Tula:
You DO understand that I don't believe in God.
So, I don't believe that the collection of writings called
the Bible is "Truth" or even "truth". I am interested in
the Biblical emphasis on change that emerges from catastrophic turmoil.
I am interested in the big picture NOT the nit-picking doctrinal disputes.
So your references to God choosing, or God reading hearts are kind of
red-herrings. But since you didn't know my orientation I can understand
why you bring that up.
The big mistake is the all or none approach to the Bible. People think
you have to believe ALL of it or NONE of it. I DO believe there are
some amazing sequences of events in the world that match prophetic sequences
in the Bible. I don't believe in the JW interpretation but I believe that
their misunderstandings are necessary. They are wrong for the right reasons.
I can easily disprove their belief that Babylon the Great is some world
empire of false religion . But, I think it is essential that they DON'T learn
the true identity of Babylon the Great (USA) until it is necessary for them to
get out of the USA. If they knew that Babylon the Great is the USA
they would have been prepared to leave the country anytime a major war would break out.
I am not saying that the JW organization is good or bad. It is no different than
any other organization. People are people. (Notice I didn't say people are imperfect)
But it has a unique structure and stated purpose that make it significant.
You have to look beyond the behavior of individuals and look at its overall structure.
Don't forget to look at the paradoxes too.
Why would an organization that seems committed to growth put so
many obstacles in the way of growth? Why disfellowship so many of
their members for ordinary human weaknesses. Why would they come up
with a doctrine like "no blood transfusions" that gives them so much
horrible publicity? Why the emphasis on door-to-door preaching when
they produce so few new members with that method? They could easily
accomplish as much by launching a sattelite like Pat Robertson.
Why so many meetings? If they wanted money they could cut out the
week-day activities and field service so their members could work over time
and pay a tithe.
Everything points to a structure that fits their main message - "the end is coming soon".
That was their message in 1879. That has been their message for over 120 years.
And they have built the organization into a wide network of exceptionally devoted members.
There are studies by the defense department defining the requirements of a
robust organization that can survive and function under extreme duress.
These are some of the factors they feel make up a group that can survive:
Communications: members have to be able to communicate - even without
electronic convenience. This requires a network of people who all know
each other and are close enough to physically communicate if necessary.
Trust: members have to have full trust in each other. Trust can
only be built up over time through close association.
You have to know that the members of your group will be willing
to make sacrifices for the groups success even in the face of
immense personal inconvenience or harm. Firehouse mentality. There
are other advantages for having emergency workers live together
besides being able to respond quickly.
Authority: Democratic processes don't work well in emergency situations.
You need "deciders" who can expect to be obeyed.
Redundancy: You need people who are prepared to step up and fill
in immediately when they have to.
I don't know of another organization on Earth that can compare to
JW's on these matters. Metatron mentioned the Mormons. Yes the
Mormons plan ahead for disaster too. But there may be a tendency to
rely too much on physical supplies of food etc. Everyone knows that if
the stores run out of food it may be time to raid some Mormon households.
Also, the Mormons are too committed to a physical location.
They will fight to the death to make sure no one takes Utah from them.
All I am saying is that at the point where your survival depends on it -
don't be too proud to go back.
proplog2
JoinedPosts by proplog2
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34
JW's Are The Key to Survival
by proplog2 inthis is an elaboration of a comment i made on gills post about the demise of jw's as the years pass.
gill suggested that humans have survived turmoil in the past.
but our world is different.
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proplog2
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34
JW's Are The Key to Survival
by proplog2 inthis is an elaboration of a comment i made on gills post about the demise of jw's as the years pass.
gill suggested that humans have survived turmoil in the past.
but our world is different.
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proplog2
Catbert: The question of "guns" or "swords" is an important point. Revelation 13:7-10 speaks about the revived wild beast that controls the whole earth and persecutes the "holy ones". And then it says something about the two possible strategies available to people at that time: 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones. The neutrality of JW's will keep them from lifting up a sword to defend some real estate. They would choose exile rather than compromise their stand for the Kingdom of the Heavens. Most likely, Mormons would die to hold onto Utah.
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34
JW's Are The Key to Survival
by proplog2 inthis is an elaboration of a comment i made on gills post about the demise of jw's as the years pass.
gill suggested that humans have survived turmoil in the past.
but our world is different.
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proplog2
I see I failed to edit out awakened07 full response. But the previous post was addressing awakened's issues.
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34
JW's Are The Key to Survival
by proplog2 inthis is an elaboration of a comment i made on gills post about the demise of jw's as the years pass.
gill suggested that humans have survived turmoil in the past.
but our world is different.
