kepler

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Posts by kepler

• 
  70

  New Governing Body Member: Hugo Riemer - More WT Revisionist History

  by 00DAD in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  as part of the wt's recent push to get the r&f "to study and recount the history of the earthly part of jehovahs organization" there is a curious article in the from our archives featurette of the august 15th, 2012 watchtower.

  it offers a highly sanitized version of early jw history.

  but what is particularly strange is this revisionist history re-categorizing of an early bible student/jw, one hugo riemer.

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  kepler

  00DAD:

  Point taken. Right on! Hope 3rd parties get it too.
• 
  70

  New Governing Body Member: Hugo Riemer - More WT Revisionist History

  by 00DAD in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  as part of the wt's recent push to get the r&f "to study and recount the history of the earthly part of jehovahs organization" there is a curious article in the from our archives featurette of the august 15th, 2012 watchtower.

  it offers a highly sanitized version of early jw history.

  but what is particularly strange is this revisionist history re-categorizing of an early bible student/jw, one hugo riemer.

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  kepler

  King Solomon said:

  However, the "collective" element of the GB DOES allow them to dismiss the actions of an individual apostate member of the GB (eg Ray Franz) as actions of an individual MEMBER of the GROUP, and thus does not effect the status or performance of the whole body, as long as they cut them off (think of a salamander regenerating a limb that was amputated).

  ------

  There are still problems.

  In the case of Olin Moyle, the dismissal was the result of a private letter sent by Moyle the legal counsel to his client Rutherford, objecting to his conduct and the atmosphere of drunkeness that he promoted at Bethel. The Faith and Discrete Slave, yet to be renamed so, conducted a very public banishment of Moyle. But other than writing a letter to Rutherford, what exactly had he done? Rutherford was not objecting to his conduct of official duties such as writing appeals to the Supreme Court.

  In the case of Ray Franz, disfellowship never became an EXPLICIT matter of doctrine or his conduct while he was on the Governing Board. He resigned. But he was subsequently disfellowshipped for associating with someone who disassociated himself due to providing Ray Franz shelter in a rented trailer home. No GB or FDS misconduct was identified in that process (sic). In fact, I made inquiries on another topic devoted to exactly that question: Why specifically was he disfellowshipped? No formal doctrinal accusations were made.

  So, in the case, at least, of Ray Franz, as far as I can tell, they are stuck with him. Just like the United States is stuck with the fact that Aaron Burr was once a vice president or Jefferson Davis was once the Secretary of War.

  As a consequence, in either case no actions these two individuals had taken in the course of their service can be discredited now - since they were never discredited in the first place. I presume the propaganda ministry as sophisticated as it is can manufacture an elaborate incrementally revealed lore about these two individuals, but I see no reason why anyone should accept the fallacies of their arguments a priori.

  With Ray Franz having written of the matters subsequently, since he was part of the GB, and therefore, by current argument the FDS, his accounts of GB and FDS have to be taken at face value until current members specifically deny any of the details. The only way they could do that is to be presented with what Ray Franz stated in the first place. Should they deny what Ray Franz says, however, they should be very careful indeed, lest they be detected in the course of duty of engaging in outright lies.
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  51

  Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech

  by kepler in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.

  concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .

  to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .

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  kepler

  [Luke] 23:43 et dixit illi Iesus amen dico tibi hodie mecum eris in paradiso.

  Acts 20:26, . . . quapropter contestor vos hodierna die quia mundus sum a sanguine omnium

  How do these verses read when translated from the Latin into English? (If you don't mind me asking)

  (If your Latin is rusty, mine is non-existent)

  Bobcat,

  The first one is easier than the second. Very literal:

  "and he said that Jesus Amen I say to you today with me you will be in paradise."

  The second one is tougher ( for me, at any rate), more idiomatic:

  "Wherefore to call witness you today [this] day I am clean by blood of all..."

  A rendering in English NJB:

  "And so on this very day I swear that my conscience is clear..."

  Though "conscience" and "blood" seem like an idiomatic transformation, there is also that double "today, this day" construction that was characteristic of the Greek oath as well. "Conscience", I suspect, is an evolved word of a millenium or so later. While the verb is of passive infinitive form, the pronoun "vos" is probably accusative. My situational awareness with inflected languages since high school has been mostly with Russian - and I don't think I ever had enough data from Latin homework decades back. Passive "deponent" verbs, yes; but acusative pronouns attached - does not compute.
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  32

  The 1954 Douglas Walsh Transcript--PDF!

  by Atlantis in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the douglas walsh trial 1954. the watchtower under oath.

  exposing the watchtower dictatorship over jehovah's witnesses.

  most of the researchers here need no introduction as to the "exposing" testimony recorded within this 762 page court transcript.

