Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

by proplog2 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    This is the short argument against the Watchtower interpretation of Babylon the Great. (BTG)

    1.) The Watchtower claims that Babylon the Great is the World Empire of False Religion (WEFR). Since the Bible never specifically says that BTG is a religious entity this is an extraordinary claim and as such requires extraordinary evidence. (Similar to the Trinity situation. Since the word Trinity is not used in the Bible then the doctrine would have to be extraordinarily explicit.) Not only is Babylon The Great not referred to as a religious entity the 18th chapter of Revelation is lacking even ordinary religious identifiers ie. altars, priests, sacrifice, idols, incense etc.

    2.) The Watchtower uses a process of elimination argument as a key to uncovering the mystery of BTG's identity. Since the Kings of the Earth committed fornication with Babylon the Great the claim is advanced that she can't be a political entity. And since the Ship Captains and Traveling Merchants are mourning her destruction she can't be big business. While it is clearly the case that she is NOT of the class represented by Traveling Merchants it is not self-evident that she can't be of the same class represented by the Kings of the Earth. She is not of the same set as those with whom she has intercourse but she can be of the same class. As an example consider Michael the Archangel. Michael is in the same class as Seraphs and Cherubs. However, Michael, as the only Archangel, is in a separate set of the class called "angels". So Babylon the Great can be a political entity the same as all those with whom she fornicates. The thing that the Kings of the Earth have in common is that they have all fornicated with the entity identified as BTG. She in turn is in a set by herself. She is the only one that has fornicated with all the kings of the earth and she is also the only one who has an empire over all the kings of the earth.

    This point becomes clearer when we read of the fornication of Tyre, clearly a political entity. Isaiah 23:17

    "and she [Tyre] must ... commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth."

    3.) The Watchtower claims that WEFR commits fornication by meddling in politics. The Bible never refers to priests involving themselves in government activity as "fornication". In fact Jehovah originally set up Israel as a nation governed primarily by the priesthood. The King of Israel was generally anointed by means of a priest.

    4.) The spiritistic activities of BTG are believed by the Watchtower to be an absolute certification of the identity of BTG as a religious entity. However, in the case of Ninevah we have an example of a political whore described as a sorceress: Nahum 3:4

    "owing to the abundance of prostitution...a mistress of sorceries...ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries."

    5.) Finally, the Watchtower makes remarks about how rich WEFR is. In the Babylon the Great book even referring to WEFR as "doubtless...the richest organization on earth today. There is no need to even ask for proof of this absurd conclusion. It is worse than naive it is clearly void of any kind of thought. Religion, typically accounts for slightly less than 1% of the worlds economic activity. Hardly enough to cause wailing on the part of Ship Captains and Traveling merchants. What if you totaled up all the real property of the Worlds Religions. Then what? Should they sell it and tell people to hold onto their 1% contributions for a few years. Religion just isn't a big economic factor. If the Watchtower has some evidence to show that WEFR is a BIG enough factor to cause the Traveling Merchants and Ship Captains to mourn they haven't shared it with their readers.

    6.) If the end is imminent then Babylon the Great should be at its peak. Revelation 18:7,8

    "For in her heart she keeps saying, I sit a queen... that is why in one day her plagues will come."

    Only a very rich political entity with a rate of consumption that would enrich all the worlds traveling merchants and ship captains could fit the role of BTG. Since we are "supposed" to be close to the end and since the USA is simultaneously the richest and most powerful entity on Earth, - exercising hegemony over all the kingdoms of the earth - then it is clear that we had better be watching for the time when God's people must literally flee the geographical territory of the USA/BTG.

    So,it really isn't very complicated. JW's no doubt are emotionally attached to this Watchtower teaching in the same way some are attached to the Trinity. I know that to believe that BTG is the USA would require a major overhaul of Watchtower prophesy. I've done most of the work already. It can be proven:

    • Slaughtered head of beast at Rev 13 is USSR.
    • The two horned beast is a closer look at the revived head of the beast.
    • The Scarlet colored beast is not the UN but another look at the beast of Rev 13. It was, Is not (received deathstroke), yet IS (deathstroke healed)
    • The disgusting thing that causes desolation is not UN
    • The little Horn in Daniel is not the Anglo American world power but is the USSR.
    • The feet of clay and Iron is the USSR with its nationalities problem.
    • The successor to the Roman Empire is the Third Rome = Moscow or Russia and not Britain.
    • The King of the South is never heard from after the King of the North floods over because The USA/BTG is destroyed.
  • Scully
    Scully

    Interesting post. I don't have anything to add or comments to make on the content.

    Just wanted to let you know that you had a few of us worried when you disappeared around the end of December. Glad to see you posting again.

