if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".
it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.
how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?
Humans evolved as social beings. Therefore they are all highly sussceptible to group pressure. No one is immune or free of their milieu. Families, fraternal organizations, gangs, corporations, religious organizations, nations, military are all effective users of what is erroneously called "mind-control" .
This is more anti-jw propaganda. There are pressures on this forum to conform to a certain viewpoint, too.
the sept. 8, 03 awake contains an article about a disaster in ecuador.. on page 14 it says, regarding witness volunteer efforts, "by saturday evening,.
approximately 200 volunteers from local congregations had sealed the windows of 91. witness homes.
many non-witnesses also benefited.
Metatron:
You are mixing some things up here. There is a difference between an individual promoting HIMSELF and an organization speaking about their good works.
However, I think JW's need to learn as an ORGANIZATION the meaning of the verses prior to the ones you quoted Matt 5:43-47
i have personally had experience with this.
a long time friend committed suicide because of her husband and the problems they were having.
he abused her and ended up leaving her, the elders wouldn't help out much stating that it was a marital problem.. she couldn't cope with him leaving, she was extremely dependant on him, she felt the only way out was suicide.
The name of this thread is "Suicide and JW's"
The implication of this heading is that there is a connection between the two. Others felt that way too. Here are a few of the comments I read before posting.
mostly as a result of his treatment by the elders.
The correlation in this org is so great – that it blows my (non-JW) wife’ mind.
I think the suicide incidence among dubs would be a startling statistic. I am aware of 3. It would be good if we could start a database and keep a record. I am sure there would be some common elements to the experiences. I think the WTs gets away with a lot here.
Their cure for everything is: Get more self indoctrinated. No feelings for people in extreme pain.
The Society never helps anyone with their problems.. They just make it worse with all of the guilt-trips they put on you..
This is a rampant problem in the organization.
. It is amazing how this is so prevalent and yet they advertise that they are the happiest people on the fast of the earth. If that is happiness...give me the opposite. ......................................
To me the WT is like a mother who eats her own children.
I still say that is garbage. I don't regret in the least presenting a rebuttal to non-sense. I sympathize with the feelings of loss that suicide grievers feel. But if guilt is such a bad thing - don't pass it along by playing the blame-game.
You all can go to hell.
today in thailand a man was arrested by authorities there for attempting to sell radioactive material to an undercover officer.
he had a fairly large amount of cesium 137 ... some really cool stuff.. when i worked in the nuke industry, cesium 137 was a waste by-product contained in many of the tank farms at hanford.
exposure to it can kill you.
Maybe its time for some 60 year old american pilot with terminal prostate cancer to hijack an Egyptian Jet and slam it into Mecca.
There is no end to terrorism.
The Chechens told the Russians that the only part of Chechnya they can occupy is the ground under their feet.
Amercians are experiencing the same thing in Iraq.
Humans are doomed if help doesn't come from the sky.
i have personally had experience with this.
a long time friend committed suicide because of her husband and the problems they were having.
he abused her and ended up leaving her, the elders wouldn't help out much stating that it was a marital problem.. she couldn't cope with him leaving, she was extremely dependant on him, she felt the only way out was suicide.
Here is my very first post to this forum two years ago:
There is a very subtle problem with being raised as a JW. From my earliest years I was told I would never die or grow old. This is more than enough to make up for NO SANTA NO EASTER BUNNY NO TOOTH FAIRY NO BIRTHDAYS ETC> Had it been true it would have been amazingly wonderful. But at the very core of my experience is a child who was lied to. A child whose parents have died. A child who is profoundly disappointed.
People who have come into the organization after childhood were raised on a much more realistic promise. At the core of their experience they learned to accept death as inevitable. True, I know intellectually that death awaits all but at my core is still the oldest neuro-chemical pathways in my brain that reminds me that all that I was promised is now a lie. I have learned to be aware of this tendency. I will never overcome that reflexive let-down but I can manage it by knowing it will be there to make me sad - until the day I die.
Those who have been raised in this organization need to be aware of this tendency. Especially, counselors and mental health practitioners need to know of this unique syndrome of those raised as JW's. I think it predisposes certain people to suicide.
I used to believe that. But I don't think it is proveable. It makes a "weak" case. It isn't external things that cause people to commit suicide. It's their irrational thinking that mediates such extreme behavior. If you say that external events "cause" suicide you are justifying it. You are opening the door to self-murder as a rational option if "things" - "external things" get hard enough. It could also make you think in a very self-threatening way that: "Things are so terrible. In fact they are terrible enough for me to kill myself ".
