proplog2

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Posts by proplog2

• 
  32

  Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

  by proplog2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is the short argument against the watchtower interpretation of babylon the great.

  (btg) .

  ) the watchtower claims that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion (wefr).

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  proplog2

  jgnat:

  I am surprised anyone paid attention to my coming & going.
• 
  32

  Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

  by proplog2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is the short argument against the watchtower interpretation of babylon the great.

  (btg) .

  ) the watchtower claims that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion (wefr).

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  proplog2

  gsx:

  In other words the past = the future. Perhaps, usually. But NOT necessarily.
• 
  32

  Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

  by proplog2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is the short argument against the watchtower interpretation of babylon the great.

  (btg) .

  ) the watchtower claims that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion (wefr).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  proplog2

  I want to address a fallacy that comes up when Bible Prophecy is discussed.

  It can be summed up in the following SINCE/THEREFORE format.

  SINCE there are so many interpretations of prophecy THEREFORE none of them are true or at best it is impossible to determine the correct interpretation.

  This is a conclusion that is born of frustration. This conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premise. The above fallacy is a strategy for exiting from discussions on Bible Prophecy. Prophecy is just like any other study. Rather than ridiculing a person for trying to interpret prophecy wouldn't it be better to review an interpretation critically, to reveal the interpreters error?

  Prophecies usually involve a sequence of events. If the predicted sequence doesn't come about then the interpretation is erroneous. If the method used to identify an important player can be shown to be in error this automatically voids the interpretation. On the other hand there are certain things that validate an interpretation. If you have a good fit for the identity of a couple of players and then these players interact in a way that fits the pattern of the prophecy THEN you have an interpretation that bears watching.

  In the case of Babylon The Great its primary descriptors refer to her great wealth. But it is not just wealthy. It is the wealthiest entity on the face of the earth. So wealthy that those involved in World Trade mourn her destruction because she single handedly accounted for their extraordinary prosperity. A significant number of the earths Kings benefitted from their special alliances with her. It simultaneously is described as having hegemony over all the Kings of the Earth. There is no other entity that fits this pattern than the United States. Go ahead pick one out of the history books if you can. If this referred to some previous entity then you would have to show that she was destroyed suddenly. You would then have the task of describing the Wild Beast that formed a confederacy with 10 kings who joined together to bring about this destruction. There simply is no entity since Revelation was written that fits. This certainly excludes the the scholars preferred choice of Rome as a fulfillment.

  Now consider the Wild Beast that eventually destroys Babylon the Great. It appeared as though slaughtered to death. Is it coincidental that the Soviet Union died? Does the revived Russia still have the nuclear power to destroy the USA? Does the revived Russia appear as a democratized capitalistic Lamb? Do you hear it talk a little bit like "the dragon"? Are they too desperate to lash out? Or is it a desperate beast that is likely to attack?

  Watchtower interpretations are hopelessly flawed. They say that the beast that received the sword-stroke was the Anglo American world power. When did the US & England ever EVER die?
  Why are the antagonists in Daniel the King of The North and King of The South? And then when we get to Revelation it's the Wild Beast & False Religion. They've got that wrong. The Wild Beast whose death-stroke is healed is Soviet Union/Russia. Babylon the Great is the USA/King of the South. Has the King of the South been pushing Russia? Gorbachev & Bush agreed that if the Germany's were allowed to reunite that Nato would not expand. Nato has pushed its membership right up to boarders of Russia. The USA has unilaterally withdrawn from the ABM treaty thereby voiding all previous arms agreements.

  The Watchtower mistranslates Revelation 17:11 to make it appear that the eighth king is made up of all the other kings ie the United Nations. They use the words "springs from" instead of "out of" when translating that scripture. Look at most translations and they translate "out of" either directly as "out of" or sometimes "one of". It should read "And the wild beast that was but is not it is also itself an eighth king but is "one of" the seven." Yes the eight king is "one of the seven". It is the Seventh - Russia- the head that appeared to be slaughtered but later revived. That is why it is described as the beast that was - is not - yet remains. Revived to life it acts as an eighth king. Soon the CIS consisting of Russia and 11 of its former Republics ( which never really received a Kingdom) will be transformed from a trade association into a military-political block to counter USA hegemony. Most likely this new construct will simultaneously involve Russia and Belarus uniting into one entity - leaving exactly 10 horns or republics to form a confederacy with Russia.

