panhandlegirl
JoinedPosts by panhandlegirl
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76
Happy 12th birthday to JWD / JWN (us !)
by Simon inomg, today is the forum's 12th birthday !.
omg x 2 - i said the word 'birthday' and no-one was beheaded !
lol.
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21
Do they realize how stupid they look?
by jam ina few years ago my aunt(my mom only living sibling).
invited me my brothers and sister for dinner.
my mom had.
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panhandlegirl
Had a simiar experience at a family reunion. My sister and her family, about 8 JWS, who brought most of the food, left when my younger brother an me, both df'd, entered the room. I thought it was so funny. We ate the food and danced. They went home without touching any of the food. Surprised they didn't take it with them!!
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778
IS GOD REAL? HOW DO YOU KNOW?
by still thinking inthis is an honest question on my part.
someone on this board asked me 'how do you know' a while ago and i really struggled with it.
in fact, it was a turning point for me.
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panhandlegirl
SweetBabyCheezits. Good Points!! Need to watch it again I don't think any religion is completly correct. I don't believe a loving and just God would destroy me because I did not know or understand everything about Him. If He does, I cannot do anything about it so I choose not to worry about what I cannot control. I live my life as best I can.
When my life ends, it ends. When/if Armaggadon comes, it comes. Do I sound like a fatalist? I'm not.
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778
IS GOD REAL? HOW DO YOU KNOW?
by still thinking inthis is an honest question on my part.
someone on this board asked me 'how do you know' a while ago and i really struggled with it.
in fact, it was a turning point for me.
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panhandlegirl
panhandlegirl...welcome, I don't think I have read any of your posts before.
I have a question for you though...is that enough for you to believe? Or do you have other reasons that confirm to you that god is indeed real?
Thanks for the welome. I have not really discussed the WBTS or read any wt mags in years. I was df'd sometime in early 80s, before CoC was released. I read the book and loaned it out (mistake). Never got it back but I did buy it again. I found this site at another JW site who provided a link to this site. I like this site because of the different opinions and ideas put forth. They make me think and cringe (at times). I don't mind my mind being challanged.It helps me expand my mind. My three brother, all XJW, no longer believe the Bible; I am not sure if they believe in God. That's what the wbts does for you.
I guess the reasons I posted are reason enough for me to believe that God exists. I don't think He is involved in my/our everyday life. He has never spoken to me, I am not sure that he has ever answered my prayers. I believe He did protect me on one occassion when I was stranded on a lonely road when my SUV broke down, but am not sure.
I read about Pascel's Wager years ago and it made sense to me.
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778
IS GOD REAL? HOW DO YOU KNOW?
by still thinking inthis is an honest question on my part.
someone on this board asked me 'how do you know' a while ago and i really struggled with it.
in fact, it was a turning point for me.
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panhandlegirl
The Argument from Pascal's Wager
Most philosophers think Pascal's Wager is the weakest of all arguments for believing in the existence of God. Pascal thought it was the strongest. No reasonable person can be or ever is in doubt in such cases. But deciding whether to believe in God is a case like these, argues Pascal. It is therefore the height of folly not to "bet" on God, even if you have no certainty, no proof, no guarantee that your bet will win.
Atheism is a terrible bet. It gives you no chance of winning the prize.
To understand Pascal's Wager you have to understand the background of the argument. Pascal lived in a time of great scepticism. Medieval philosophy was dead, and medieval theology was being ignored or sneered at by the new intellectuals of the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century. Montaigne, the great sceptical essayist, was the most popular writer of the day. The classic arguments for the existence of God were no longer popularly believed. What could the Christian apologist say to the sceptical mind of this age? Suppose such a typical mind lacked both the gift of faith and the confidence in reason to prove God's existence; could there be a third ladder out of the pit of unbelief into the light of belief?
Pascal's Wager claims to be that third ladder. Pascal well knew that it was a low ladder. If you believe in God only as a bet, that is certainly not a deep, mature, or adequate faith. But it is something, it is a start, it is enough to dam the tide of atheism. The Wager appeals not to a high ideal, like faith, hope, love, or proof, but to a low one: the instinct for self-preservation, the desire to be happy and not unhappy. But on that low natural level, it has tremendous force. Thus Pascal prefaces his argument with the words, "Let us now speak according to our natural lights."
Imagine you are playing a game for two prizes. You wager blue chips to win blue prizes and red chips to win red prizes. The blue chips are your mind, your reason, and the blue prize is the truth about God's existence. The red chips are your will, your desires, and the red prize is heavenly happiness. Everyone wants both prizes, truth and happiness. Now suppose there is no way of calculating how to play the blue chips. Suppose your reason cannot win you the truth. In that case, you can still calculate how to play the red chips. Believe in God not because your reason can prove with certainty that it is true that God exists but because your will seeks happiness, and God is your only chance of attaining happiness eternally.
Pascal says, "Either God is, or he is not. But to which view shall we be inclined? Reason cannot decide this question. [Remember that Pascal's Wager is an argument for sceptics.] Infinite chaos separates us. At the far end of this infinite distance [death] a coin is being spun that will come down heads [God] or tails [no God]. How will you wager?"