To avoid suicide it is better to realize that a person has to take responsibility for their own foolish behavior.
i just wanted to say hi to the group here.. been baptized for 15 years now.
my wife has been baptized for a little less than that time period.. been an aux poi., reg pio, ms. wife is a reg pio currently.
now im just a lowly publisher :d. have had many doubts over the years on small matters.
Winston:
Get a good book on logic. You weren't taught logic by the JW's. And you won't hear much here that is logical. Mostly you will hear "bad-mouthing". Bad-mouthing is meant to relieve personal tension but it doesn't achieve anything.
There are some real gems that have been posted on line that refute JW teachings. You may have to go to the earlier archives. Many of these excellent posters have abandoned these forums because they were honing their skills at sorting out the TRUTH from the "truth". They didn't want to get involved in the endless sniping that goes on.
Some like Farkel, Focus, posted some really excellent stuff. (There are a few still attacking JW doctrine) but their efforts don't get much attention.
i have personally had experience with this.
a long time friend committed suicide because of her husband and the problems they were having.
he abused her and ended up leaving her, the elders wouldn't help out much stating that it was a marital problem.. she couldn't cope with him leaving, she was extremely dependant on him, she felt the only way out was suicide.
Nina:
So your answer to my request for factual numbers is just more conjecture?
How many suicides do you think JW's prevent? There are no facts for that either - only anecdotal evidence. In my 55 years of association with JW's I only knew of 4 suicides. Male 35 shot himself. Male 47 shot himself. Male early 30's gassed himself. Young girl 15 - hung herself. That's in a circuit of about 2000. That would translate into a suicide rate of 4 per 100,000 people per year. That is lower than the 19 per 100,000 per year for the USA.
Now it may be that I didn't know of other suicides. None of these were in my congregation. The news just travels. So maybe I just heard 25 percent of the actual cases. That still wouldn't make the JW suicide rate any worse than the general population.
So without factual data you cannot make valid claims about any causal relationship between JW's and suicide.
Mourn for the victims of self-murder. Extend sympathy toward the families that have lost loved ones. But don't fabricate blame on organizations without facts.
i have personally had experience with this.
a long time friend committed suicide because of her husband and the problems they were having.
he abused her and ended up leaving her, the elders wouldn't help out much stating that it was a marital problem.. she couldn't cope with him leaving, she was extremely dependant on him, she felt the only way out was suicide.
Laryynbabies:
I love confused incoherent rebuttals.
You, in my opinion, are blind to the facts
Do you see the self-contradiction in this statement?
If I am "blind to the facts" then its not an opinion any more. If you have "facts" that I am blind to - give them. My assertion is that since you don't have "facts" you shouldn't be blaming JW's for people who kill themselves. That's kind of like a recent Watchtower claim that certain "fantasy games" Dungeons & Dragons, Everquest etc. have caused people to murder themselves. That's garbage too!!!
What would I consider "facts"? Usually in a social science setting you give data ie. suicide rate per unit of population. Then you defend your population selection by explaining how it is representative of the whole.
If you are comparing one group with another you also need to explain the significance of the difference if there is indeed a difference.
This is like the claims that there are "actually" more cases of molestation among JW's than the population in general. That's garbage because there is no hard research on the subject.
Too bad that you are upset. But you ought to learn the language of truth even if you've spent years in an organization you feel didn't teach you that language.
i have personally had experience with this.
a long time friend committed suicide because of her husband and the problems they were having.
he abused her and ended up leaving her, the elders wouldn't help out much stating that it was a marital problem.. she couldn't cope with him leaving, she was extremely dependant on him, she felt the only way out was suicide.
Once again this forum chooses the low road of ignorance. Such garbage.
What do you know about suicide statistics? Do you actually know that the suicide rate among JW's is higher than the general population. You can't prove that because there would be no reliable source for such information. Why do Finnish people have such a high suicide rate? Why is it higher for men than women? Why is it the greatest cause of death of young people next to automobile accidents?
Blaming suicide on religion or family or government or schools etc. is very irresponsible. Quite often families of suicide victims blame themselves.
Quit the blame game. It accomplished nothing. What about the cases where people were going to commit suicide but didn't because of being a JW.
People on this forum have developed a philosophy that it doesn't matter what you say as long as you can spin it to put JW's in the worst possilbe light. That is bigotry of the worst sort.
No one who is lurking can take discussions like this seriously.
now i am in england, so first ill explain why i am criticising america and not my own country.
america is taking over the world.
this is a fact.
Americans are what the British would be if they had a bigger island separated for 200 years by two great oceans.