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  kepler

  "Has anyone had any luck with showing people this?"

  I got a hold of it several years ago and QUOTED from it. The significance of that is that I had to transcribe it into e-mail letters. The PDF is a 97 megabyte package which is a series of screen shots, not characters.

  Whether the people who have quoted excerpts above did so from the same transcription process or succeeded in obtaining a genuine copyable text would be a significant point. A text document of this size should probably be only 2-3 megabytes.

  But what material I have used, I have obtained no acknowledgment of anyone even having read it. Whatever it takes for people to snap out of a tightly bound trap, the individuals that were once close to me haven't reached that point - if they ever will.
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  51

  Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech

  by kepler in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.

  concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .

  to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .

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  kepler

  OK, we have an entry for the Coptic; unknown compiler, grammar or syntax ...?

  Here's one for Latin: compiler Jerome, in contact with contemporary Greeks; text, Vulgate.

  23:43 et dixit illi Iesus amen dico tibi hodie mecum eris in paradiso.

  My high school latin is rusty, but I understand the vocabulary and grammar perfectly. I presume someone will argue that the Vulgate was corrupted and as a result the original text MUST have been something to the contrary. But the example from Acts 20:26, in this case

  quapropter contestor vos hodierna die quia mundus sum a sanguine omnium

  presumed to the contrary, makes it look like "case closed" to me.
• 
  8

  FDS Nu Lite is most fun I've had on JWN

  by mind blown in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  until the official wts study article is out, all we can do is speculate away, kinda like a good mind bending game.

  however, they are going to have a lot of explaining to do....... i was wondering what prompted this change, but after reading this on wiki.... (highlighted is mine) the entire article is damning, making them out to be liars.

  i gather they recieved enough letters from the annointed regarding the wts claims perhaps.....?

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  kepler

  Reading the Wikipedia article on Faithful and Discreet Slave...

  Don't just read it. Copy it and archive it. Then send copies to anyone who you think should know about this. Make hard copies.

  When it comes to certain elements of knowledge, Wikipedia is even more flexible than the old Soviet Encyclopedia. Officials don't have to cut out or blacken with ink the articles they no longer like. The article drops in the electronic memory hole and the paragraphs or nearby items close ranks about the absess. If there is any truth to the last few days of discussion, the "experts" will be busy updating the old interpretation.
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  51

  Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech

  by kepler in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.

  concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .

  to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .

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  kepler

  Slimboyfat,

  Your post caught me on line while I was looking at other developments. As a result started looking at some of the sources to which you refer.

  Admittedly, for me this is a difficult one to confirm or deny. I have not been looking at Coptic or have any near term plans to get acquainted with it. But all the same, I don't think Layton Bentley's (or Bentley Layton's ?)sample translation makes a compelling case.

  To recap, we had looked at 70 or 80 cases of "truly I say to you", etc. throughout the Greek NT. Then you added another example from Acts 20:26 where "today" and "day" were used together in a construction that would convey exactly what it is supposed would be conveyed to the "good thief" - if the case were a sworn testimony as it was in the case Paul in Acts. To be clear, the Acts version of the statement had simeron and imera, the good thief version had only simeron.

  Looking up the nature of the Coptic under discussion, it is described as " a reference tool for students of the classical dialect of Sahidic which was used in literary texts between the 4th and 8th centuries". In an 5 page review of the grammar,

  Layton, Bentley A Coptic Grammar - Review of ... www.bookreviews.org/pdf/4325_4307.pdf

  The second edition of Bentley Layton's Coptic Grammar is highly recommended for students of Egyptology, Coptology, early Christian history, and textual ...

  - even though the book is praised as being of great help to students, there are also provided a string of "caveat emptors". So far as I can tell, about practically everything the author has devised.

