Posts by kepler

284

ABOUT TERRY

by Quentin in

jw
friends

terry was admitted to the hospital yesterday.

he has a severe case of cellulites which has affected his neck glands.

his face and neck are very swollen.

kepler

Pinewood studios? 1940s...

All clear air raid sirens. Thumbs up.

20

Jeremiah 29:8-21 and the August 2012 Oral review

by Bobcat in

something caught my attention in connection with the tms oral review.. i was hoping to ellicit some comments, especially from any who have some working knowledge of ane matters.. .

here is question 9 of the august 2012 tms oral review:.

when was egypt desolated for 40 years, and what basis do we have for believing that such a desolation took place?

kepler

Leolaia,

Went back and read and filed some of that material. Plus "bumped" it up to the present.

That was excellent for this particular Ezekiel case

and the general subject of history by selected prophetic fiat. Research and reflections.

Hope as many people as possible get a chance to read and think about it.

104

Ezekiel 29:12 - Prophecy of the Desolation of Egypt for 40 years

by VM44 in

ezekiel 29:12. new international version(1984).

i will make the land of egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities.

and i will disperse the egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.. new living translation(2007).

kepler

Excuse me:

The preceeding SEVERAL pages is an excellent discussion of a topic that came up again - two years later.

104

Ezekiel 29:12 - Prophecy of the Desolation of Egypt for 40 years

by VM44 in

ezekiel 29:12. new international version(1984).

i will make the land of egypt desolate among devastated lands, and her cities will lie desolate forty years among ruined cities.

and i will disperse the egyptians among the nations and scatter them through the countries.. new living translation(2007).

kepler

The proceeding SEVERAL pages is an excellent discussion of a topic that came up again - two years later.

20

Jeremiah 29:8-21 and the August 2012 Oral review

by Bobcat in

something caught my attention in connection with the tms oral review.. i was hoping to ellicit some comments, especially from any who have some working knowledge of ane matters.. .

here is question 9 of the august 2012 tms oral review:.

when was egypt desolated for 40 years, and what basis do we have for believing that such a desolation took place?

Since I also had a discussion of the Nebuchadnezzar Egyptian campaign from the Egyptian studies side, I thought I'd look through that too. I am not sure Toby Wilkinson is the same Wilkinson that F.C. Cook cites above. Besides "Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt", published in 2010, Wilkinson also has a dozen or so references of his own cited, including "Lives of the Ancient Egyptians", vs "Manners and Customs of the Egyptians" noted above. In any case, in Section V - Change and Decay (1069-30 BC), chapter 21, Fortune's Fickle Wheel, Wilkinson concludes on page 417 that the Babylonian invasion setting off in 567 BC was roundly defeated.

Determining "who's on first" or who was on first back then gets tricky with remaining chronology discrepancies and conventions for naming Egyptian monarchs. In Wilkinson's system, it is described as follows with some noteworthy events:

Psamtek I, 664-610 BC

Nekau (Necho) II, 610-595

Psamtek II, 595-589

Wahibra 589-570

Ahmose II 570-526

After the defeat or fall of independent states in Syria, Lebanon and Palestine,

"Egypt was now the front line. Psamtek II's son and successor Wahibra successfully repulsed an attempted Babylonian invasion in 582, but knew very well he would need allies to safeguard Egyptian independence. Following his father's example, he looked to the Greek world, and appointed Ionian and Carian mercenaries to positions of prominence in the Egyptian army. ... deeply unpopular with the native Egyptian military, who felt increasingly marginalized by the high ranking foreigners in their midst.

"... in January 570 when a disastrous campaign in Libya led to a full-scale mutiny by the surviving Egyptian forces, Wahibra sent one of his most experienced commanders, Ahmose, to put down the revolt. By far from reimposing order, Ahmose promptly seized power and was proclaimed king by the rebels. ...By August the geneneral had been recognized as Pharaoh, a second Ahmose, throughout the western delta. ...Wahibra [after a battle that fall] fled to abroad ... to the court of Babylon. The Babylonian king, Nebuchadrezzr, could scarcely believe his luck. Here wa an unmissable opportunity to meddle in Babylonian affairs and put a Babylonian puppet on the throne of Horus.

