Posts by kepler

21

TIL - 537 BC is in the Bible - and more

by berrygerry in

from an apologist site:.

http://thirdwitness.com/607_bce/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/realissue.html.

hence, counting back from 537 bce (the year the bible says the jews returned home) for a full seventy years, we arrive at the year 607 bce.. .

kepler

Ever notice when the construction of the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem was supposedly kicked off?

Here's an on-line description:

"The Second Temple was an important Jewish Holy Temple (Hebrew: בֵּית־הַמִּקְדָּשׁ הַשֵּׁנִי‎‎, Beit HaMikdash HaSheni) which stood on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem during the Second Temple period, between 516 BCE and 70 CE. According to Judeo-Christian tradition, it replaced Solomon's Temple (the First Temple), which was destroyed by the Neo-Babylonian Empire in 586 BCE, when Jerusalem was conquered and a portion of the population of the Kingdom of Judah was taken into exile in Babylon."

Now, are you looking for 70 years?

Actually, it was Sennecharib that condemned Babylon to a 70 year desolation. And then Esarhaddon came up with a clever way to rescind it. So 70 years had been kind of a middle eastern standard when authorities were severely provoked.

But let's see. What was 70 years before 516 BC?... Did I mention the date?

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

kepler

Admittedly, missed more than 400 entries between 1st and current page. However:

It would seem that "evolution is, ergo atheism reigns" arguments rely greatly on physical law or biological observation. Mechanistic in the same sense as Marxism. That's meant to illustrate, not to take offense at.

But what appears absent, unless I missed something in the middle which was uncharacteristic, is consideration of the Descartes proposition: "I think, therefore I am" (cogito, ergo sum).

Why is it possible for us to think and have conscientiousness? Has that aspect of existence been revealed to us by natural science or physical law? I know or assume I have it,and I suspect that most of us in this discussion link think similarly - including Cofty. Maybe evolutionary theorists don't mind this one, but it bothers cyberneticists, cosmologists, neurologists, physicists and others. Ever run across the book "The Emperor's New Mind" by Roger Penrose. He's not a evolutionary biologist (nor an evangelist) but he does have a physical science credential or two.

Artificial intelligence of the Turing type does not necessarily mean you have conscientiousness. It means you have someone on the other end of a phone call fooled about whom they are talking to. No one. Now maybe Penrose thinks this dilemma can be solved by discovering another exotic particle such as a Higgs boson, but I doubt it. There's something odd about us and many of our animal friends. If I look at the world through the window of my senses, I suspect that you do too and so do many of our counterparts.

Where did that come from?

And given that, is human kind the apex of such evolutionary counter enthropic flowdown?

Could there be other examples elsewhere?

Could it flow down from a higher source?

Can something out there even beyond time and space have a similar sense of conscientiousness but orders of magnitude higher, one that permeates creation and beyond it?

That we exist at all suggests a greater purpose. If there isn't any readily apparent, then perhaps it is part of the plan to make it so via our minds and hearts.

7

MOVIE REVIEW; SILENCE (A story about Faith, Martyrs, Apostates, and Stupidity)

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

silence (movie review)_________.

unless you are a catholic, ex-catholic, an evangelical christian, or a total apostate to your former religion or church--this film is not for you!_____.

martin scorsese has wrought a filmwhich no 2 eyes will see in the same way.. on the surface, it is about the clash (the push back against christianity and priests by buddhists and officials particularly in nagasaki) resulting from catholic evangelism inside japan.

kepler

Another observation which I didn't have time to include.

Adrian Goldsworthy, a historian of the Roman Empire wrote "How Rome Fell" recently. His tone and focus are a bit different than say Gibbons or Michael Grant. I got to the point where he mentions some of the early Christian persecutions just a night or two ago. I believe it was Decius following up on Pliny's reports of the 2nd century ...

Anyway, there were remarkable similarities to the approach of the Japanese, but the enforcement was only sporadic. There were symbolic acts of apostacy in public places and targets were offered two or three chances before the shoe was dropped.

