What has this thread accomplished, other than allowing a healthy debate?
But I rather enjoyed this debate. ;)
Kinda like a practice run for when the elders come-a-callin'! He he.
leaving_quietly
JoinedPosts by leaving_quietly
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Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3
by objectivetruth ini stopped attending meetings over one year ago, and i have thoroughly made it clear to all friends & family that i am opposed to the teachings of jehovah's witnesses, and i cannot support a religion that teaches lies.. i have systematically examined each teaching & practice of the jehovah's witnesses.
concluding that many are not scriptural or logical.. after a year i have very unexpectedly arrived at another conclusion.
the jehovah's witnesses do have the truth.
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leaving_quietly
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Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3
by objectivetruth ini stopped attending meetings over one year ago, and i have thoroughly made it clear to all friends & family that i am opposed to the teachings of jehovah's witnesses, and i cannot support a religion that teaches lies.. i have systematically examined each teaching & practice of the jehovah's witnesses.
concluding that many are not scriptural or logical.. after a year i have very unexpectedly arrived at another conclusion.
the jehovah's witnesses do have the truth.
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leaving_quietly
Had to go to meeting, thus the delay in my reply.
1. Jesus Attended the Jewish Synagogue for Most of His Life. At that time, they were Absolutely Teaching False Doctrine, as well as Man Made tradition that was Contrary to God's True Word.
True. Of course, he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was also an Israelite. And as for those false doctrines and traditions, what did he do? Just go along with it? For a time, yes. But after his baptism, he called them hypocrites for teaching commands of men as false doctrines for their traditions, for burdening the people. Try doing that in a Kingdom Hall.
2. Paul supported False Religion, and he even Murdered righteous men in Support of that Religion. - Jesus chose him, because of his Heart Condtion.
Also true. However, recall what Christ said to him at first: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" (Acts 9:4) Yes, he saw the good in him, but he also acknowledged the bad. That was to change with Paul.
Later, Paul said:
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be′li·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty." (2 Cor 6:14-18)
Notice the order... get out, separate yourselves, quit touching the unclean thing... and I will take you in. I'm not saying the order is ultra crucial, but it's noteworthy, nonetheless, and I would say that if we know a religion/church to be false, this admonition has to count for something. Plus, we have the benefit of the visions of Revelation, including the angel declaring (speaking of Babylon the Great), "Get out of her, my people!". That must be taken into consideration.3. No one, teaches Truth, anywhere in the World. I believe that Jesus wants us to Remain in the Church that we are in at the time of Being Called .1 Cor 7:17 " Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches." (My opinion, what are your thoughts on this Scripture?)
I'm not afraid to say that I believe in Christ. Before undertaking this journey learning TTATT, I had zero faith in Christ. I thought I did, but have realized that my faith was seriously misplaced in "the organization" instead of Christ. To that end, I agree with you. No one can truly teach truth unless they look to the one who IS truth, that is, Christ. John 14:6) There are some here who would mock me for that position, but it is my position, nonetheless.
To address the verse you quoted, it's an interesting take, but since I like reading things in context, let's take a look at this more in context. Not sure which translation you used... perhaps ESV? Here's the passage, verses 17-23.
Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. 21 Were you a bondservant when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) 22 For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men. 24 So, brothers, in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God.
The point Paul was trying to make was that a person need not make drastic changes if they are called because their calling was not dependent on such changes. It's a free gift. However, he did make it a point to say that if they were slaves, they should try to gain their freedom. He made that point elsewhere, too, that they should not be enslaved to men. Take that for what it's worth.
Here's my thinking on the matter. If I could openly speak about the Bible with JWs without being judged/ostracized/hauled before a judicial committee and thrown out, if I could disagree with the GB on matters of importance, if I could openly declare my faith in Christ, then remaining a JW might be an option. But, I cannot do any of that. I cannot openly declare my faith in Christ without, at a minimum, raising eyebrows. I certainly could not openly declare my faith by my actions by partaking of the bread and the wine at the Memorial. That being the case, in my opinion, at some point in time, I will have to "come out".
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Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3
by objectivetruth ini stopped attending meetings over one year ago, and i have thoroughly made it clear to all friends & family that i am opposed to the teachings of jehovah's witnesses, and i cannot support a religion that teaches lies.. i have systematically examined each teaching & practice of the jehovah's witnesses.
concluding that many are not scriptural or logical.. after a year i have very unexpectedly arrived at another conclusion.
the jehovah's witnesses do have the truth.