"Realizing the impending danger, Ahmose II (570-526) took immediate measure to guard against an invasion. He concluded an alliance with the Greeks of Cyrene, ... while removing a Greek garrison in the eastern delta thought to harbor sympathies for Wahibra. Pragmatism, not ideology was was the order of the day. In 567, a Babylonian force led by the deposed king attempted to invade Egypt by land and sea, but was roundly defeated. This time there was no escape for Wahibra. He was captured and killed.... nonetheless buried with full royal honors by a victorious Ahmose..."

Subsequent political and military leadership continued to have a Greek contribution and the city of "Naukratis swiftly became the busiest port in Egypt", if that is what constitutes a 40 year desolation.

It seems to me that OT prophets invoked "desolations" much like medieval popes called for Crusades. In either case, they are enlisting the services of others: available Assyrian or Babylonian power bases or warrior classes of fuedal states respectively.

Jeremiah writes at length (e.g., chapters 43, 44) about fleeing to Egypt and then predicts calmity both for Egypt and the Judeans who seek refuge there. If that were the case over the long term, then I suspect there would not have been a Septuagint Bible.

Elsewhere I had mentioned the similar prophecies about Babylon's permanent desolation (25:12), that was to follow immediately the 70-desolation of Jerusalem. At least one contradiction within the Bible itself is the account of Ezra assembling later year returnees

Ezra 8:1

"These with their genealogies , were the heads of the familes who set out from Babylon with me in the reign of King of Artaxerxes."

A week or so ago, when I had encountered several elders at a commonly frequented local coffee house, I had pointed out that Greek and Persian records clearly indicated that Babylon was not destroyed by Persian Cyrus or hardly even sacked. It changed to new management more favored by the priests of Marduk vs. Assyrian born Naibonidus and his son. The elders said at that time in unison that they only acknowledged biblical sources.

This week, when I encountered a party of six of them, I brought Ezra up. The lead said that they would look into this matter when they got back to their KH. I told them that that was not necessary. On a piece of paper I had the above quote and several others and placed it on their table so that they all could read.

I said, "This clearly contradicts Jeremiah 25:12."

They said absolutely nothing in response.

But they did laugh among themselves as I walked away.

20

Jeremiah 29:8-21 and the August 2012 Oral review

by Bobcat in

something caught my attention in connection with the tms oral review.. i was hoping to ellicit some comments, especially from any who have some working knowledge of ane matters.. .

here is question 9 of the august 2012 tms oral review:.

when was egypt desolated for 40 years, and what basis do we have for believing that such a desolation took place?

kepler

Bobcat,

A book I have here (Georges Roux's Ancient Iraq) puts it this way ( based on Wiseman's Chronicles of the Assyrian Kings):

"A fragmentary tablet in the British Museum alludes to a campaign against pharaoh Amasis in 568 BC and mentions an Egyptian town, but this cannot be regarded as sufficient proof that the Babylonians set foot in the Nile valley."

Egypt was conquered by Esarhaddon, but this did not last long. By the end of the same century Egyptian Necho was battling with Josiah.

I would also note that Ezekiel seems to exaggerate the exploits of Nebuchadnezzar. Tyre was a 13 year siege with inconclusive results. It was Alexander of Macedon who "desolated" it. Yet for two chapters Ezekiel seems to write a eulogy for it. In chapter 29, in which Nebuchadnezzar directs his agression against Egypt by Ezekiel's account, my annotated NJB observes in a footnote:

i. March-April 571. Chronologically the last of the divine utterances in Ezekiel, it completes or revises his earlier ones. As compensation for his partial failure against Tyre, v. 18 cf. of 26:7, Nebuchadnezzar is given permission to plunder Egypt which he invaded in 568, see Jer. 43:13. As agent of divine punishment he deserves his wages.

This story gets complicated since Jeremiah 25:12 also says that the King of Babylon is condemned and is to suffer desolation forever immediately after Jerusalem's 70-year desolation is done. While I would say that Jeremiah's prophecy was simply confounded by history, Ezekiel appears more to be a mouthpiece for Babylonian policy and expectations. Marduk's views of these campaigns were probably quite similar.