Goldsworthy suggested that the Romans saw Christians as a public morale problem in the face of other threats to the Empire ( Eastern enemies, barbarian incursions, plague...). Similar to the Japanese in the film but not with the decade after decade resolve in every prefecture. Not everyone was on the same page as can be inferred by Constantine's position. Evidently he saw more evidence for a Roman civic mindset in 4th century Christians than in the mindset of the Roman Empire's urban masses. Plus they were literate, writing reams ( or the goatskin equivalent) of apologies, histories and debates among themselves. It's hard to get in the mind of the Japanese rulers at the time, save that they didn't like anything that was coming ashore from tthe outside world.

7

MOVIE REVIEW; SILENCE (A story about Faith, Martyrs, Apostates, and Stupidity)

by TerryWalstrom in

jw
friends

silence (movie review)_________.

unless you are a catholic, ex-catholic, an evangelical christian, or a total apostate to your former religion or church--this film is not for you!_____.

martin scorsese has wrought a filmwhich no 2 eyes will see in the same way.. on the surface, it is about the clash (the push back against christianity and priests by buddhists and officials particularly in nagasaki) resulting from catholic evangelism inside japan.

kepler

Terry,

Nice review and insight - connection to Conrad. Interestingly enough, the original novel was written by Catholic Japanese circa 1965 ( remember those days?). Also, as was pointed out to me from time to time back then, a remnant of those Christians survived into the 19th century, contacting foreign church missionaries when the country was re-opened to foreign trade and ideas. Though, despite modern Japan's enjoyment of Christmas celebration it is not a Catholic/Christian nation.

It is not the first or only time that people of faith, whatever it might be, are confronted with such no-exit situations. I got hooked several years ago on reading Alan Furst's novels about pre-World War II Europe and its covert conflicts. Constantly, the protagonists seemed to be drawn into back rooms with secret police or scary operatives and informed that there was going to be a big war between Hitler and Stalin. They would lean over the table and more or less say, "Now... on which side are you going to be?" None of the above was not acceptable in those circumstances. And I thank God that I was born three years after that conflict was all over.

24

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the February 19, 2017 WT Study (DECEMBER 2016)(ANXIETY)

by blondie in

jw
friends

blondie’s comments you will not hear at the february 19, 2017 wt study (december 2016) (throw anxiety jehovah).

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-december-2016/.

excellent general website: www.jwfacts.com .

kepler

The Anxiety theme caught my attention in a number of ways.

For the first time in my neighborhood near a NASA space center I saw a WT stand near a stoplight on a heavily trafficked boulevard. It was on a sidewalk by the light and the pedestrian traffic there was usually nil. Men and women's stands were on opposite sides of the intersecting street. I don't know what was supposed to transpire if you were a male who encountered the women;s stand first or vice versa.

So, assuming I'm medieval Everyman consumed with anxiety, I wasn't going to get out of my car with bumper to bumper behind me on a thoroughfare - and the light was too short for conversation out my left passenger window. I could possibly turn around and head back to a parking spot a block or two away and then stroll up to this dispirited display. Perhaps the other travelers would be amused by our interactions.

Or I could just leave the whole thing alone.

From time to time there are waves of the door knocking variety taking breaks at local coffee shops. Distinct and recognizable by now after about 9 years of exposure to all this. Why the recent experiment? Perhaps it was the result of the local town government suggesting some sort of compromise about hawking material. The alternatives such as shopping centers or their parking lots were private property. And then some subdivisions enforce no soliciting ordinances.

It's about a week since I've noticed the stands. Perhaps the Anxiety alert is over.

89

Trump Voters, Is This What You Voted For?

by Village Idiot in

all that talk about hillary clinton's unsecured e-mails?

read the following:.

"deagazio posted additional photos from the weekend, including one of his dining companions kissing trump on the cheek, a selfie with white house strategist steve bannon and another selfie identifying a man named rick who he says is responsible for carrying the nuclear “football,” which allows the president to authorize a nuclear attack while away from the white house.. "“this is rick,” wrote deagazio.

kepler

Voted for third party against both. Was surprised that Trump won. And was surprised at every turn of the campaign.

