it's a shame this is only in the study edition, so the general public can't see how normal and down-to-earth the witnesses are in how they perceive themselves.... .
.
cedars.
Hey Cedars
Yes, those beards and bulging biceps did hit me straight between the eyes. It's obvious that those angels couldn't find any biblical prohibition against facial hair. Thats funny, neither could I...
FWFranz
wha happened? That cracked me up. I almost blasted my nice Mac Cinema Display with a mouthful of organic chili tortilla chips.
it's a shame this is only in the study edition, so the general public can't see how normal and down-to-earth the witnesses are in how they perceive themselves.... .
.
cedars.
Hi Cedars
What?!! Angels with beards that look like they work out quite regularly! I thought beards would get you hauled into the back room for a little conversation. What where those WT artsists thinking? Those angels look like they ride Harleys. Those WT comics are priceless.
FWFranz
i posted this on an older thread, but i wanted to get an honest opinion about this from all of you.
i think taking the 1975 approach with a jw is...weak.
was it wrong (and false prophetic) of them?
Hi problemaddict
I would like to comment on something you said about JW's not claiming to be prophets.
You said: " NOTHING the WT has written can be considered false prophecy because JW's believe they are not prophets."
The average JW might not WANT to admit that the WTS claims to be God's end time prophet but their literature says otherwise. In Ray Franz's book "Crisis of Conscience" he makes this point with a quote from the Awake ( it was either 1972 or 73, my memory fails me) . In this quote it clearly and unambiguously states that JW's are indeed God's prophet. No bones about it. There are of course other similar quotes that can be found. I personally believe this was one of their gravest errors and one that will come back to haunt them for as long as they exist. Prophets with failed predictions are false.
FWFranz
i posted this on an older thread, but i wanted to get an honest opinion about this from all of you.
i think taking the 1975 approach with a jw is...weak.
was it wrong (and false prophetic) of them?
Hi Christ Alone
It has been said by many others, but it is true that if you where active during the late 1960's and into the early 70's the expectation for the nearness of the end was very real. There may have been an ounce of caution from WT writers in not being too explicit, compared to those who predicted the failures of 1914, 1918, 1925, but the prevailing feeling was an undoubteded nearness of the end. I have two personal stories to relate that I think prove just how certain many at the top ( as well as the rank and file) felt about the end coming in 75. I vividly recall a convention that I attended in the summer of 1975 at Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto. The main highlight was a talk given by Fred Franz. You could hear a pin drop in that auditorium. People listened like they where listening to the voice of the Almighty. Franz gave a typical talk but focused almost exclusively on WT chronology and he built that talk to a climactic finish with some VERY strong language that led one to believe that we could possibly see the end in a matter of months. Of course there where a few statements that where designed as "get out of jail" type remarks in the event that nothing happened, but the crowd paid little attention to any of that. I wish I had a tape of that talk. Someone must have taped it, as a talk by Fred was always considered quite special. The other story was told to me by my uncle a few years ago. He was a very devout and faithful JW right up until his death, so I have no reason to believe this story to be anything else but absolutely factual. We where talking about the "truth" just before he died and the topic of the WT's prophetic record came up. I brought it up, because I wanted him to tell me what he thought of their dismal record in predicting the end of the world. He said he really didn't have a very good answer ( which surprised me as he was always quick to defend the WT, and claimed that all critics of it just had some personal axe to grind.) He then related a story to me that left me very shocked. Firstly that he would share it with me, as it definitely only proved my point and left the WTS looking rather foolish and very much NOT directed by God, certinly not when it came to their habit of end times predictions. He told me of a gathering of elders and overseers that took place at the Toronto Bethel when it was on Bridgeland Ave. ( memories for some who may have served there) He said it was a "special" meeting and was attended by quite a large number of brothers. The speaker was a bethel heavy sent up from New York. This took place in 1974 by the way. The speaker said to all in attendance that the Governing Body wanted to assure them that Armageddon was going to break out in 1975. Apparantly one brother sheepishly put up his hand at the end of the talk and asked the question, "How can we be certain of that"? The speaker from NY said that we could have absolute confidence because the GB was being used by Jehovah and that this would come to pass as they stated it would. I was absolutely shocked to hear this. There is no way in the world that my uncle made this up. It happened. So, for all those that choose to deny just how much this idea occupied the minds of JW's during that time period, I invite you to speak to those who where around at the time for a much more accurate picture.
FWFranz
the following is an extract from something i wrote 16 years ago soon after leaving the watchtower.
i am posting it because it may help honest jws consider how far their beliefs are at odds with new testament christians.
if they have "the truth" then their attitude to jesus ought to reflect that of the apostles.
Hi Cofty
Thanks for a detailed and well thought out presentation. I think that most witnesses are not really students of the bible and therefore most of what you have said here they will have missed. Yes, that is hard to believe, but true. They don't appreciate the elevated position that was conferred upon Jesus after his resurrection. The plain statements of scripture bare this out. In the mind of a JW, they feel that if they where to show this type of admiration and acknowledgment of the Son, this would somehow be immediately diminishing the same for the Father. Through deep study my own understanding of Jesus role has been magnified, though I don't espouse a trinitarian position.
FWFranz
that interpretation had caused a problem that the governing body was never able to satisfactorily explain.
they needed to be able to show that there has always been a functioning faithful and discreet slave in one form or another ever since.
but they were never able to provide any evidence for the existence of an ongoing 1900 year-old slave prior to the appearance of the watchtower society.
