Posts by kepler

4

Revised New world translation in other languages

by TheWonderofYou in

jw
friends

i think the translators are now very busy or even in the endspurt to present next year the editions in many other long expected languages like spanish, french, dutch, german...perhaps there will be even two spanish versions.. this will spark a new fire in the hearts of the publishers to go out and evangelize using the bible.

month to month a new translation is available on jw library app, like portoguese since july.

but they will not use the paper in door-to-door but the app.. insiders have already access to parts of many of those coming translations and are very happy with the translation comments like "really beautiful translated" are typical..

kepler

Gee. Wonder what they will do with Greek and Hebrew editions?

24

Your thoughts on the Libertarian party

by James Mixon in

jw
friends

i really like what governors w.weld and g. johnson bring to the table.. not familiar with the libertarian party and will do some investigation,.

but any thoughts on this party..

kepler

JM,

Know several of them locally or from correspondence with other groups. Like many movements people are drawn to this one for legitimate reasons. At least one novel that could serve as a primer on libertarianism was written by Robert Heinlein ( The Moon is a Harsh Mistress). Heinlein had a way of examining social ideas by allowing them to develop into future societies - in this case, a lunar colony about to go independent later this century.

Particular issues that my libertarian friends pick up on are "progressivism", the nanny state and the abuse of rights by police in their search and seizures or treatment of suspects.

But more to the point this year. Governors Johnson ( Interviewed recently in the NYer) and Weld served New Mexico and Massachusetts without scandal, controversy or partisan rancor. This is something that makes them very attractive to me this election year. I don't see them with much likelihood of winning, but if a 3rd or 4th party attracted enough votes, the likelihood of the two principal candidates sailing through the electoral process would be diminished.

Donald Trump's shortcomings - one distasteful anecdote after another. His persona: like Berlusconi in Italy, Peron in Argentina or Hugo Chavez in Venezuela or the Presidential winner of the '36 election in Sinclair Lewis's "It Can't Happen Here." (This deserves an asterisk. He wrote it in response to his wife Dorothy Thompson's impressions of HItler in '33 or '34, something to which Rutherford was completely tone deaf to or accepting. He would have fit nicely though in the "Elmer Gantry" cast though.)

So then what do we have in contrast to Mr Trump from the other side? Ms Clinton has her good sides and bad. And were there a decent Republican candidate other than Trump, she would probably be defeated now that all sides of what she offers have been examined. But in this case of "trumping", it's like the "Game of Scissors, Paper and "Stones". As recently reported, HRC's basic Methodist do-gooding beliefs are credible, but on the other hand we have someone who with her husband has amassed enormous wealth for this 3rd run on the presidency. For veterans such as myself, I take the e-mail server issue seriously - and her denials - and the likelihood that many secrets that would be on them were compromised. That Mr & Ms Clinton did not separate and divorce might be good in one context, but it also reflects an inability to face real problems. Bill's endorsement of her at the Convention is an emotional moment - but such references ( also with the Trumps) are not the sort you put on any job application - why for the Presidency. What were convention goers smoking. As a "Democrat", the Clintons seem to be of the machine variety. There were over a dozen heavy hitting Republicans in contention and they all shot themselves off. Clinton ran against nobody with the DNC backing.

It all kind of hurts. Hence you can why I am considering the same alternative. Not because I anticipate liberarianism's post apocalyptic joys.

13

HOW the WatchTower leaders flipped the script on Christianity

by TerryWalstrom in

worship of jesus was declared to be an act of idolatry!.

we are going to examine the cataclysmic changeover in christian teaching exploding inside the watchtower religion in the early 50’s by exploring a background of the history of jesus’ place in christianity.

jw teaching about the nature of jesus’ importance in the salvation of mankind will be compared with christian history.

kepler

Just an add on to the my above post. It appears that several paragraphs about dissenting communities distribution in time and space with respect to 325 AD simply vanished into cyber space. Also some remarks about how the exportation of English dissent to America gave that brand a higher representation than would have existed otherwise.

But I've got to get back to work on other things, so I let that go for now.

13

HOW the WatchTower leaders flipped the script on Christianity

by TerryWalstrom in

worship of jesus was declared to be an act of idolatry!.

we are going to examine the cataclysmic changeover in christian teaching exploding inside the watchtower religion in the early 50’s by exploring a background of the history of jesus’ place in christianity.

jw teaching about the nature of jesus’ importance in the salvation of mankind will be compared with christian history.

kepler

Terry,

All along have read your reflections avidly on the basis that you are on to something - whether I'm entirely in agreement or not. But this one is particularly good. As an outsider looking in on the phenomenon of JW, it appears to me quite often as a shape shifter. But your working thesis looks like a possible way to pin it to the wall. So take my comments below as explorations or a maybe a couple of refinements (e.g., dissent origins).