There is a problem though with trying to figure out what other people are thinking. If Trump never existed, I would still be inclined to search for American products I liked when I needed to purchase them - and be very worried every time another factory closed or moved its jobs out of the country. Now as to whether that was what had resonance with the voters that voted for him, it is hard to say. But on the other hand, I've listened to him lie, denigrate anything or anybody opposed to him and act like the President in Sinclair Lewis's "It Can't Happen Here".

My observation is that the GOP, VP, the Speaker of the House and many in the cabinet are competent enough to run a government and might even come to a consensus if the Chief Executive would take a hike or step out on a limb far enough to get impeached. So far he's just drawing comparisons to the Richard Nixon White House in its later phases: when RN was in a funk and his staff intercepted all his messages and acted on them.

Four more years?

8

The Syrian Dan-El

by schnell in

i started reading deceptions and myths of the bible by lloyd graham tonight, and graham mentions that the book of daniel, like the story of joseph, is ripped off from a syrian poem about another hero named daniel (or dan-el).. a cursory google search doesn't pull up anything.

is this accurate?

has this ancient poem survived?

kepler

Reviewing some of the discussion, I noticed that some of what I said was already covered. But there is still some issue about why Danel and Daniel. As far as I can tell, it boils down to looking for references to Daniel in the OT other than the text of Daniel itself. The only one is Ezekiel and it's questionable. If Daniel is a contemporary of Ezekiel, he could have been talking of Danel instead when he spoke of the wise men of old such as Noah and Job. Ok. Now try to find another reference in the OT - including in such works as the ("deutero-canonical") Wisdom of Ben Sirach in the 2nd century where the prophets are enumerated.

8

The Syrian Dan-El

by schnell in

i started reading deceptions and myths of the bible by lloyd graham tonight, and graham mentions that the book of daniel, like the story of joseph, is ripped off from a syrian poem about another hero named daniel (or dan-el).. a cursory google search doesn't pull up anything.

is this accurate?

has this ancient poem survived?

kepler

Danel's name is not in the Title: The Aghat Epic, but he figures in the story.

Look for links or sources related to the city of Ugarit. The language was Canaanite but the writing was in

cuneiform.

As for Daniel. The biggest key to the story's date of composition is the reference to Darius the Mede.

Darius is not unknown to history. That's how Thucydides and Herodotus referred to the Persian invaders and the Greek victory over them at Marathon. They called them Medes and their king was Darius.

Unfortunately, the year was 490 BC.

But Daniel's author got something out of his Seleucid history classes in the 2nd century BC.

20

How can the WTS call themselves Christians when they have no Christian church?

by TTWSYF in

so was jesus a fool or a liar?

he said that his church would last all ages, didn't he?.

math 16:8and i say to thee: that thou art peter; and upon this rock i will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

kepler

Chruch or congregation, the implications sound the same. Peter is called aside for a conference and

given the keys to the executive office of an organization that will be around for a while.

Did I say organization? Well, it appears that there are a number that have edited this picture out of the script.

I think David-Jay's survey of the Protestant spectrum of though is spot on. Before coming into contact with JW, it puzzled me how so much of this thought was based on the notion that Christianity had been hijacked for a millenium and a half - and that nothing of value was there until it was filtered through a succession of Central European clerics and allied princes. Subsequently those that would save us from the hijacking used Biblical translations and anthologies as inerrant sources of doctrine in their mouths. Which meant an even longer interregnum until things could get even further re-organized in North America...

51

Truly I say to you, Amen I say to you, Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech

by kepler in

in another topic changes in the nwt, one of the correspondents posted that.

concerning the comma in luke 23:43, http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htmhas some interesting comments.. .

to summarize what was stated at this website, the translator selected a translation for luke 23:43. .

kepler

SBF,

You mentioned another thread about history. Not sure which one was meant, whether one of mine or started by someone else. Can you give me another clue? Have to rush off on some errands, but I'll see if I can find it.