Posts by proplog2

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

proplog2

Ros:
What a perfectly horrible analogy!!!

You said:

"Consider this analogy:
IMO, the Government not only tolerates, but in some instances promulgates bad things. Look at some of the atrocities in war! Criminals of heinous crimes not prosecuted on irrelevant technicalities, etc. I don't understand why the Government does it or allows it, but its the boss, so I have to follow the rules, whether I understand or like them or not. Most people think that basically, the Government has our best interests at heart, even though they don't always understand or agree with the process."

Do I need to point out the fallacies in your statements:

"SINCE governments have the right to do "evil" things THEREFORE we must go along with it"

Do governments have the "right" to do bad? And if they do "evil" is there nothing we can do about it?

The whole point is that Jehovah watches little kids die in fires every day and he doesn't prevent it. Jehovah watches the innocent get killed every hour and he never puts up a simple shield. One of the responsibilites of citizenship is to do what you can to prevent crime and injustice. If there is a God he is a bad citizen of the universe.

Better to believe that such an incorrigible entity doesn't exist.

19

Why many do not hear the holy spirit...

by kes152 in

jw
friends

"a man had two sons.. he went up to the first son and asked him, "son, go please and bring in my sheep from the pasture.

for it is getting dark and it would be dangerous to leave them out at night.".

so the son goes out and brings in the flock, because his heart was on obeying his father and he wanted to care about the same things his father cared about.

proplog2

I know why I don't "hear" god/spirit. It's because he doesn't talk into the ears he gave me to detect "sound" in a "language" he gave mankind so they can communicate. If he's using some agent he ought to give them a few miraculous tricks to perform so you can be a little more sure that the person who claims to hear god isn't just the common variety schizophrenic.

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

proplog2

Ros: You seem to like this theme. I think you are a border line atheist/agnostic/skeptic.

It is true that the existence of evil doesn't prove God doesn't exist. It just proves that if there is a God he tolerates and observes horrendous unspeakable acts and fails to intervene to prevent evil.

It is better to believe God doesn't exist then to believe that the greatest power in the universe allows evil deeds to be performed because he wants to a< Make a name for himself b< Teach humans moral urgency c<Build human virtue.

I am not an atheist because I want to be. I would be thrilled with the slightest manifestation. How about that wool - thing. Put some wool out at night and if there is dew on the grass but not on the wool. Next night reverse the process. Dew on the wool but not on the grass. Even that would be better than nothing.

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

proplog2

One of the main reasons I value all those years of being misled is the fact that it made me aware of the value of logic. If you haven't gone through a life of "garbage thinking" you are most likely going to take logic for granted.

7

Arguing with JW's

by closer2fine in

jw
friends

can anyone recommend a book that point by point shuts down all of jw's beliefs?

my dad has all of the org's lessons memorized and i need something to help me stand up for myself.

i'm hoping the book will be recent & encompass the changes made (1914, voting, etc.).

proplog2

Do the same things JW's do. Tell them you will do a little research and then get back to them. Make sure you write down the argument as clearly as you can and have them verify that what you wrote down states the argument to their satisfaction. Try to put the argument down in a SINCE (premise) --THEREFORE (conclusion) format.

Here are some examples:

SINCE the only birthdays mentioned in the Bible were celebrated by pagans and involved murder THEREFORE it is wrong for Christians to celebrate birthdays.

SINCE Acts 15 says "abstain from blood" THEREFORE Christians ought to avoid the use of blood at all cost even their life.

Then come back on line and we'll get you some rebuttals.

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

proplog2

I don't think that an atheist is going to be affected one way or another by "born-agains". Even though I'm an atheist I enjoy watching them perform on TV. "I jest luv them suthun axcents". Open your BOBBLES please to...

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

proplog2

Hi Ros:

We've talked before. (So this is a return visit):

You Said:

"I will just point out that logic does not necessarily equal fact."

The word "necessarily" is not necessary. I would never make the claim that logic = fact. That is why I was very careful to mention that one's premise ought to be factual. Arguments are usually stated in a SINCE...THEREFORE format. The SINCE part is your premise. If your premise is wrong your conclusion is doomed.

Most of "logic" has to do with showing how a conclusion does not necessarily follow from some fact. But sometimes the problem is in the so-called "facts".

Atheists often repeat the statement "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". When you really understand that statement you will understand the Atheist conclusion. Humans aren't very good at logic. The brain evolved under circumstances that require quick judgement based on very little evidence. Some call this intuition. Intuition is "natural thinking". Intuition works fine in most circumstances because the payoff is immediate and requires little time wasted in figuring things out. Belief in GOD is intuitive. "All things are made by someone - there is therefore someone who made ALL things." After making that affirmation the ordinary hunter/gatherer can go back to hunting and gathering. Religion doesn't stop there. It starts saying you owe some percentage of your time, energy, money, ritual to please the MAKER. At that point intuition is no longer cost effective because you are not going to get a return on your investment. When you see that RELIGION doesn't work you start probing the premise.

Logic is for those times when intuition doesn't work.

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

proplog2

What drives some x-jw's to atheism? Logic!! A lifetime of being a JW dulls a persons Poop detector. It is very liberating to re-discover the principles of logic. Once you develop skills of identifying fallacies you see that the whole GOD idea is too sloppy to accept.

A premise should first and foremost be based on factual evidence. There is NO unambiguous evidence for the extraordinary claim that there is a God. If you skip over the lack of evidence problem you are swimming in muddy water.

Born agains don't turn me off anymore than JW's. They are all just noise in the machinery.

14

Is God Faithful?

by ticatoo in

jw
friends

god is by definition all knowing.

as an omniscient being, what is there that would require faith on god's part?.

god tells us in the bible to be like him... "be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect".. .

proplog2

God is a totally incoherent idea. No such "person" could possibly exist. An all knowing god would be unconscious, experiencing an everlasting dreamless sleep.

The only minds we know about are embodied. If you have all knowledge of all eternity you have no need to deliberate, to cogitate, to think, to decide. You need no new information so you require no senses to take in information. God becomes as abstract as natural law itself.

13

Are you a hypocrite?

by Julie in

jw
friends

in light of the recent discussions on the death penalty in america i got to thinking.

i wonder about the commandment thou shalt not kill.

don't all christians subscribe to this?

proplog2

As an Atheist I see capital punishment as a left over from supersitious religion. Capital punishment is based on the religious notion of "free will".

Free will cannot be proven scientifically. Even if there were something called free will there is no objective way of determining whether a person who committs a dispicable act was doing so based on an exercise of free will.