  In the review the closest thing I can find to a summary of this view is the following:

  Setting aside broader problems associated with the parts-of-speech model and the

  ordination of clauses, Layton’s categories seem to work rather well; at the very least,

  most of them are a “useful fiction” that, even if they do not map the territory of Sahidic

  Coptic properly, indicate what the territory is and that it should be mapped. Indeed,

  Coptic Grammar offers in one volume most all of the recent advances in Coptology, so

  that the reader is presented with a linguistic theory whose whole is, perhaps, more

  significant than its parts.

  The recent interest in Coptic has been as a result of finding the Nag Hamadi manuscripts and some first cut translations thereof of so-called Gnostic Gospels. Sometime ago I ran into one enthusiast of the subject wondering what would happen if the one or two renown experts got run over by buses on the way to work. Would we still be reliant on their findings of what these texts supposedly said or could novices pick up from there? "Picking up from there?" Your citation illustrates what he was talking about.

  In short, it is hard for me to understand how Coptic texts that are not well understood will give us insight into Greek texts that have been around continuously. Greeks themselves seem never to have had an underlying suspicion about what Luke 23:43 said. The description of the Coptic in question is later than extant Greek manuscripts. Whether Coptics of this school viewed those words the same way as the WTBTS does - or that is simply a conclusion of Bentley based on his developing grammatical principles - that would be another investigation, perhaps that has been discussed some already.

  But you will also have to tell us about the intensive study that the translation department in Brooklyn has been doing on decyphering Coptic manuscripts - and drawing conclusions from them. That should be interesting too.
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  100

  2012 annual meeting notes

  by lostinthought in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  sorry for the wait guys.... .

  part one.

  moorse had the opening comments talked about historic annual meetings.. .

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  kepler

  R_O,

  Some further reflection on your Russell-pyramid question amid a jog in the fall air.

  I don't know. Perhaps these musings are too whimsical; perhaps not. But looking from the outside in, 144,000 "shares" sold over a period of millenia sounds like a pyramid scheme in itself. Someone earlier noted that twenty centuries requires 72 elect a year. And I believe there are considerable obligations BC as well as AD. For example, if Gideon had 300 men that he selected from a larger group of applicants, shouldn't they have an opportunity to be eternal astronauts too?

  There have always been problems with this number. If they stand in a square, how many elect would be on a side? To the closest integer elect?

  By tribes? Three back, four wide?

  And then nobody's counting at the quartermaster's.

  Now another thing. Why this parable? Do all the parables have validation in church offices?

  Aside from the fact that right now there are more than five, why not, as the NWT says, "5 discreet virgins"? They were bridesmaids actually since there was only one bridegroom. How a foolish virgin maintains virgin status very long, if that's how they are defined as characters, that also presents a conundrum, but never mind. In the narrative they were also just as hypothetical and the next metaphor in Matthew's narrative.

  If the trinity is supposedly manufactured out of whole cloth ( and I suggest reading Genesis Chapter 18, the apparition at Mamre by Abraham before you decide), then what about the faithful and discreet slave as a church office?
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  100

  2012 annual meeting notes

  by lostinthought in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  sorry for the wait guys.... .

  part one.

  moorse had the opening comments talked about historic annual meetings.. .

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  kepler

  R_O,

  Don't have an answer for that last question about Russell, but have a few questions of my own.

  If a member [sic]of the Faithful and Discreet Slave decides to retire, then would it not be unseemly for the remainder of Faithful and Discreet Slave to hound that individual to death, disfellowshipping all his associates and eventually disfellowshipping him? I mean, I don't see visions of doves and light from heaven in such accounts. I see Politburo machinations like Stalin going after Bukharin or Trotskij. Or maybe Khrushchev deciding what to do with Beria.

  When we examine this crazy lexicon that is invented and continually revised - why not join the fun and come up with some of our own? At least there are some obvious metaphors.

  A number of governing board members became inactive beside Ray Franz and Olin Moyle. But the ones that probably deserved the millstones around their necks got to retire into obscurity like Molotov, supervising a Siberian hydroelectric plant, or Khrushchev, subsequently, promoting hydroponics as a pensioner. But I have to admit that despite the secrecy in preparation "Khrushchev Remembers" caused less of a stir in the Politburo than "CoC" did among the Faithful and Discreet Slave (?) excuse

  It would appear that the revision of the term "faithful and wise servant" to faithful and discreet slave" came sometime after the 1934 yearbook. During the period of the Olin Moyle banishment which term did the then extant authorities clothes themselves in?