Had I been living 400 years ago and confronted on the question of the Trinity, I would have kept my head down. Today, looking at the controversy, I would rather say that I can sympathize with the debaters about how how difficult it is to sort out such a dilemma by studying what's recorded in scriptures. And then looking at established churches today, I sense that many behave much the same. Despite the importance of Jesus Christ in say the theology and day to day teachings of Baptists, to give one example, as near as I can tell they originated with the teachings of a certain Arminius in the Netherlands who it would be difficult to claim in the ranks of the Trinitarians. So, if they are confused or confusing, why shouldn't I be as well?

But Christianity is also a philosophy of life. There is a Pre and Post Christ measure of things - and we happen to live in the after period. Our conduct is measured in what would Christ say, do or think - and our society here did not form until after Augustine had written his City of God. A universal church and a city of God were much akin to establishment of a caliphate that followers of Muhammad would institute a few centuries later. It was an attempt to order life on earth until Christ's return, either as implied in Gospels, Epistles, Revelations or some combination thereof. Paul and Peter's interpretations were more administrative day to day. Something like Hebrews would be higher flying.

Now flash forward 1500 years and we find that in western Europe there was a pervasive feeling that the society was corrupt and erring - and democratization of the scriptures would engage more of the population in solving problems. It wasn't that the Bible was not read. It was read in special editions and distribution was limited. Moreover, what histories of the Renaissance subtly describe, western Europeans generally did not understand Greek. They often got their Greek classics after they were translated from Arabic to Latin via Andalusia. Who had time to write, much less approve vernacular translations even if the clerical and civil authorities had been well disposed toward them?

But it happened and the result was something like a vampire movie. The townsmen/reformers used the Book much like the vampire killers would use a crucifix to ward off a vampire; in this case it was the established church.

Everything was in the Old and New Testament. Every abuse of the present day could be fought with a Biblical citation. And consequently, everything that happened within the interval between the first and 16th century that was assumed a part of the City of God was now relegated to illegitimacy or to nothing. Who was more important? King David in Kings campaigning against Saul or Thomas Aquinas attempting to summarize the knowledge of God? To test this question, monitor fundamentalist radio broadcasts for a few hours.

And then, when you examine the editing of the original scriptures, you have to wonder if this did not happen before( circa 700 to 400 BC and onward) as well.

10

Graph of world population (from 10,001BC to 2015)

by Fernando in

jw
friends

what do you make of this graph?.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graph+population+of+earth.

.

kepler

A new type of Rorschach test?

The graph provided could mean a lot of things, but the further left you go, it's based more and more on conjecture.

Near the origin it is difficult to tell what the population is supposed to be on a log scale of millions: Nearly 1 million or below one million? How much below? And based on what? The End of Ice Age census respondents?

Who drew up the graph? Were they making estimates from historical extrapolations, archeological inferences?

A couple of leveling off points might be due to events such as the Bronze Age collapse around 1200 BC, the collapse of the Roman West and the Plague of Justinian around 500 - AD. World wide plague in the 14th century and "anti-urban programs" originating in Central Asia directed by the Chengis Khan & sons - you would figure they would reflect as well, if 14th century plague reduced populations by a third to a half.

...But that doesn't explain the abrupt stop that Slimboyfat noticed.

Oddly enough, during that period, in the MidEast there was some long term consolidation of Empires under Persian control - which shifted to a Hellenic "commonwealth. Amid all that, one of the observations of the Thucydides about the Peloponnesian (~430 to 410 BC) War was the outbreak of plague. It could be that the communications made available by land empires and sea-going vessels for contagions, levying of large armies taking farm workers from out of the fields, bad harvests and intense plagues spread from one end of Eurasia to another - were worse on population numbers than the continuous fighting preceding it in the Levantine and Mesopotamia.

Or that the leveling off is simply questionable.

It could have been done by a geography department student with a pencil and a guess.

27

Proof that Daniel was written 400 years after the events it describes and how much it gets wrong

by purrpurr in

i've been studying the bible anew and have just realised that the writer of daniel gets the kings of babylon completely wrong and confused.

he says that nebuchadnezzar was succeeded by his son belshazzar .

then along comes good old cyrus the great who liberates the jews.. yet this is wrong!

kepler

A few sections earlier in Thucydides (Book 1, section or paragraph 13) :

"Subsequently, the Ionians attained to great naval strength in the reign of Cyrus, the first king of the Persians, and of his son Cambyses, and while they were at war with the former, commanded the sea around Ionia."

Then in Book 1, paragraph 14)

"In deed it was only shortly before the Persian war and the death of Darius the successor of Cambyses, that the Sicillian tyrants and Corcyraens aquired any large number of tiremes. For after these there were no navies of any account in Hellas till the expedition of Xerxes."

