next from man (reaction). Faith first, belief is second, just like your text has outlined.

  >>Eph 2:7-8 - The grace came from God, not the faith

  Do you really think there would be a question as to where GRACE comes from? Have you ever heard ANYONE say I am saved by the Grace of MYSELF?? NO. The expression is saved by the Grace of God. Grace is NOT what is in question, it is the source of faith.

  Also, you show yourself to be uneducated in SIMPLE sentence GRAMMAR. Did you flunk English? Tell you what, go get yourself a good elementary book on English GRAMMAR, brush up on it a bit, then get back to me and see if you can make your same claim with a straight face. OK?

  Well, let me give you clue:

  Eph 2:7-10
  8 (For it is by grace you have been saved,) {through faith-and this not from yourselves}, [it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.]

  Grace, saved
  faith, not your own
  gift, no one can boast

  I'd still get a grammar book if I were you.

  >>Rom 12: 3 is an introduction of spiritual gifts and work people are called to do by God. They are told not to look down on others work because the church is one body. Spirtual gifts are given by God. we have no disagreement about that.<<

  Faith is a spirtual gift. It is a gift from God. It can be upset. It cannot be destroyed. God's solid foundation [FAITH, even though upset] stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

  >>If you don't know you are chosen, how do you know you are God's slave?<<

  I didn't say I wasn't chosen. And I haven't said I am. Even if I knew it, I wouldn't say either way.

  You asked me how do I know who the chosen are. If I was chosen, outside of myself, I wouldn't know who they are.

  >>Maybe you are deluding yourself.<<

  Nice try. Maybe your not chosen.

  >>You have no assurance of salvation at all, because if God didn't pick you, all your faith is in vain.<<

  The chosen have all the assurance in the world. It's people like you that deny faith being from God that have built their house on the sand. I say FAITH is from God as much as MY LIFE is from God.

  >>or are you saying that everyone who has faith has already been picked.<<

  I never said anything of the sort. The end will come when the full number has been fulfilled. That number obviously isn't filled yet.

  >>What about those who had faith at one point but now don't?<

  I can't judge another man's faith. God judges what is true faith and not.

  >>Did God give that faith and then take it away?<<

  Show me.
• 
  13

  Were the Gospel Writers Really Eyewitnesses?

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in defense of the inerrancy of the bible, many believers make the assertion that the gospel writers wrote about what they witnessed firsthand.

  let's consider the case of the gospel called "mark.

  " the writer of those jesus stories does not tell us he walked and talked with jesus, or that he witnessed any of the events he described, so why should we not believe that he was only reporting what someone else said happened, or perhaps what he thought should have happened to fulfill scripture?.

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  pomegranate

  I guess God is SOOoooo powerful and whizzer kewl in his communicating to men, that He must have given Mark the info Himself.

  Either God did it or Mark is lying like you said.

  I'll go with the former, because the Father in heaven was a WITNESS to Jesus.

  John 8:17-18
  18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
• 
  126

  adam & eve

  by gotcha in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does anyone here take the creation story literally?

  if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

  if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

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• 

  pomegranate

  >>Are you saying that God will decide who will have faith and who won't?<<

  No. I am not saying that, the Bible PLAINLY says that. FAITH IS A GIFT FROM GOD. It is NOT from you, it is NOT in you UNLESS GOD puts it there Himself. Faith is a GIFT FROM GOD:

  Eph 2:7-8
  8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-

  Do you comprehend what was just said above? THROUGH FAITH-and this is NOT from yourselves, IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD. Faith is a GIFT from God, it is not FROM INSIDE YOU. You are born 100% BAD. A Bad tree cannot produce good fruit. YOU cannot produce ANYTHING good on your own. God puts the good in you (like grafting), because you (and I) are bound to bad.

  Faith is even APPORTIONED and measured out according to the way God sees fit to whoever he decides:

  Rom 12:3
  Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

  "In accordance with the measure of faith GOD HAS GIVEN YOU." This says God gives out faith. That certainly goes along with MY understanding that it is God who chooses the man. God chooses to give faith to the men He wants. Go re-read Romans 9 now. God is the master. We are the slaves. The master chooses the slave, right?