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proplog2
If the "shit really hits the fan" in thefuture, so much so that Witnesses globally lose contact with 'Mother',I think they will run around like headless chicken like all the rest.With no direct guidance from the org., I don't think they'll know whatto do. They will most likely gather in smaller groups, yes (book studygroups), but families and friends that are not JWs will do the same. Idon't see why non-JW individuals couldn't make it just fine under suchcircumstances either. The world would under the circumstances we'reprobably talking about become an anarchy, so large quantities of theaverage population may not follow their own government either(depending somewhat on the course of action of the government in thevarious countries) if such a situation arose.
It would be nice ifyou would say B when you've said A, by the way; "unseen entities"? Areyou talking about angels, aliens, secret brotherhood, what? If they are'the key to survival', do you mean they are the only key, and do yousuggest we should join them for this reason? Or do you mean they -among many similar groups - have the key to survival? What exactly are you "seeing" in the future?With no direct guidance from the org. I don't think they'll know what to do.
HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT! Compare other organizations to JW's. JW's go to meetings 3 days per week. They each know just about everyone by name. They know JW's that live close by. They know JW's in many different congregations. The congregations are kept to a size that compares with the group size of other primates. There is an optimum size for good group communication. There are established lines of authority at every level of the organization. They have all had experience communicating. They have been trained and drilled to expect worst case scenarios. One of the most important things is they expect the duration of difficult times to be of a limited time period. This one fact will enable them to put up with more hardship. They will be less prone to "go crazy" because their world has been turned upside down. They will be expecting that their deliverance is near. Others will think that it is every man for himself. Not being part of a close community (admittedly a meddling community) they will become despondent and paranoid.
families and friends that are not JWs will do the same. Idon't see why non-JW individuals couldn't make it just fine under suchcircumstances either.
With a complete break-down of infrastructures such as delivery systems for fuel and food it is extremely unlikely that small groups will be able to form ad hoc associations for mutual benefit. Other groups such as Mormons and Bahais may be able to hold together longer than other religions but they have fatal flaws such as nationalism and they lack a conceptual framework for understanding the context of what is happening.
What exactly are you "seeing" in the future?
I see the USA (Babylon the Great) destroyed. JW's will get out of Babylon/USA when they see the sign of the disgusting thing standing where it shouldn't. They will pool their resources and flee to other countries. They can do this because of their world-wide family. They don't realize that Babylon the Great is not false religion but a political entity namely the USA. But they will reach that conclusion and be able to act on it.
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A desperate time for JW as realisation inevitable dawns .....
by Gill inin time, slowly and inevitably, a lot of jws will realise that they have been conned.
they may deny it at first but eventually a substantial amount will discover that they have lost their lives, their talents and their potential to of all things, a book publishing company!.
so, what will their reactions be?
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proplog2
Gill: I started another thread to reply to your points.
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34
JW's Are The Key to Survival
by proplog2 inthis is an elaboration of a comment i made on gills post about the demise of jw's as the years pass.
gill suggested that humans have survived turmoil in the past.
but our world is different.
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proplog2
Nvrgnbk:
You ask: "Are you suggesting that we should go back, for our survival?"
I suggest keeping your options open. If something resembling the kind
of turmoil suggested in Daniel & Revelation occurs it may be time to reconnect.
Survival would be the ONLY reason for going back.
There even seems to be some references to people who survive by the skin of their teeth.
According to Matthew 24:15 the event that signals the impending Great Tribulation
is "the disgusting thing causing desolation standing in a holy place.
That refers to Daniel 11:31. And right after that Daniel says: (NIV)
32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant,
but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will
fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.
34 When they fall, they will receive a little help,
and many who are not sincere will join them.
35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined,
purified and made spotless until the time of the end,
for it will still come at the appointed time.
The people who know their God implies an organization of people
very close in their worship of their God. And in contrast to the
Watchtower the door is never absolutely closed otherwise the "not sincere"
ones would not be able to join.
This seems to be the lesson of Matthew 20 where those that work the 11th
hour get the same pay as those who worked in the heat of the day. -
34
JW's Are The Key to Survival
by proplog2 inthis is an elaboration of a comment i made on gills post about the demise of jw's as the years pass.
gill suggested that humans have survived turmoil in the past.
but our world is different.
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proplog2
Sorry here is reformatted version:
This is an elaboration of a comment I made on Gills post
about the demise of JW'S as the years pass. Gill suggested
that humans have survived turmoil in the past.
But our world is different.
Loners and small groups can't survive.
Strong communities survive.
By strong I mean they have to have a clear line of authority.
They must be committed to an ideal.
The word religion means to bind together.
That is the cultural/evolutionary function of religion.
What are Jehovah's Witnesses?
They are a group that believes that when the world
system breaks down that deliverance is close.
This is essential to survival.
Groups fall apart if they don't feel a solution is imminent.
They are a world-wide network with an almost military discipline
when it comes to following orders.