We are like ships
that need to get home.The most powerful part of Pascal's argument comes next. It is not his refutation of atheism as a foolish wager (that comes last) but his refutation of agnosticism as impossible. Agnosticism, not-knowing, maintaining a sceptical, uncommitted attitude, seems to be the most reasonable option. The agnostic says, "The right thing is not to wager at all." Pascal replies, "But you must wager. There is no choice. You are already committed [embarked]." We are not outside observers of life, but participants. We are like ships that need to get home, sailing past a port that has signs on it proclaiming that it is our true home and our true happiness. The ships are our own lives and the signs on the port say "God". The agnostic says he will neither put in at that port (believe) nor turn away from it (disbelieve) but stay anchored a reasonable distance away until the weather clears and he can see better whether this is the true port or a fake (for there are a lot of fakes around). Why is this attitude unreasonable, even impossible? Because we are moving. The ship of life is moving along the waters of time, and there comes a point of no return, when our fuel runs out, when it is too late. The Wager works because of the fact of death.
Once it is decided that we must wager; once it is decided that there are only two options, theism and atheism, not three, theism, atheism, and agnosticism; then the rest of the argument is simple. Atheism is a terrible bet. It gives you no chance of winning the red prize. Pascal states the argument this way:
You have two things to lose: the true and the good; and two things to stake: your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to avoid: error and wretchedness. Since you must necessarily choose, your reason is no more affronted by choosing one rather than the other. That is one point cleared up. But your happiness? Let us weigh up the gain and the loss involved in calling heads that God exists. Let us assess the two cases: if you win, you win everything: if you lose, you lose nothing. Do not hesitate then: wager that he does exist.
If God does not exist, it does not matter how you wager, for there is nothing to win after death and nothing to lose after death. But if God does exist, your only chance of winning eternal happiness is to believe, and your only chance of losing it is to refuse to believe. As Pascal says, "I should be much more afraid of being mistaken and then finding out that Christianity is true than of being mistaken in believing it to be true." If you believe too much, you neither win nor lose eternal happiness. But if you believe too little, you risk losing everything.
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778
IS GOD REAL? HOW DO YOU KNOW?
by still thinking inthis is an honest question on my part.
someone on this board asked me 'how do you know' a while ago and i really struggled with it.
in fact, it was a turning point for me.
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panhandlegirl
The parasite that can only survive by burrowing into an eye and which causes countless numbers of African children to go blind every year is also wonderfully made.
Keep studying.
I am not familiar with such a parasite but as you advised, I will study up on it. I am not adverse to learning or other ideas. After all, I did leave the organization after 35 years and growing up in it. I have a large family and no one speaks to me. I have been described by some of them as a "dog who has returned to it's own vomit" so I my feelings are not hurt easily. I knew when I left that I would lose all my family and all the friends I had ever know. I am sure most of you here have experienced the same type of rejection.I am just here to see what other xjws/jws think or are doing.
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778
IS GOD REAL? HOW DO YOU KNOW?
by still thinking inthis is an honest question on my part.
someone on this board asked me 'how do you know' a while ago and i really struggled with it.
in fact, it was a turning point for me.
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panhandlegirl
Why did he create viruses Panhandlegirl?
I don't know the answer to that question, but after studying viruses, I have a learnd that they are very smart. When we find something that kills them, they find a way to protect themselves. They put a shield covering over themselves. What do you think? Do you accept science? Do you believe in evolution? I am not sure about evolution, but if it is true, I believe an intellignent mind put it in motion. I do not pretend to know how God put things into being: evolution or creation.
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778
IS GOD REAL? HOW DO YOU KNOW?
by still thinking inthis is an honest question on my part.
someone on this board asked me 'how do you know' a while ago and i really struggled with it.
in fact, it was a turning point for me.
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panhandlegirl
I have studied a lot of biology classes and the more I have studied, the more I believe there is a God, an intelligent being that has created everything.
I have never seen anything come to be without some force causing it to be. My house never cleans itself, I have to do it. What plans God may have for us, i don't know. I do know the earth is constantly recycling inself, i.e. the seasons, the ocean floor. Maybe we will just be recycled. Just consider your own body and brain. Are they not wonderfully made?
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Those on JWN still serving as elders...What if?
by Kensho inapostates undercover elders (i know there are some professed elders on here) have you ever handled a jc envoling a publisher viewing sites like jwn or others and who question the gb etc.. and if not what if you were assigned a jc involving apostacy?.
i would think this would be almost, if not an impossible situation.. kensho.
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panhandlegirl
In the early seventies, an elder approached me and told the elders had to meet with me. I asked why but he would not tell me. I knew I had not done anything wrong, my husband was already df'd for smoking, and my childern were 12 an 10 years old, so I had no clue about why they wanted the meeting. Three elders came to my home. We met in the living room. My husband and his parents (JWs) stayed in the kitchen and my children and I sat in the living room with the elders. They began to question my 12 yo son about smoking pot, which he denied. They told him his JW cousins and friends had already confessed. My son then confessed that they had indeed smoked some pot they found at his uncles house. The oldest of these kids was 15 years old. One of the elders, the youngest one, asked my son "Did you really think you could get away with it?" My husband and I were shocked about the kids smoking pot; the uncle with the pot was my husbands brother. The elders punished my son by not letting him take part an upcoming CA skit. About a month after that incident, that young elder was df'd for adultery!! Talk about having a conscience. I can't believe that he actually took part in that farce of a meeting. The elders should have come to me and told me about what my son had done and let me handle the situation. Not only was he underage, he was not baptized. I really should have reported them to the authorities.
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Those on JWN still serving as elders...What if?
by Kensho inapostates undercover elders (i know there are some professed elders on here) have you ever handled a jc envoling a publisher viewing sites like jwn or others and who question the gb etc.. and if not what if you were assigned a jc involving apostacy?.
i would think this would be almost, if not an impossible situation.. kensho.
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panhandlegirl
what does JWN mean?
Most philosophers think Pascal's Wager is the weakest of all arguments for believing in the existence of God. Pascal thought it was the strongest. 