Posts by Bobcat

35

New Light About FS--question

by DarioKehl in

jw
friends

so, if the current gb is this "faithful and discreet slave" and they place greater emphasis on 1919 now, are they saying that only a few anointed christians were selected in the 1st century, followed by nearly 2000 years of no selections and starting around 1914-1919, the selection of the rest of the 144,000 resumed?.

if so, this is an easy explanation for the increase in numbers of partakers since 2008. have they gone right out and said this officially or have they only alluded to it up to now?.

also, the original understanding was this "shut door" policy of 1935. i never understood how they arrived at that year.

Bobcat

RE: 1935

It is a case book example of circular reasoning - and how it eventually breaks down.

1935 was the year the Society 'understood' who the great crowd was, namely, they were the same as the sheep of Matthew 25:31-46. And since that is so, and since God has shown that to us, then, logically speaking, there must be a reason why He has shown that to us: It must be because the gathering of the "anointed", who are the same as the 144,000, is done (except for a few replacements, of course).

Unfortunately, the "great crowd" is not identical with the "sheep" of Mt 25.

And the "anointed" is not identical with the 144,000.

And thus, God did not show them this in 1935, rather, they assumed/presumed He did, to give their 'understanding' more authority. (After all, try saying something authoratative whilst also saying you are not sure if this is right ...)

The partakers at the memorial decreased because they said they must, putting peer pressure on any who might think they should. This would also be an example of a 'self-fulilling prophaecy.'

2

annointed 2.0 ?

by nowwhat? in

sorry if this is covered somewhere else.

so what's the deal with the annointed?

for 20 years they were at 8000, then a year or 2 ago they jumped to 12,000. now they are getting younger!

Bobcat

I posted links to research on the anointed topic from a Bible standpoint on this thread (see posts 384, 385).

Looking at things from the standpoint of the GB, IMO they either don't understand the topic, or it is used by them as a way to secure their own position and power. More likely both. The latest "new lite" about the F&DS makes a lot of sense when viewed from the unexpected increase in partakers at the KH. This increase impacts their position and so they do the one thing that restores it: Redefine the terms that describe their position of superiority within the bOrg. That way those who partake can continue to merrily partake - but they gain no more position within the Org for it.

In a way, its not too different from Govt attempts to change the minimum age of Social Security and Medicaid upward. You get to be as old as you want, but you still don't qualify.

20

Does the Watchtower still make a big thing about the cry of "Peace & Security"?

by cantleave in

it was a big thing in 70's and 80's, but seemed to have died down during the 90's up until the time i left.

i was wondering with the arab spring and increased unrest in the middle east, whether the brothers are speculating about this again?.

Bobcat

A Watcher:

The cry of 'peace and security' is important because it is a major prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled.

I posted a different view of 1 Thess 5:2, 3 here. (Only mentioned as a viewpoint you might not have considered.)

Take Care

10

What does the WBTS teach about

by Mrs Smith in

the king of the north and the king of the south.

the last time i paid attention it was russian and usa.

what do they teach now?

Bobcat

The current WT understanding is that if you try to figure it out you are "speculating." But when they come out with anything it is "new light."

Many believe the prophecy focuses on the Maccabean period. But that issue aside, just looking at what the end of the prophecy states:

The final action in the prophecy that deals with the KoN in his relationship with the KoS says:

(Daniel 11:43 NWT) ". . .And he will actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Lib′y·ans and the E·thi·o′pi·ans will be at his steps."

Egypt was the KoS. So this points to the KoN coming into economic control over the KoS, and the KoS's neighbors (the Libyans and Ethiopians) taking the side of the KoN. After this the action in the prophecy describes how the KoN comes to his end.