    Love, Scully

  • nowisee
    nowisee

    s h i v e r s

  • heathen
    heathen

    To me babylon the great is the catholic church . Their church colors are purple and scarlet and as far as spirtistic practices I think the WT says this pertains to praying to saints to intervene .The catholic church used to have alot of power over the kings of europe and were called upon to crown them . As far as the merchants getting rich ,it could have something to do with all the crap they try to sell here in the US during christmas time.

  • bebu
    bebu

    REV 17:6 I saw that the woman (BTG) was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
    When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

    This verse is the one that makes it hard for me to accept that BTG is the USA. Can you show me that the USA, more than any other nation, qualifies this way? I'm not being rhetorical. Whenever I wonder to myself if the USA fills this description (due to its economic position), I always come up against this verse, and decide that, if it IS the USA, it isn't right now. But if the USA starts to massacre Christians, then yes, it looks more likely.

    I think that it is still too early to make calls on this. I remember reading that Kissinger, Nixon, Eisenhower, Hitler, Stalin, the Pope, etc., all being named the anti-christ in the past century. As time rolls on, people move on to the next political target.

    The past 100 years have brought so many changes, so fast. If the US has an economic slow-down, and another country picks up the pace and replaces the US in economic strength (yes, it can happen!), who's to say that it wouldn't be a country that has such strong communism, fascism, or anti-Christian zealotry that things really swing in a way we could never expect right now.

    There is persecution going on in Islamic countries against Christians and other non-Muslim citizens. It used to be that communism persecuted the most Christians world-wide. It is now Islam. Governmental policies of Islamic governments prohibit proseltyzation of Muslims. Some permit arrest and even execution of converts and their converters. I'm not trying to make anyone angry, and I recognize that sometimes Christians fight back! But I think that as some of these countries are growing richer and stronger, one of these is more likely, in the future, to fully typify BTG.

    I think that our tendency is so strong to just "figure it all out" with what's at hand, we can get close, but still get it wrong. 2+2=5 is not correct, but it is a more correct answer than 2+2=10. Even so, it is still not correct, and shouldn't be made dogma.

    BTW, who's collecting all the 2 cents that everyone here keeps giving out?

    bebu

  • greven
    greven

    The explanation of the WTBS will no doubt be proven just as wrong as all their other published works on revelation and ezechiel. At best they provide wishfull thinking.

    Besides the point: I think that the revelation has no bearing on the current situation but was a description of the situation when written. Romans being the opresser it had to be concealed in cryptic language and symbolic talk and maybe the consumation of a mushroom or two. To use this stuff to predict future events is as useful as using the prophesies of Nostradamus. They are so vague they can mean anything...

    Greven

  • Iron Eagle
  • Iron Eagle
    Iron Eagle

    Your explanation sounds like another that I have heard.

    I think that the Leviathon is the steam locomotive, and that Christ Jesus returned in 1874.....er, hold on , no I meant 1914 .... er , I meant invisibly .... he invisibly returned in 1914; thats right.

    Give me a whole week and a big bunch of magic mushrooms and I could come out with some kind of wild interpretation also. Maybe that was what was in that 'miracle wheat' Russell was feeding on.

    We could all interpret the bible to say whatever we wanted it to say; doesnt mean its any more correct than the next person.

    ' Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a prophet of God, but it is another thing to prove it. What does the record show ? ' Watchtower 1972, April 1.

  • Francois
    Francois

    When I pitched the witnesses, I pitched all their BTG and other imaginative crap along with them. Why reject the religion and then continue to pore over its arcana? That's like saying you really do believe it after all.

    I don't believe it. None of it. The JWs and all their arcana have no meaning in my life nor will they ever again.

    francois

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Francois: Nice work! The WTBS was onto something, in that Babylon obviously had a meaning to be discovered, but that's where their logic ended. For a couple of years now, I am starting to think that Babylon the Great is in fact the U.S.A! Here's why: 1. The US fornicates with every other government on a regular basis 2. The US government is bloodguilty in too many ways to mention 3. The US has had a hypnotic trance-like effect on mankind due to: a. everyone wants asylum in america b. everyone wants american products c. everyone wants american entertainment (music, movies, culture) d. everyone wants american money 4. The US is the most popular place in the world 5. Economies/merchants everywhere depend on the US economy 6. Technology and the global marketplace were built in the US Like Babylon, when the US empire falls, it will be a shock and surprise to the world. People will weep over the US, like Charlton Heston finding the head of the statue of liberty during the finale of Planet of the Apes. All empires fall, and it's just a matter of time for the US. Even Rome did not have enough tribute money to keep barbarians away.

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