  Is it not strange as well that disfellowship and the FDS are so intricately wound together? Only a few days earlier I was listening to RayPublisher's trial recordings in which the Judicial Committee members were asking him repeatedly (circa September 25) about how he felt about the Faithful and Discreet Slave? Do you belief in his authority? We have pledged an oath to the FDS...

  Meanwhile, those who considered themselves either the one or part of the FDS were busily preparing for a RE-DEFINITION of the FDS. If historically it had been assumed either an individual or a class, now it was going to be... members of a board. These are individuals who are hardly known to the rank & file, hardly even traceable in public records - and I am not even sure how many there are. Seven? Eight? Does number 8 count or is the re-organization intended to deal with just such circumstances as his background provided?

  But going back to the trial video, would that not be a pertinent point in any matter of jurisprudence, even in a star chamber? Should not the articles of faith be the same when you exit as when you arrived? Since I did not detect a specific charge in that proceeding or a specific accuser, it would seem that the FDS itself would have a specific nature for the question to be of any relevance.

  ...Other than its presumed authority.
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  100

  2012 annual meeting notes

  by lostinthought in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  sorry for the wait guys.... .

  part one.

  moorse had the opening comments talked about historic annual meetings.. .

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  kepler

  Bobcat,

  Thanks for that terrific survey. It looks like a lot of work.

  In bringing up the issue "faithful and wise servant" vs. "faithful and discreet", I was acting on my notion that this another of the many tortured translations of the NWT. Tortured like "torture stake", "Today, I say to you..." etc.

  I am sure there was a reason it was introduced, just like the two other examples above. Maybe it had something to do with the Olin Moyle issue - but I have been able to follow the case or connections on that in detail. Perhaps somebody else has. But for myself, I see no reason to latch on to the "faithful and wise/discreet servant" as anything more than what it was at face value: a parable.

  Saying that, it did occur to me to look back at one of my favorite sources on the thoughts of Joseph Rutherford, the 1934 Yearbook. I did a search through my PDF for the word "discreet". Nada.

  Now how about faithful?

  The yearbook had a lengthy review of geographical "mission work" ( Germany for instance), but the remainder was a succession of daily meditations for the 365 days of the 1934 year. Each started with a Bible passage and then a paragraph from the Watchtower from the preceding year prior to publication. In these paragraphs, beside repeated raps about Armageddon, the word faithful might be used several times.

  Occasionally it was used with "faithful and WISE servant".

  I am attaching examples from the first six months of the year. Please excuse some of the optical character reading failures.

  Perhaps new light will shed more light on the society's first "Faithful and discreet slave". I'm sure it will help make the new doctrine more clear...

  February 11 (119)

  They that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare.

  --1 Tim. 6: 9.

  During the Elijah period there was a class that

  stressed the importance of "character development",

  deeming that to be great gain and therefore godliness,

  because it would insure the developer a place in heaven.

  Another class, meek and humble, desired only to

  please the Lord, and while these looked forward also

  to a place in heaven, and that properly, their chief

  and great desire was to serve Jehovah and Christ Jesus.

  At Christ’s coming to the temple for judgment

  the two classes began to be made manifest, to wit, the

  class moved by selfishness and which class quickly

  developed into the "evil servant" class; and the other

  class, moved by unselfish devotion to God and his kingdom

  and which class Jesus formed into the "faithful

  and wise servant". To this faithful class the Lord

  committed his testimony on earth, and he invites them

  to enter into his joy. W 12/15/33

  February 14 (209)

  Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the

  host, and by him the dady sacrifice was taken away, and

  the place of his sanctuary was cast down ---Dan. 8: 11.

  This prophecy refers to something that is based

  upon the ransom sacrifice, growing out of it and in

  addition thereto, to wit, the dally, continual presentation

  of the bodies of God’s faithful servant class,

  publicly giving testimony to the name of Jehovah God

  and his kingdom. Mark that the British-American

  empire system, which is "Christendom", in which

  both Catholics and Protestants operate together, did

  take away the daily presentation of the testimony of

  Jehovah and his kingdom, and did thus cast down the

  sanctuary class to the ground; and this was done in

  the year 1918. Jehovah’s servants are not to cease

  voluntarily their testimony, but must continually present

  it. "My praise shall be continually of thee."

  --t’s. 71: 6. W 7/1/33

  February

  February 27 (148)

  For, lo, thine enemies . . . have said, Come, and let

  us cut them of/from being a nation; that the name of

  Israel may be no more in remembrance.--Ps. 83: 2, 4.