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leaving_quietly
When I began Striving To Do instead of Know, is when I started to Understand God & Truth much Clearer.
Ok... so now we're converging onto the same path. :)
But, when one does KNOW what isn't true, then being part of that which isn't true is problematic. That's my thinking, anyway.
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Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3
by objectivetruth ini stopped attending meetings over one year ago, and i have thoroughly made it clear to all friends & family that i am opposed to the teachings of jehovah's witnesses, and i cannot support a religion that teaches lies.. i have systematically examined each teaching & practice of the jehovah's witnesses.
concluding that many are not scriptural or logical.. after a year i have very unexpectedly arrived at another conclusion.
the jehovah's witnesses do have the truth.
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leaving_quietly
Acts 1:7 - Jesus did not Answer their Question.. If I were to ask you, "Will you be Going to the Store Tomorrow" and you Replied, "Don't worry about that, it's none of your Business" The Result would be the same, if I had never asked the Question.. Jesus did not answer, he Just let it be and allowed them to wonder.
Ah, but Jesus' answer was a correction when he said: "It does not belong to you to know". You said he didn't correct them. You didn't say he didn't answer them. I addressed your statement about him not correcting them. True, he didn't answer their question, but he DID correct them.
declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”" If God is writing his law within people's hearts, how would it be possible to write errors and inaccuracies? - God's Laws are His Statutes,Commandments,Regulations and Not Scriptural Doctrine relating to Prophecy,Chronology and Historical Interpretation..
I'll give you that at as a technicality, though that does bring into question why so much is written about Jehovah and his Laws (such as the current book, "Draw Close to Jehovah", being studied at the Congregation Bible Study.) Doctrine relating to prophecy, chronology and historical interpretation must be very carefully treaded on. "Do not go beyond the things that are written". JWs do this routinely.
Thanks for quoting the MOSAIC LAW that was abolished. This is the JW mindset. This is not the mind of Christ.*** edit... saw your "Side Note" edit... I'm glad to hear you say that. ***
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Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3
by objectivetruth ini stopped attending meetings over one year ago, and i have thoroughly made it clear to all friends & family that i am opposed to the teachings of jehovah's witnesses, and i cannot support a religion that teaches lies.. i have systematically examined each teaching & practice of the jehovah's witnesses.
concluding that many are not scriptural or logical.. after a year i have very unexpectedly arrived at another conclusion.
the jehovah's witnesses do have the truth.
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leaving_quietly
I believe what I Believe, but Who am I to Judge some one on what they Believe?
Exactly right. At the same time, who are JWs to judge even fellow JWs on what they believe? That really is the crux of the matter as lives have been destroyed over this.
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Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3
by objectivetruth ini stopped attending meetings over one year ago, and i have thoroughly made it clear to all friends & family that i am opposed to the teachings of jehovah's witnesses, and i cannot support a religion that teaches lies.. i have systematically examined each teaching & practice of the jehovah's witnesses.
concluding that many are not scriptural or logical.. after a year i have very unexpectedly arrived at another conclusion.
the jehovah's witnesses do have the truth.
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leaving_quietly
That is where the Issue lies, any teaching can be Proven with the Bible.
Ahhhh... now if you started off with this statement in the first place, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. But, the caveat is that any teaching can be proven using methods of eisegesis. In other words, with any bias, the Bible can say anything you want it to say. That's why real, objective, non-biased research is necessary.
Now, if you are okay with being part of a religion that claims to have the truth, but is, in fact, no different than any other biased religion, how do you feel about that? If it suits you, then good for you. But don't say JWs have the Truth when they clearly do not.
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Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3
by objectivetruth ini stopped attending meetings over one year ago, and i have thoroughly made it clear to all friends & family that i am opposed to the teachings of jehovah's witnesses, and i cannot support a religion that teaches lies.. i have systematically examined each teaching & practice of the jehovah's witnesses.
concluding that many are not scriptural or logical.. after a year i have very unexpectedly arrived at another conclusion.
the jehovah's witnesses do have the truth.
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leaving_quietly
1. For Every 50 Dates that point to a date other than 607 BCE there are 2 Secular, non Jehovah's Witnesses Sources that point to it.
I see you tackled the one argument that I said was a wild goose chase. 607 is only a problem because JWs make a big deal of it when, in fact, it shouldn't even be part of the argument based on the future tense of Jesus' words, which ALSO shouldn't be part of the argument because it's a cherry-picked link between the "seven times" in Daniel 4 and "times" in Luke 21:24. This is a non-argument. The whole 1914 thing is a fabricated prophecy.