51

Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech

by kepler in

in another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.

concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .

to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .

kepler

Having had some time to reflect on my earlier suggestion about Luke 21:32, that “this generation could be placed in “truly I tell you” clause - I don’t think it would work. So far as I can tell, it would have to be an indirect objec with the appropriate inflectiont, unless someone can think of something equivalent to the Latin vocative. Were that the case, it would have been noticed by now. But let’s take a look at it anyway.

NJB: “In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away all will have taken place.”

Not an exact transliteral, phonetic rendering of the Greek:

Amin lego imti oti ou mi paralethi i genea avti pareleisontai.

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Slimboyfat has offered another example of Luke's writing which uses “simeron”- this day or today.

Acts 20:26

“Therefore I declare to you this day that I am not responsible for the blood of any of you.”

Dioti martiromai imin en ti simeron imeraoti katharos eimi apo tou aimatos.

Notice that “simeron” and “imera” appear side by side, strong numbers 4594 and 2250 respectively. They are “today” and “day”.

Like it has been said about Freudian psychology, sometimes a train going into a tunnel is a train going into a tunnel. In this case we have Paul testifying what he is going to do on this day. I don't think it would make any sense for him to say at the end of the day he was going to declare - unless he was running for political office in this country. But nontheless, "today the day" structure tells us something about what an oath or declaration should look like, no?

To be literal minded about translation it could be said, “I declare to you today, this day,…” And if Luke had intended to write in Greek Jesus’s declaration on the cross in the same manner, had it been spoken in Aramaic or not, I've got firm ground to say that he would express such a thing in the same manner.

Luke does use the word “cimeron” ( I think of westerns like “Cimarron”) in about 8 other verses in Acts and 11 times in the Gospel. I think most of the cases are simply statements of fact, but some are related to time limits such as I argue for in the case on the cross.

Luke 22:34: I say to you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, before you deny me three times.

Luke 22:61 Before the cock crows today,

These are complex expressions to transliterate, but it is clear that the redundant “imera” is absent.

Bobcat,

Yes, I do think it strange that Gospel writers use the expression regularly and the writer of Revelations does not use it at all. Yet each is recording the words of Jesus Christ. Admittedly, the Gospel speech of Jesus in resurrection does not resort to these expression, but what is included in these encounters is very brief. And so far I haven't found any quote among the epistles related to this manner of speech either.

About Revelations, the current exercise with "Truly I say to you..." is illustrative of many other differences in vocabulary and perspective between this book and the Gospel of St. John. For this topic I will leave it at that.

284

ABOUT TERRY

by Quentin in

jw
friends

terry was admitted to the hospital yesterday.

he has a severe case of cellulites which has affected his neck glands.

his face and neck are very swollen.

kepler

Terry,

Good Lord, that last post sounds better than yesterday.

Do you know how many hand wringers you now have on staff? Wow. We were all hoping there would be a break.

Maybe at the very least you can get a break from the Turner Broadcast Channel. Can you play DVDs? Order out.

Just brain-storming: Immune reactions are strange even when the system is brand new and works well. As a kid I remember being able to discover poison ivy where there didn't seem to be any. Now and then I can still come up with a hives like reaction to something. One time it was an orange a day instead of an apple. Too much vitamin C or the spray on the orange skins? Off the wall, yes. But if it is simple as removing something in the environment, the quicker it's found the better.

Good luck!

Kepler

51

Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech

by kepler in

in another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.

concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .

to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .

kepler

Bobcat,

Much of what you say on the two camps seems to rest on where the audience seemed to think the dead would go. True, there was at least one orthodoxy on that, but according to Josephus it was not unanimous. Pharisees and Saduccees were not in agreement. But nonetheless, with regard to preparation for death, there was the law.

Another point. The narratives go on to show that Jesus returned. We never hear from thief again. And no one asks. But yet a kingdom has been claimed to have been founded.

Leolaia,

You are certainly not obliged to come up with an answer to the riddle about Revelation. You've done more than enough or that I can even assimilate already. But I will continue to claim a more general topic definition than simply the issue of Luke 23:43. Finger-printing would not be worth study if it was a method that was destined to be used only once.