  More proof? How about fruitage of the spirit? If faith was from man, faith would be fruitage of the man, right? Faith IS NOT the fruitage of man, it is the fruitage of God:

  Gal 5:22
  22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

  Faith comes from God as a GIFT, measures out, as a fruitage of HIMSELF placed inside THOSE HE CHOOSES so that they may BELIEVE that he exists and can save them by way of his sacrificed Son. Faith first, believing second. Faith is from God and NO OTHER SOURCE.

  >>So that a person who hears the Gospel, God will decide if that person will believe it or not? That is a narrow view of election and denies that Jesus died on the cross for all.<<

  You better come up with a better counter than that. The scriptures I have shown undermine you totally and they ARE NOT out of context.

  >>Free will started in Genisis when God gave the direction to Adam to eat from all trees but one.<<

  Did God tell Adam to CHOOSE? Or did God COMMAND Adam NOT to do something?

  Gen 2:16-17
  16 And the LORD God COMMANDED the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

  A COMMAND is not a choice! A COMMAND IS A LAW!

  If God wanted Adam to CHOOSE, he would have said Adam, pick between the tree of LIFE or this tree that gives death. Did God give Adam the CHOICE to eat from EITHER TREE? NO HE DID NOT! Go reread your Bible story. The tree of LIFE was not a choice for Adam. Adam had NO CHOICE. HE WAS GIVEN A COMMAND not to eat NOT A CHOICE between life and death.

  >>He was free to chose to follow God's direction or not.<<

  He was NOT free to choose. HE DIED. DEATH is not freedom. Death is prison. Forever. Death is a penalty for breaking God's COMMAND of which God did NOT give him that freedom, SATAN gave Adam that freedom. The option to defy God is NOT GOD'S CHOICE. It was Satan's.

  >>He chose not to.<<

  He broke the LAW.

  >>That is the same as believing or not believing in Christ.<<

  It is NOT.

  >>We are free to believe or not.<<

  LAW breakers are free to break laws. If you want the freedom to break God's Law, God will use His Law against you.

  >> If we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit to dwell within us and increase our faith. But the intital choice is ours to make.<<

  God gives out the faith friend. Now what?

  >>Look at Jesus' words to the blind and mute in Matthew 9:28 - He asks them "Do you believe that I am able to do this? They respond yes they believe. He says " According to your faith will it be done to you"<<

  The faith that it could happen came from God. This text does not defy that truth. Faith is from God.

  >>The same is true for our salvation. It starts with our belief in Christ as our savior.<<

  No. It starts with faith being given from God. Then one can believe after God gives the faith. Believing can't happen unless one has faith first.

  >> Once that door is opened God takes over from there.<<

  God opens the door, not man.

  >>Does God have to wait for our belief?<<

  Your belief isn't going to happen unless He gives you faith.

  >>Of course not. He is all powerful. But he has given us the choice to believe or not. That is what we do. Than through our faith we our saved.<<

  Better brush up on where faith comes from. Because faith is from God and ONLY God as the texts I showed you clearly support. That means every believer is chosen and predestined by God the Great Shepherd, to live with Him because that's the way He wants it.

  >>Your definition of election has been descibed as follows: The traditional definition avers that election is God's act of choosing some persons for salvation and other persons for damnation. Do you agree?<<

  God says, I will have mercy on whom I shall have mercy, and I shall harned whom I shall harden."

  In a nutshell? I do what I want. Love me or die. PS. I'll choose the ones that I want to love me. They will obey my voice. They will live with me forever. Slave for LOVE, or slave for DEATH. To me, there is no CHOICE. That's the WAY I want it. I want God to choose for me. And He will. Forever. That will repel most people, because that means they aren't free to choose. Guess what??? Being God's slave is WAY better than being a slave to Satan.

  I will be God's slave ANYDAY 24/7/365 into eternity.

  >>My belief is as follows: God's grace has made salvation possible and in establishing a covenant relationship with all who believe. It centers on Christ's provisions of salvation rather than human destiny. I take it you would not agree.<<

  Your belief isn't founded on the source of true faith now is it.