I have thought about that in recent times, which is why it's so silly that they DON'T know who the F&DS are. They've got numbers on EVERYTHING and EVERYONE, EXCEPT the F&DS. One would think the F&DS would have to register in some way. After all, the Bible DOES number the 144,000.
leaving_quietly
JoinedPosts by leaving_quietly
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WT declares JWs are not "Great Crowd"
by irondork inhuh?.
okay, the thread title was a stretch, but not by much.. after these things i saw, and, look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the lamb..." revelation 7:9. sooo..... every time the wts releases it's annual report, it is declaring the total number of jehovah's witnesses, a crowd that can most certainly be numbered, as not being the "great crowd" mentioned at revelation 7:9
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SAFE WAY to awaken, VERY POWERFUL. Even called Bethel elder on it.
by EndofMysteries ini've found this topic and subject to be extremely powerful.
this is for those who still believe in god, realize the wt is apostate, and trying to help family.
(meaning i do not wish it to be used on trying to turn people athiest, i respect everyone's choices, i just believe and would hate my help to do what i feel is wrong) it might help fix things, or if you are still wondering how to awaken them without scaring them and being instantly shunned.
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leaving_quietly
Oh, you've touched on a very tricky subject. As for timing,
(John 6:35-44) Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. 36 But I have said to YOU, YOU have even seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; 38 because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.” 41 Therefore the Jews began to murmur at him because he said: “I am the bread that came down from heaven”; 42 and they began saying: “Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it that now he says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 In answer Jesus said to them: “Stop murmuring among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day. Note: not "last days" plural, "last day" singular. Three times stated. Since the GB just announced at the DC that "we are in the last day of the last days" I would expect this to be happening now. Some other things to consider: Daniel was told to seal up the words until the time of the end (Dan 12:4) John was told NOT to seal up the words: Rev 22:10 - He also tells me: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near." Rev 1:1 even says those prophecies would "shortly take place", as does Rev 22:6. Paul, in writing 1 Cor 15:51-57 uses the word "we" and "us". That, to me, indicates he was expecting this to happen to him personally, and to those in the Corinthian congregation. Enjoy making sense out of all of this... :)
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Went back out in Field Service Today... Feedback?
by simon17 inafter three years i dusted off my bible put on my sunday suit and walked door-to-door in the glorious morning sun for 90 minutes solid (no breaks--old-school).
' i always felt some subtle compulsion to do this, i don't know why.
it was not for subterfuge or causing trouble.
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leaving_quietly
I've actually though about doing something like this myself. And the JWs say apostates hate the word "preaching". Thanks for proving them wrong once again.
And, like perfect1 said: you talked to a lot of people in 90 minutes. Hats off to you!
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Pursuing higher education is comparable with having OCD - according to Gerrit Losch
by cedars inafter i posted my last "getting to know you" video where gerrit losch explains his "unique" views on armageddon, a couple of posters mentioned that other similarly controversial comments had been made by gerrit concerning higher education.. well, these comments were actually made in the same recording as the one i used in making the "armageddon" video, so i thought i should make the second video focussing on these.. here it is.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b7drwti-h4.
i realize many heavily indoctrinated publishers will try to defend these remarks by saying that, if it isn't in the society's publications, then gerrit losch's personal opinion is of no particular consequence.
however, the bible says that "out of the heart's abundance the mouth speaks", so by making these videos i hope i am at least showing people what is in the hearts of the men who lead us, and who claim to act as the mouthpiece of the slave class.. .
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leaving_quietly
71% go to college so they can get more money later. Well . . . duh!
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My video recorded apostasy trial is now live
by RayPublisher inpart 3 (which is where the actual meeting begins) is finished.
it took my computer hours and hours to render and upload it!!
anyway, this is what i just posted on my youtube channel:.
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leaving_quietly
They kept interrupting you, tried to cut you off. I like how the one named "Eric" said toward the end: "We're trying to reach you." They didn't try at all.