  This is the sequence of events as I SEE it. United States defeats Iraq. Leaders of Moslem countries speak against the USA to placate their masses but they capitulate to the Israelis and finally make peace. The USA economy takes off like a rocket. They announce "as Babylon the Great" "I sit a queen and shall never see mourning". Amidst this period of peaceful confidence a nuclear bomb explodes in New York City. Arab terrorist will be blamed. But the real culprit will be Putin who wants to level the playing field with the USA.

  The destruction of New York City will be the sign of the disgusting thing standing where it shouldn't. Jehovah's Witnesses will flee the USA/Babylon the Great/Modern Jerusalem. There are enought JW's in Mexico, South America to accomodate the witness refugees. Shortly thereafter it will be confirmed that indeed Russia destroyed New York City and not moslem terrorists. Russia will act pre-emptively to destroy the USA. Russia will then threaten nuclear destruction of any country that doesn't cooperate with Russia and it's New World Order.

  Many will become JW's at this point because they were the only survivors of the destruction of Babylon/USA. (Dan 11:34) What? There are people who survived the destruction of the USA. This will infuriate the Anti-Christ. He will demand that these people be delivered up for destruction. At that point Christ (or some such benevolent force for good (Aliens? Who knows?) takes over the planet. "And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away...And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One...and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them." Dan 7:26,27

  This is a brief overview. As you can see nothing is required of anyone until evidence is produced. Christians have to identify the "disgusting thing" that marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation before they can take flight. Of course it will help if you are a member of a world wide brotherhood.
• 
  32

  Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

  by proplog2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is the short argument against the watchtower interpretation of babylon the great.

  (btg) .

  ) the watchtower claims that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion (wefr).

  1. 
  2. 
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• 

  proplog2

  Scully:

  I was sincerely expecting something to happen by December 20. It was my long shot guess about the convergence of events at that time. So, I am happy to announce I am a certifiable "false prophet". But I still consider myself a "seer". Not in any mystical or inspired sense. There are feelers, doers, thinkers and SEErs. I would rather be a Looker.

  I have enjoyed my sabbatical for the last 3 months. I have been lured out of seclusion by some of the discussions of late.
• 
  32

  Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

  by proplog2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is the short argument against the watchtower interpretation of babylon the great.

  (btg) .

  ) the watchtower claims that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion (wefr).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  proplog2

  Francios:

  I admire your resolute stand. You most certainly won't be fooled again. I think you ought to look into the prophetic view Bush and his neoconservatives believe in. Bush is a religious nut. He thinks its his destiny to destroy Israel's enemies. He is careful not to condemn Islam but they fit the "born agains" scheme of the anti-christ.

  Prophecy affects us even if its bogus. If enough people believe it they may fullfil it.
• 
  32

  Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

  by proplog2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is the short argument against the watchtower interpretation of babylon the great.

  (btg) .

  ) the watchtower claims that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion (wefr).

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  2. 
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• 

  proplog2

  Bebu:

  Being steeped in the JW doctrine I too had difficulty explaining the blood-guilt of the USA. Here is how I handle this problem.

  Middle eastern writing uses a lot of hyperbole. For example Sadaam's "Mother of all battles statement". This statement doesn't mean that the battle Sadaam was talking about was the first battle ever. It meant that it would be so great that it would be the "definitive" battle.

  Compare Rev. 17:6 with Rev. 18:24 and then with Jeremiah 51:49

  Rev. 17:6 "And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus"

  Rev. 18:24 "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth."

  Jeremiah 51:49 "Not only was Babylon the cause for the slain ones of Israel to fall but also at Babylon the slain ones of all the earth have fallen"

  This is clearly hyperbole meant to make a strong case against the original Babylon and later Babylon The Great.

  The USA has made deals with ruling elites in various countries that caused real harm to the ordinary people. Batista, Somosa, Marcos, Shah of Iran, House of Saud etc.