  Now the facts show beyond all question of doubt

  that the papal religious system, the Protestant religious

  system, the "evil servant" or "man of sin"

  class, and all other institutions of Satan’s commercial

  organization are in a conspiracy against Jehovah’s

  faithful servant class . Satan knows that the faithful

  servant class are God’s representatives and prospective

  members of Jehovah’s new nation. Therefore Satan

  seeks to prevent such from becoming a nation.

  This is another evidence that Jehovah’s witnesses have

  God’s approval and that all religions, religious workers

  and other agencies that oppose the work of giving testimony

  to God’s kingdom are a commercial organization,

  carried forward under Satan’s deceptive influence

  and direction to defame Jehovah’s name ’s name and

  turn man away from ttlm. W 12/15/33

  March 28 (312)

  Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; and give thanks to

  the memorial of his holiness.--Ps. 97: 12, margin.

  The kingdom and the King having come, together

  with the time of his joy, the memorial cup now symbolizes

  not merely a potion of suffering unto death,

  but also the potion of joy, gladness and cheer into

  which the King who once shed his blood has now entered

  and into which he invites his good and faithful

  servants on earth to enter. The bread loaf symbolizes

  not only Jesus’ body once broken, but also the oneness

  now existing between all who are "partakers [members]

  of that one bread [loaf] " and the oneness of all

  the body members of Christ with their Head now present

  at the temple. What strength of heart this unity

  imparts to all who eat worthily at the memorial! It

  is indeed now the day of deliverance, the deliverance

  which comes together with the everlasting vindi cation

  of the memomal name, JEHOVAH. W 3/15/33

  April 17 (92)

  IMkeurise a~so these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise

  dominion, an~ speak ew7 of dignities.---Jude 8,

  No man properly takes honor or dlgmty to himself.

  Jehovah has declared his purpose to give his specific

  honor or dignity to his "servant". Nor does it appear

  from Scripture that Jehovah gives honor to individuals

  aside from his beloved Son. While Jude used the

  word "dignities" in connection with creatures, yet

  manifestly the reference is to the office filled by creatures,

  and not to the creatures themselves as such. The

  "faithful and wise servant " class on earth is counted

  a part of Jehovah’s ’elect servant’. It is that "servant"

  to whom Jehovah gives honor and glory and who

  therefore as such "servant" is a dignity. Evil speech

  against Jehovah’s "servant" is therefore speaking

  against God, because against God’s honored one. The

  "evil servant" class hesitates not to speak against

  God’s "faithful servant" class on earth. W 2/15/33

  May 25 (98)

  Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me

  with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield; but

  I come to thee in the name of the Lord.--1 Sam. 17: 45.

  Prior to the Lord’s coming to the temple the consecrated

  were merely units, known only to Jehovah

  and Christ Jesus. With his coming, and the gathering

  together of the saints, the faithful are made one unit.

  The reason for this gathering appears to be this: (1)

  That Jehovah would bring his own into unity so that

  they could be dealt with as one; (2) that he would

  have a people for his name who must be his witnesses;

  and (3) that he would make manifest his "faithful

  servant " class to earth’s rulers and by so doing demonstrate

  his power to produce a people on earth that

  would be faithful to him under severe tests and thus

  maintain their integrity. Thin people, the remnant,

  must be his champions in the day of battle and hence

  the true David class on earth that is openly opposed

  to the monster "man of sin". W 2/15/33

  June 28 (193)

  And when they had received it [the penny], they tour.

  m~red against the goodman of the house. Matt. 20:11.

  Th6 Watchtower of August 15 and September 1,

  1932, made clear that elective offices of elders and

  deacons are not authorized by the Scriptures; that,

  the time having come for all to be one in Christ (and

  which was pictured by the twenty-four elders), there

  is now no distinction among the members of the

  "faithful and wise servant " class. (Rev. 4: 4) All

  who are in the temple, and hence at unity in Christ,

  are elders in fact, and are not made elders by votes of

  other creatures. Their maturity in Christ has brought

  them to that condition. These truths being brought

  to light, there came forward a class of men and their

  followers who considered that they were receiving

  less wages than their service deserved. The new name,

  Jehovah’s witnesses, put all on a common level. The

  selfish ones wanted special recognition. Not receiving

  it, they began to murmur and complain. W 12/1/33