Hi Don
Virtually all WT explanations of the parable of the "faithful and discreet slave" beg questions that have no logical answers. The latest iteration has a very valid question. From the death of the apostles onward up until 1919, how where true Christians being fed spiritually? Certainly they cannot reasonably claim that for almost 1900 years there where absolutely no genuine Christians. If they existed, how where they fed? And if the method used by Jesus to feed his sheep was working just fine for 1900 years, what would be the need to suddenly alter that method?
FWFranz
jw's make much of calling god jehovah as if somehow this makes them better than us.
do we call our mother's by their legal name?
if you do or do not does that make the other less a son or daughter of god?.
I believe that within the WT mindset, their insistence on using the divine name virtually all the time identifies a flaw in their theology. It is quite apparent that God's name is non existent in all known copies of the NT. To my knowledge not even a single Koine Greek copy has the divine name in its entirety anywhere. (only Jah shows up once in the Revelation) I believe this absence is quite intentional. It speaks volumes about the Christians relationship to God. Jesus always referred to God as his father in pray and this example is to reinforce our new relationship with God as his adopted sons. The WT denies this relationship as adopted sons to most of its members. Did Paul identify any brethren who did NOT cry out abba Father. Of course he did not.
FWFranz
i'd like extend a greeting to all members of jwn.
i've been a lurking by-stander of this forum for approximately 6 months.
i think this forum's best moments can be attributed to the involvement of actual jw's in doctrinaire discussions and to heated (though not always dialectic) debates.
Hi Ethos
Welcome to JWN. I am happy to hear that you are fearless about open minded debate and exchanges of ideas. I would like to ask you a question about the supposed appointment of "the slave". There is an aspect of this teaching that didn't show up in Rays book "Crisis of Conscience" or Don Camerons book, "Captives of a Concept". And it certainly didn't show up in the Proclaimers book! The WTS claims that their appointment was merited because of teaching correct doctrine. I think all JW's would agree that the doctrine of atonement achieved through Christs single, and one time sacrifice, is a foundational belief. I believe that the WT's current teaching on this is correct and I am assuming you believe this. Are you aware of the fact that this understanding of the atonement was not always taught by the WTS. At the time of their supposed inspection and appointment in 1918/1919, they taught something that you and I would acknowledge as utterly apostate and heretical. At the time of the"slaves" appointment they held an utterly false belief regarding Jesus sacriice and its atoning value. How so you may ask. Have you read the book published by the WTS in 1881 called "Tabernacle Shadows". Bro. Russell wrote this book. I would highly recommend reading this. All Bible Students at the time accepted this as "the truth" on the doctrine of the atonement. In a nutshell it taught that Jesus sacrifice at Calvary did not result in a finished work of atonement. According to Russell there was much more work to be done. Russell's doctrine of the "sin offering" is something that is in addition to the ransom sacrifice that Jesus provided. This "sin offering" would take the entire gospel age and would be finished when the last body member had died faithfully. The value of that "sin offering" would be presented to Jehovah just like Jesus sarifice. Bible Students today teach this doctrine as they hold to Bro. Russell's writings almost to the letter. Again I would highly recommend you reading Tabernacle Shadows. Its available in its entirety online. You will see why the WTS doesn't talk about this doctrine in their literature. Its embarrssing to say the least, and it would out them as not understanding the most fundamental doctrine of Christianity, the atonement achieved through Jesus sacrifice. So, I ask you this question. Do you think that Jehovah and Jesus would choose a group that embraced and taught a heretical teaching on the most fundamental of all Christian doctrines.
FWFranz
i currently am a jw and my parents are too.they seem either confused or dislike it when i raise questions and recently, when i questioned them about 1925 and 1975, i've been told it's changed due to "new light.
" i don't remember nor do i have very much knowledge of "new light.".
this "new light" just dosen't sit with me and neither do the false prophecies.new light first of all, breaks a scripture in deut.
Hi DarkFireWolf
You have raised a very valid question about the WTS. I believe you are definitely on the right track by applying the biblical standard of a true prophet of God in Dueteronomy 18. The WTS has clearly identified itself as God's one and only end time prophet and this is their undoing. The scriptures condem them as a false prophet that God has not spoken through. The use of Proverbs 4 is taken out of proper context. If you read the entire fourth chapter of Proverbs you will quickly realize that the Society has perverted the meaning of this scripture to suit their own fantasies as a prophet of God. If you where to ask each member of the Governing Body seperately how God communicates with them, they would provide a very nebulous answer that would bare no resemblance to how first century Christians received divine revelations from God. According to scripture the revelations given to Paul where profound experiences that left and indelible imprint on his mind. Can the Governing Body share any similar experiences? I think we already know the answer to this. The WTS has replaced the work of the holy spirit of God with an uninspired, failed, self appointed prophet. I hope you are able to show your parents that the WTS's failed predictions are the blueprint for a false prophet. Be patient, as it may take a long time for the scales to drop from their eyes, if ever.
FWFranz
disclaimer:.
i really hate to hijack this thread, but i wasted my one 24hr post on that window washing thread last night.
i don't think i'll have an opportunity to post this up here if i wait, and would like to get it done before the weekend.
Hi Phizzy
Please elaborate, as I am not exactly sure in what way this is nepotism.
FWFranz