  As Americans we perceive ourselves as being extremely generous because we provide foreign aid to so many countries. Unfortunately that aid has gone to ruling elites, usually minority factions, who use that money to subjugate the masses of people. Wealth from rubber, oil, bananas, sugar etc. has not been used to improve the lot of ordinary people. The ruling elites who are in "bed" with the US squander their money on their own lavish life style and supporting special police forces to keep their populations from revolting.

  The neutral stand of Christians sometimes is a protection. More often Christians are convenient targets to both sides because they refuse to take sides.
• 
  32

  Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

  by proplog2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is the short argument against the watchtower interpretation of babylon the great.

  (btg) .

  ) the watchtower claims that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion (wefr).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  proplog2

  This is the short argument against the Watchtower interpretation of Babylon the Great. (BTG)

  1.) The Watchtower claims that Babylon the Great is the World Empire of False Religion (WEFR). Since the Bible never specifically says that BTG is a religious entity this is an extraordinary claim and as such requires extraordinary evidence. (Similar to the Trinity situation. Since the word Trinity is not used in the Bible then the doctrine would have to be extraordinarily explicit.) Not only is Babylon The Great not referred to as a religious entity the 18th chapter of Revelation is lacking even ordinary religious identifiers ie. altars, priests, sacrifice, idols, incense etc.

  2.) The Watchtower uses a process of elimination argument as a key to uncovering the mystery of BTG's identity. Since the Kings of the Earth committed fornication with Babylon the Great the claim is advanced that she can't be a political entity. And since the Ship Captains and Traveling Merchants are mourning her destruction she can't be big business. While it is clearly the case that she is NOT of the class represented by Traveling Merchants it is not self-evident that she can't be of the same class represented by the Kings of the Earth. She is not of the same set as those with whom she has intercourse but she can be of the same class. As an example consider Michael the Archangel. Michael is in the same class as Seraphs and Cherubs. However, Michael, as the only Archangel, is in a separate set of the class called "angels". So Babylon the Great can be a political entity the same as all those with whom she fornicates. The thing that the Kings of the Earth have in common is that they have all fornicated with the entity identified as BTG. She in turn is in a set by herself. She is the only one that has fornicated with all the kings of the earth and she is also the only one who has an empire over all the kings of the earth.

  This point becomes clearer when we read of the fornication of Tyre, clearly a political entity. Isaiah 23:17

  "and she [Tyre] must ... commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth."

  3.) The Watchtower claims that WEFR commits fornication by meddling in politics. The Bible never refers to priests involving themselves in government activity as "fornication". In fact Jehovah originally set up Israel as a nation governed primarily by the priesthood. The King of Israel was generally anointed by means of a priest.

  4.) The spiritistic activities of BTG are believed by the Watchtower to be an absolute certification of the identity of BTG as a religious entity. However, in the case of Ninevah we have an example of a political whore described as a sorceress: Nahum 3:4

  "owing to the abundance of prostitution...a mistress of sorceries...ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries."

  5.) Finally, the Watchtower makes remarks about how rich WEFR is. In the Babylon the Great book even referring to WEFR as "doubtless...the richest organization on earth today. There is no need to even ask for proof of this absurd conclusion. It is worse than naive it is clearly void of any kind of thought. Religion, typically accounts for slightly less than 1% of the worlds economic activity. Hardly enough to cause wailing on the part of Ship Captains and Traveling merchants. What if you totaled up all the real property of the Worlds Religions. Then what? Should they sell it and tell people to hold onto their 1% contributions for a few years. Religion just isn't a big economic factor. If the Watchtower has some evidence to show that WEFR is a BIG enough factor to cause the Traveling Merchants and Ship Captains to mourn they haven't shared it with their readers.

  6.) If the end is imminent then Babylon the Great should be at its peak. Revelation 18:7,8

  "For in her heart she keeps saying, I sit a queen... that is why in one day her plagues will come."

  Only a very rich political entity with a rate of consumption that would enrich all the worlds traveling merchants and ship captains could fit the role of BTG. Since we are "supposed" to be close to the end and since the USA is simultaneously the richest and most powerful entity on Earth, - exercising hegemony over all the kingdoms of the earth - then it is clear that we had better be watching for the time when God's people must literally flee the geographical territory of the USA/BTG.