51

Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech

by kepler in

in another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.

concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .

to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .

kepler

Hello, Folks. At the very least, signing in to let you know I'm still reading/listening to the replies. It just gets more difficult to provide detailed or cogent replies as this topic goes on. But I'll try.

Wonderment,

I don't think your questions are silly. But rather, they are quite in order. Looking from the outside in, my take is that no one publicizes this difference in the NWT from others. On another recent topic about differences in the NWT, the verse did not even come up until I brought it up; and the means of analysis we are discussing now was courtesy of Bobcat. Though on a couple of questions such as why did the "good" thief identify with Christ, a lot is explained within the few verses of chapter 23 in which the incident is described. The other thief berated Jesus to the effect of something like don't just stand there: get us out this mess. The "good" thief seems to act as a peacemaker. But taking into account that the official WTS version of this story is one where paradise is promised but much delayed, and that's where nearly all this forum refugees are from, a sense of confusion sounds like as good a place to start as any in contemplating this story. Let us all know later what else you notice.

Slimboyfat,

I mean to contribute to you other topic about history. Mostly it's an arbitrary stack, but sometimes complementing these discussions. But for now, what can I say about your counter arguments?

While "today" as a temporal qualifier was used only one time in the expressions, we did have a couple of others time related expressions. Matt 19:28. I'll probably be answerable to Greek students about this one, but based on the English, if the NWT were consistent about this it would place "this generation" in front of the comma too in Matt 24:34. The same with John 5:25 concerning the hour.

But then there is the question of Luke's perspective. You say that he is very inclined to speak in Greek like a Hebrew writer of Deuteromy would. Now how can I argue about that one? It's a proposition I had never heard before one way or another. Well, we are led to understand that he was a friend and associate of Paul. And Paul, if anyone, certainly liked to quote Deuteronomy to explain why Christ had come to earth to wipe away a sin. But I have also heard one rabbi say that Luke sometimes was a loose cannon when it came to Paul's arguments. In his first chapter he describes Zechariah, the father of John, as such a good guy that he was "blameless". Now how did that happen?

Some introductory passages I have in my NJB ( which is not aware of our discussion) describe Matthew as the most concerned of the Gospel writers with the fulfilling of the promises of the OT for the people of Israel. And later it describes Luke writing in "sophisticated" Greek to Greeks and Gentiles about Christ's mercy and forgiveness. The OT element is in his origin and upbringing.... Luke and Acts were at one time pre-Bible a book ( directed to Theophilius)... But any of this does not really settle whether Christ meant that the thief would be in paradise today.

But on the other hand, does the argument remain what Christ said and meant or what Luke had written and intended?

This is problematic since neither Mark or Matthew mention this incident. When Jesus also says, "Father, into thy hands I commend myself," one might wonder if things in Luke are what ought to have appeared in the other accounts but they neglected to mention. Why? If Luke's Greek is beyond reproach to scholars, it would seem odd that he would speak it like an anonymous Deuteronomy scribe. Perhaps someone will be able to elaborate further on that, but I can't. But if this incident ends up in the Gospels as nearly an after thought, could it possibly be that Luke wanted to describe how the heavenly kingdom's naturalization and immigration service would really work: a sojourn in Hades with a VIP guide and then report to a footlocker to await the dawn of the next dispensationalist age? Or is the thief right away as in Luke 20:36, "the same as the angels"?

I can easily enough tell the difference between which two interpretations were then considered glad tidings. Same with anybody nowadays showing up at my door.

Leolaia,

I can follow the Latin better than the Greek, owing to more formal training in the former. hodie me cum eris in paradiso - today me with you will be in paradise seems to appear frequently with Ambrose, Jerome and Augustine. That much I understand. And it would seem as though that would be a widespread belief in the western church - since it has any currency now at all. The Greek equivalent has been cited a number of times as well, but I would not want to jump to conclusions without understanding the sentences preceding, either more of the Bible text or church father commentaries. I just don't know that much Greek. Are any of the Greek patriarchs arguing for "I am telling you today,.."?

-----

The Sinaitic text I wasn't able to see at all. Visible somewhere else?

No one has anything to say about Revelations?

Kepler