First: they didn't produce evidence against you (at least not in the first 45 minutes)
Second: when you asked who it was that accused you, they didn't say until nearly nearly 15 minutes into the proceedings. They only named one person (they said individuals, but they only named one). Whatever happened to the "2 or 3 witnesses" rule? They certainly didn't present the witnesses in the proceedings which is completely against the procedures.
ks-10 p. 89:
"2. The chairman should invite the accused to make a personal statement. If the accused contends that he is innocent, the witnesses to the wrongdoing should be presented and their testimony should be given in the presence of the accused."
Third, they said neither Matt 18 or Matt 5 applied to gross sins. Huh? Matt 18 is SPECIFICALLY addressing gross sin.
"Hence, when a dedicated Christian commits gross sin, something more than personal confession to Jehovah is needed. The elders must take certain steps, since the cleanness or the peace of the congregation is threatened. (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Corinthians 5:9-11; 6:9, 10)" w95 1/1 p. 27
Incidentally, this reference is in ks-10 p. 91, point #7.
I will call you out on one thing: At 15:57, you said "no" to the question about 1914 and having been lied to all your life by this organization. That wasn't exactly truthful, now, was it?
Personally, I wouldn't gave gone down the "dissident movement" path, though it may have woken them up a little. The points about going beyond the things that are written and about having no avenue to discuss differing views are perhaps the two issues that annoy me the most about being a JW.
It's really a shame that this type of proceeding happens to those who are reading the Bible and having honest questions. They said that there is an avenue: write to the Society. You pointedly mentioned the article that says that they don't really want us to do that any more. Even if that were an avenue, anyone who has ever served as an elder would know that copy of our question and answer would go also to the local body of elders (and perhaps even the circuit overseer) and the person with the question would be instantly branded as spiritually weak.
Sorry you had to go through this. It's disheartening to see how the word "apostasy" (only mentioned twice in the NT, incidentally . . . mostly used in the OT) is applied to folks like us who DO read the Bible, DO research a lot and DO NOT come to the same conclusion. The reality is that what should be acceptible worship is what James said at James 1:27: "The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world." JW's do NOT look after orphans or widows in their tribulation. They DO try to keep themselves without spot from the world. That's about all I can give them with regards to this verse.
Best to you in 'Life after JW'
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First reference to Christ's return in 1914?
by I quit! indoes anyone know the exact date the watchtower first referred to christ returning in 1914. the thread about the 1918/1919 date got me thinking about this.
i think it is kind of hard to pin down because i don't think they made a big deal about the change from 1874 to 1914 they just started using it like it was common knowlege..
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leaving_quietly
Just noticed a quote in this thread referencing "Light" p. 255 in 1931.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/120010/1/ANOTHER-flip-flop
This was Light Book 2, and the quote can be found here: http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/light2/light2_13.html "The river of pure water is seen "proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb". That shows that the river did not begin to proceed until after God had placed his anointed One on his throne in Zion, in 1914, at the birth of the kingdom." -
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12/15/12 Watchower Study Edition - Higher Eduction = Thinking in a "complicated" manner
by yourmomma ini found this quote from the 12/15/12 p.29 study edition of the watchtower to be hilarious:.
"a college graduate in the united states.
says: i spent 18 years speaking and writing.
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leaving_quietly
For those that can't find this, it's in the RSS podcast feed. Subscribe to it to download the latest. Go to Publications, Magazines, click on the Podcasts link.
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Looking for a new Bible translastion to read
by eyesropen323 inwhat would everyone recomend as far as what bible translation to read instead of the jw new world translation?.
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leaving_quietly
I enjoy the New English Translation. Easy read, more modern English than NWT, and the YouVersion version has footnotes that show various translations of certain words that could be used and why the translators chose what they did. I've read almost the entire Bible with this translation. I use others, but this one's my favorite.
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Let's Discuss Ray Franz's Books
by Recovery ini have been repeatedly pleaded with to read the books of ray franz in my short stay on this board.
apparently these are all the all-powerful, wt crushing arguments, that lead so many to leave jw's and become ruthless opposers of god's people.
we can discuss any claims/statements/scriptural arguments presented in either of his books, as long as it somehow proves jehovah's witnesses are not god's people.