2. Jesus Apostles continued to be wrong on several things, and Jesus never corrected them.. Example Acts 1:6 , they were expecting the Kingdom to be restored to Israel at that very Time.
Of course he corrected them. At Acts 1:7, he said "It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." How is that not a correction?
3. With in "Gods Organizations" there have always been Errors & Innacurate Prophesies. - Deuteronomy 18:22 "when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him." This scripture is spoken to Gods Chosen people, The Nation of Israel, which proves there were False Prophets amongst the Israelites, the same as there have been among The Organization. The Scripture does not say "The Israelites will no longer be gods chosen people, it says do not be afraid of him The False Prophet (Individually).
I'll hold back a little on this one. But, two things:
1. The new covenant is that God would teach people himself. Jer 31:33,34 is that new covenant: "“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”" If God is writing his law within people's hearts, how would it be possible to write errors and inaccuracies? And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin."
2. If any organization claims to have the truth, then that "truth" changes, and people are expelled, excommunicated, disfellowshipped for not believing their current version of truth, then how could that organization possibly be God's organization? This goes back to your first argument that Jesus never corrected the apostles. If that is true, then why would the organization dare to correct or throw out people who don't believe what comes from the organization as "truth"? Is the organization greater than Jesus?
*** edited to add Jer. 31:34 also ***
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leaving_quietly
*** deleted ***
comment out of context (I should have read the rest before I commented)
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Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3
by objectivetruth ini stopped attending meetings over one year ago, and i have thoroughly made it clear to all friends & family that i am opposed to the teachings of jehovah's witnesses, and i cannot support a religion that teaches lies.. i have systematically examined each teaching & practice of the jehovah's witnesses.
concluding that many are not scriptural or logical.. after a year i have very unexpectedly arrived at another conclusion.
the jehovah's witnesses do have the truth.
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leaving_quietly
Let's get real specific about 1914. JWs teach that Daniel's tree dream in Daniel 4 has, not one, but two fulfillments. They say this using the phrase, "it is not logical to think" that this doesn't have more than one fulfillment because so many of the other visions in Daniel do have a future fulfillment.
Right off the bat, JWs use speculation to support their teaching.
Then, they arbitrarily link this vision to Jesus' words at Luke 21:24 based on the word "times" and that word alone. Following that link, they say that Jesus was talking about the times from the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. (which date is in dispute, but that's not my argument). However, the Greek word for "will be" in the phrase "Jerusalem will be trodden down" is in the FUTURE tense, not the past tense, so Jesus could not have been speaking about an event that occurred some 600 years in his past when he spoke those words.
So, second major flaw in this argument: cherry-picking scriptures to fit an idea
607 B.C.E is a third major flaw in that JWs do not accept what the vast majority of scholars, theologians and archeaologists date the destruction of Jerusalem at. However, getting to 607 in the first place is problematic because of the future tense of the phrase "will be", so that's more of a wild goose chase.
Fourth: JWs didn't start teaching 1914 as the start of Christ's presence until 1943. Prior to then, they taught 1874. Did they have the truth before 1943? Or is it just AFTER 1943 that they started having the truth?
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Dissoi logoi - Jehovah's Witnesses do have the Truth! My Story Part 3
by objectivetruth ini stopped attending meetings over one year ago, and i have thoroughly made it clear to all friends & family that i am opposed to the teachings of jehovah's witnesses, and i cannot support a religion that teaches lies.. i have systematically examined each teaching & practice of the jehovah's witnesses.
concluding that many are not scriptural or logical.. after a year i have very unexpectedly arrived at another conclusion.
the jehovah's witnesses do have the truth.
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leaving_quietly
I, too, have been very objective in this journey. Nothing anyone says is taken at face value. I started my research with the premise that JWs DO have the truth. But, my research has shown otherwise. How is it that two presumably intelligent people have done "objective" research and came to very different conclusions?
My conclusion: JWs have SOME truth. But with very core things they do not have THE truth. The core parts of the JW theology have to do with 1914, the 144,000 vs. great crowd, and heaven vs. paradise earth. Everything else is fluff. If these three doctrines are true, then I would bite.
Tell us, how did you come to the conclusion that 1914 is true? I came to a very different conclusion, and the house of cards came tumbling down.