Some translations of Thucydides carefully avoid referring to Medes, but it is as clear as day in the Greek and occurs by my count at least 50 times. Maybe the translators just wanted to let sleeping dogs lie.

27

Proof that Daniel was written 400 years after the events it describes and how much it gets wrong

by purrpurr in

i've been studying the bible anew and have just realised that the writer of daniel gets the kings of babylon completely wrong and confused.

he says that nebuchadnezzar was succeeded by his son belshazzar .

then along comes good old cyrus the great who liberates the jews.. yet this is wrong!

kepler

This is a topic I can't help but hail in. But I am having trouble with my e-mail link, so I'll have to be brief.

The material that Perry provides says that the issue of Darius the Mede is one of the more difficult to solve and then labors mightily at it. But there is an answer and it's crucial.

Look in Thucydides and Herodotus.

In the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides account of strife among his contemporary 5th century BC Greeks, he states in book 1 section 18.

"Not many years after the deposition of the tyrants, the battle of Marathon was fought between the Medes and Athenians."

Who was the king of Persia? Darius.

Who was his son who shows up ten years later? Xerxes.

Who described him as the King of the Medes? Herodotus, also cited by Perry's source.

2

Knock at the door to share a thought about those that could possibly have passed on

by kepler in

morning visit by two pioneers who wanted to tell me about promise of bodily eternal life in revelations and then a quick cross reference to psalms.

i asked about the great leap between two texts, but all they could explain was that the two were written before and after the life of christ.

that was certainly not telling me anything i didn't already know, as i pointed out, and not a reason to call me away from my chores.

kepler

Doc,

Considering that there is a contemporaneous thread about how people who are mourning losses of family members are considered targets for these visits, I am vexed with myself for not pointing that out at that time. Years ago, I had taken some instruction due to a member of my family deciding to return to their JW roots. The study text was "What the Bible Really Teaches". That too seemed to emphasize early on the sadness of death and how a stop was going to be put to it. But the argument there too was flawed. If the matter is my making a choice for this faith, but the fate of those surrounding me depends on the same thing, then those that have already passed cannot be changed.

So, in effect ( to my unschooled mind anyway) the entry point about those who have been lost is a bait and switch. And what will follow will be a hop scotch through Bible passages with a skewed perspective, followed by an eternity of wandering among door knockers and door bells with similar, prepared entrapping texts.

2

Knock at the door to share a thought about those that could possibly have passed on

by kepler in

morning visit by two pioneers who wanted to tell me about promise of bodily eternal life in revelations and then a quick cross reference to psalms.

i asked about the great leap between two texts, but all they could explain was that the two were written before and after the life of christ.

that was certainly not telling me anything i didn't already know, as i pointed out, and not a reason to call me away from my chores.

kepler

Morning visit by two pioneers who wanted to tell me about promise of bodily eternal life in Revelations and then a quick cross reference to Psalms. I asked about the Great Leap between two texts, but all they could explain was that the two were written before and after the life of Christ. That was certainly not telling me anything I didn't already know, as I pointed out, and not a reason to call me away from my chores. I found myself becoming quickly annoyed but only figured out why after they had left. Since they were searching to see if I had lost anyone and was in mourning, my subconscious had already connected the fact that any textual consolation they offered would not apply to those already lost (e.g., my deceased parents who had nothing to do with the Org - I don't see how they were offering any hope of resurrection for them - only condemnation to be revealed after fruitless further study). So when I asked why they leaped from one verse to the next, they said that it was all connected. How did they know? Because it was all inspired by God. Was that not circular reasoning, I asked. "Why, yes." the elder of the two conceded. And do you not "interpret" this text by such connections and skips? They could see I was annoyed and duly noted. In other words as far as they were concerned, I was rude. I said that I was feeling fine until they had arrived and had not invited them, especially since I was about to chauffer someone to their job and could not provide any illumination to their verses. They left in a huff.

13

Was Jesus really a Jehovah`s Witness ? He never identified himself as such , in word or deed.

by smiddy in

also he never chastised the jews for not identifying themselves as jehovah`s witnesses following isaiah`s statement at ch.43 :10-12 , so many years before hand.. and he had ample opportunity to do so on numerous occasions .. jesus himself never used the divine name /jehovah or any other equivalent , in any of his sayings attributed to him by his contemporaries .. sure he acknowledged god as his father and that he did his fathers will , but he never acknowledged him by a personal name such as jehovah or anything like it.. and lets not forget acts 11:26 it was first in antioch that followers of jesus by divine providence were to be called christians , not jehovah`s witnesses,.

smiddy.

kepler

Need some identifying characteristics:

Did he go door to door distributing literature?

And with whom?

From which Kingdom Hall?

How did he get along with the Elders?