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leaving_quietly
@Recovery,
I'm in a similar position that of The Searcher. I began to question, not the Bible, but the teachings of the org that go well beyond the scriptures. I started to notice blatant contradictions, misquotes of secular sources, a side-stepping of certain verses, and sometimes, just plain untruth. An example: look in the My Book of Bible Stories at the picture of Lot and his daughters fleeing. Notice that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt while still fleeing. Now read the account in the Bible. When does the Bible say she was turned into a pillar of salt? The society has encouraged us to read the Bible daily. That's exactly why I started to see these things. I still read the Bible several times a week, and when given the opportunity to read in in large chunks, things start to click that never did before just by reading a verse here and a verse there (even the Bible Highlights fails to provide satisfaction because one must want to be in a mindset to read and understand, not be forced to do so.)
I did read Franz's CoC, reluctantly. It was an interesting read, but I can't say it influenced me in either direction. He did not set out to prove JWs wrong. He simply told his story, the way he was treated by his peers on the GB, how he felt it like a mock trial, and he exposed some of the goings on behind the scenes. Objectively, I can only say this is his side of the story. We don't have, and never will have, the other side ( thought the copies of correspondance are compelling.) Therefore, I take it with a grain of salt. I would much rather continue my Bible study and let the Bible speak for itself. Unfortunately, the society does not like people like me, The Searcher, or many others on this forum. In print, we are invited to read, do deep study and meditation, but in reality, if we show a Berean-like attitude, just searching with a desire to prove things true, but discover otherwise, then we are shunned and labeled as apostates if we dare open our mouths. Many here have a deep love for God and Christ. But some things just don't have the ring of truth anymore after reading the scriptures in context for ourselves.
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Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?
by Recovery inlet's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed christians are not the fds.
if the anointed are not the fds, who are?.
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leaving_quietly
You asked for a scripture to prove the JW interpretation is wrong. The very scripture that states the parable is the one that disproves the JW interpretation. Let's ignore the parable/prophecy thing for now.
First, the slave would have to be faithful and discreet BEFORE Jesus arrived. "Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so." This is the number one criteria. What "food" was being taught when Jesus allegedly arrived in 1918/1919. That he arrived in 1874. The cross was not an issue. Christmas was still being celebrated. There was no concept of an earthly hope. Were these teachings food even worth serving at ANY time if they were not correct? Would Jesus really approve of these? If so, then we could say that he would have approved of the Second Adventists, perhaps the Free Masons, or anyone else teaching SOME truth at that time. It doesn't matter what has been taught since then, because Jesus would have already made his choice. It wasn't recognized that Jesus came in 1918/1919 until years after the fact.
Second, we have only the say-so of the publishers of The Watchtower to tell us that Jesus came. And we have only the say-so of The Watchtower to tell us they are the FDS. Is that evidence? It certainly is a bold claim, but it is a self-proclamation. Does that make it true?
Third, let's say that the FDS was chosen. Are they still? Well, who, according to the scripture, gives the food? The faithful and discreet slave, right? This appears to have changed in recent years.
w09 6/15 pp. 20-24, specifically par 18: " Similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class. They make up the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. These spirit-anointed men oversee the Kingdom work and the spiritual feeding program. As in the first century, though, the Governing Body does not consult with each individual member of the slave class before making decisions."
This is in contrast to the Insight book article about the Faithful and Discreet Slave: "Whereas this was a prime responsibility of those appointed as ‘shepherds’ of the flock (1Pe 5:1-3), the apostle Peter shows that such stewardship of the divine truths was actually committed to all the ‘chosen ones,’ all the spirit-anointed ones, of the Christian congregation. (1Pe 1:1, 2; 4:10, 11) Thus the entire anointed Christian congregation was to serve in a united stewardship, dispensing such truths."
It seems the Governing Body has taken on the role of the entire slave class all on its own. So, the scripture used to identify the FDS, Matt 24:43-45, also tells us the main responsibility of that slave, providing spiritual food. The Governing Body has taken that responsibility away from the rest of the FDS, therefore, the anointed cannot fulfill this responsibility today.
You asked if the FDS is not the anointed, as JWs believe, then who is? I'm not sure that questioned can be answered at this time. We would have to accept that Jesus arrived invisibly already so he could identify the FDS. There is scriptural reason to believe he has not. Certainly, not every eye has seen him. (Rev 1:7)