They believe in self-sacrifice. The blood doctrine has no basis in the scripture
but it is the perfect tool for cementing loyalty
by making everyone get used to taking a virtual death-oath of obedience.
They even have a kind of justice system - disfellowshipping etc. - to maintain order.
The organization has all the marks of a structure that has been
engineered (culture-formed) by some unseen entity/entities
(aliens or angels whatever you want to call them).
They have not just been about numbers.
Yes they keep track of growth but they could be a larger organization
if they were more flexible and tolerant.
As you know a small disciplined army can defend itself
better than a large undisciplined mass.
All of the wacky doctrines are mostly fences to draw a clear boundary.
It is a very selective boundary, but it is semi-permeable - flexible enough
to allow growth but not rigid enough to cause suffocation.
Doctrine is where most people make the mistake.
Doctrine is not important. What IS important is the structure.
You can't develop a survival organization over night.
It takes a long time to weave the tapestry of a tight-knit association.
You need connections and trust between people over time.
You need a shared understanding of authority and goals.
You need an organization that is international in scope
because upheaval often means re-location.
It easily takes 120 years to produce a survival group of 6 million.
Central to this has been the theme that "the end is coming" .
False dates were essential to accomplishing this.
No one is going to make the sacrifices necessary if they don't
think their immediate survival is at stake.
Why do I say that there are some unseen entities involved?
Because there never was a master plan to the organization.
They have had only one idea which was also shared by the early Christians
- Surviving the end of this World (arrangement).
So it is easy to be short sighted. It is easy to point out
the errors in doctrine and prophecy.
But if you focus on THAT you will miss a clear view of
just exactly what has been accomplished
- a world wide organization separate from loyalty to any earthly government. -
34
JW's Are The Key to Survival
by proplog2 inthis is an elaboration of a comment i made on gills post about the demise of jw's as the years pass.
gill suggested that humans have survived turmoil in the past.
but our world is different.
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proplog2
This is an elaboration of a comment I made on Gills post about the demise of JW'S as the years pass. Gill suggested that humans have survived turmoil in the past. But our world is different. Loners and small groups can't survive. Strong communities survive. By strong I mean they have to have a clear line of authority. They must be committed to an ideal. The word religion means to bind together. That is the cultural/evolutionary function of religion. What are Jehovah's Witnesses. They are a group that believes that when the world system breaks down that deliverance is close. This is essential to survival. Groups fall apart if they don't feel a solution is imminent. They are a world-wide network with an almost military discipline when it comes to following orders. They believe in self-sacrifice. The blood doctrine has no basis in the scripture but it is the perfect tool for cementing loyalty by making everyone get used to taking a virtual death-oath of obedience. They even have a kind of justice system - disfellowshipping etc. - to maintain order. The organization has all the marks of a structure that has been engineered (culture-formed) by some unseen entity/entities (aliens or angels whatever you want to call them). They have not just been about numbers. Yes they keep track of growth but they could be a larger organization if they were more flexible and tolerant. As you know a small disciplined army can defend itself better than a large undisciplined mass. All of the wacky doctrines are mostly fences to draw a clear boundary. It is a very selective boundary. Semi-permeable - flexible enough to allow growth but not rigid enough to cause suffocation. Doctrine is where most people make the mistake. Doctrine is not important. What IS important is the structure. You can't develop a survival organization over night. It takes a long time to weave the tapestry of a tight-knit association. You need connections between people over time. You need a shared understanding of authority. You need an organization that is international in scope. It easily takes 120 years to produce a survival group of 6 million. Central to this has been the theme that "the end is coming" . False dates were essential to accomplishing this. No one is going to make the sacrifices necessary if they don't think their immediate survival is at stake. Why do I say that there are some unseen entities involved? Because there never was a master plan to the organization. They have had only one idea which was also shared by the early Christians - Surviving the end of this World (arrangement). So it is easy to be short sighted. It is easy to point out the errors in doctrine and prophecy. But if you focus on THAT you will miss a clear view of just exactly what has been accomplished - a world wide organization separate from loyalty to any earthly government.
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THE WATCHTOWER JANUARY 15, 2008 New Study Edition
by Magick inthe new study edition of the watchtower.
we would like to explain some of the features of the new format of this magazine.. .
the study edition is published for jehovah's witnesses and progressive bible students.. .
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proplog2
Doesn't circulation mean the number of copies actually placed in homes? Most witnesses have a basement full of literature that just got yellow and moldy.
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political orientation
by John Doe inwhat political flavor are you?
are you secure in your politics?
do you feel a need to bash your opposing ideologies?
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proplog2
I consider myself progressive. Conservatives are greedy. Liberals are flaky wimps. The rich need to give up some of their cash or the common man will take it all and kill them. We seem to be at the end of a wealth accumulation cycle. Let the sharing begin!!!!