  So,it really isn't very complicated. JW's no doubt are emotionally attached to this Watchtower teaching in the same way some are attached to the Trinity. I know that to believe that BTG is the USA would require a major overhaul of Watchtower prophesy. I've done most of the work already. It can be proven:

  • Slaughtered head of beast at Rev 13 is USSR.
  • The two horned beast is a closer look at the revived head of the beast.
  • The Scarlet colored beast is not the UN but another look at the beast of Rev 13. It was, Is not (received deathstroke), yet IS (deathstroke healed)
  • The disgusting thing that causes desolation is not UN
  • The little Horn in Daniel is not the Anglo American world power but is the USSR.
  • The feet of clay and Iron is the USSR with its nationalities problem.
  • The successor to the Roman Empire is the Third Rome = Moscow or Russia and not Britain.
  • The King of the South is never heard from after the King of the North floods over because The USA/BTG is destroyed.
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  14

  Is the war in Iraq prophetic?

  by Rick_A in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  just wondering if anyone thinks this war has any implications for the future?

  does anyone know what will happen next?.

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  proplog2

  There is another way viewing the war in Iraq that may be more productive. While an event may not be specifically predicted it still may be "Biblically Significant".

  Is the war in Iraq Biblically Significant? I think it is. It further establishes the fact that the USA is Babylon The Great. The USA is arrogantly exercising its hegmony over the earth. It has a "kingodm over the kings of the earth". By threatening to withold "monetary" favors it has been trying to get customers to share in her fornication.
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  20

  What if the UN fell apart?

  by undercover in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the wts has incessently preached about the wild beast being the un and how the anglo-saxon world power of america-great britain was the force behind it.

  what if the un was to fold?

  looking at world events this weekend, i wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

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  proplog2

  NO IMAGE OF THE BEAST IN REVELATION CHAPTER 17

  The Watchtower says that the beast with seven heads and ten horns in Revelation Chapter 17 must be the image of the the two horned beast in Revelation Chapter 13.

  If you read Revelation 17 there is no mention of the "image of the beast." It simply speaks of a scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns. So how can the assertion be made that there is an identity between the "image of the beast" and the scarlet colored beast. Since it never mentions the "image of the beast" in Revelation 17 you can't make that claim.

  The Watchtower makes a simple error to arrive at this conclusion. Since the Scarlet Beast "looks like" the beast in Revelation 13 it is believed it is therefore "the image" of the Revelation 13 beast. But there is a simpler reason the beast of Revelation 17 looks like the beast of Revelation 13. It is because they both resemble their power source which is Satan the Devil who in Revelation 12:3 is described as having Seven heads and ten horns.

  Since Revelation 17 specifically calls the beast a "beast" we must assume that the beast is what it is named a "beast." Not the "image" of the beast. Because the beast of Revelation 13 and the beast of Revelation 17 are homologous in structure you can make a better case that the beast of Revelation 17 is the same as the beast of Revelation 13. Not only are they similar in structure but they both go through a similar cycle of death and rebirth.

  compare

  Revelation 13:3 "And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and ALL THE EARTH FOLLOWED THE WILD BEAST WITH ADMIRATION."

  Revelation 17:8 "And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those WHO DWELL ON THE EARTH WILL WONDER ADMIRINGLY."

  No mention here of an "IMAGE" of the beast.

  I can't defend the Watchtower interpretation on this point. Can anyone?
• 
  83

  What if the U.N doesn't find anything in Iraq?

  by kril in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it hit me a few days ago.

  what happens if the u.n. searchs iraq and they find nothing?

  i mean it's kind of scary to think what will happen to bush's job approval rating if that happens.

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  proplog2

  Shakita:

  If you spend a career investigating attrocities you will find them. It would be very noble if the US embarked on a program of liberating people from such things. However if you want to develop a world ruled by "law" it must be done under the auspices of some kind of general organization like the UN. At this stage of human development it doesn't appear that there is a consensus for this kind of project. The US could do a lot more good by taking the 100 billion dollars to fight Sadam and address health care problems that are killing people by the millions.

  The US thought nothing of terrorizing Japan's homeland with two atomic bombs. But I guess its better to kill their civilians than to have your soldiers die.