In Rev 13, the two-horned lamb is shown exercising economic control. (Rev 13:16, 17) But just before the end, the "10 horns" give their power and authority to the scarlet wild beast. (Rev chapter 17)

IF (did I say IF?), but IF the two-horned lamb pictures the Anglo-American world power, and IF the "10 horns" are referring to the 10 horns from Daniel chapter 7, then the events have this correspondency:

Egypt = Two horned Lamb (GB/USA)

Lybia/Ethiopia = 10 horns (European Nations)

KoN = Scarlet Wild Beast (UN)

The US/GB lose their economic dominence just before the end, coming under some form of UN sponsered economic control supported or agreed to by the EU. A not implausible scenario even from a purely secular viewpoint.

And for any who wish to debate it, I was simply hypothasizing ("IF"). You'll have to debate it with someone else.

11

"Never receive him into your homes"

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

i was just thinking about that scripture, 2 john 9-11, if i remember correctly.

jehovah's witnesses use it to justify their shunning of members who have been expelled.

a thought just occurred to me about it.

Bobcat

In fact, the verse is referring to ones who would not yet have been put out of the congregation. The NLT Bible paraphrases the text but catches the gist of what John is talking about. (See it here starting with verse 7) Back in John's time there were itinerant or traveling brothers that could prove troublesome to the congregations if there teaching strayed from basic Christian doctrine.

From the Society's standpoint, they keep a tight grip on who travels to visit congregations. And brothers visiting to give talks from other congregations would be reported to his BOE if his talks were out of line. So there is no reason for the Society to even pay much attention to this verse, in practice at least.

It is disingenious for the Society to apply this to disfellowshiped people. For example, a DFed son or daughter visiting his JW parents to see how they are doing, or to look out for them as a grown child should, could hardly be described as John does in these verses. But the Society isn't bothered by context. If the verse says, 'never say a greeting to them,' they simply hijack that phrase and apply it to anyone they want.

6

your definition of "world" and "christendom"

by Honeybucket in

what does the bible actual refer to when it states "world".

i really hate the society's use of "worldly" and use of "christendom".

in fact i hate all things that put others in a bad light and demonize them.

Bobcat

The Greek word kosmos Strong's #2889), usually translated "world," basically means, "order, regular disposition and arrangement." It can mean "adorned" (1 Pet 3:3), the earth as the home of humans, and in a pejorative sense, human society outside of God's Kingdom. Sometimes the context indicates a narrower meaning.

That last meaning is the basis of using the description "worldly," usually meant in a derogative sense by JWs (and probably others too). To be honest, I think the Society has said something about not using the term in reference to individuals. Off hand I can't find that counsel.

Titus 2:12 uses it with regard to "desires." And it can be found numerous times in the Publications Index.

I find the use of it against individuals as demeaning, but at the same time I know I've been guilty of using it in the past. I think as I've woken up some I've become more cognizant and sensitive about demeaning terms. I think Titus 3:1-3 would argue against using terms like that to belittle others. No doubt there are other similar verses.

"Christendom," to the Society means appostate Christianity. To the rest of the world it means areas where the Christian religion holds sway. The world would probably lump the WT along with "Christendom." "Christendom" would lump JWs outside of Christianity. And JWs would say only they are truly Christian. Its curious, isn't it?

Whenever the Society quotes from a non-WT reference work, if it supports a WT idea, then, the reference work is from a "Bible scholar." If it opposes a WT idea it is from "Christendom's clergy." Such are the techniques of propaganda.

Hope this helps

Take Care

26

Last night in the Jeremiah Book

by BroMac in

i dont understand when this happened: .

*** jr chap.

2 pp.

Bobcat

Jeffro:

"the JW view of the length of the period between 'the Exodus' and the appointment of king Saul is essentially the same as that given by other Bible commentators since the 19th century.

For those curious, it is based on 1 Kings 6:1. 480 years from the 4th year of Solomon. (967/6 + 480 = 1447/6) The Society has Solomon's rule starting in 1037. (So, 1034/3 + 480 = 1514/3)

4

What Sign Does the Governing Body Offer They Are "The Vine" of (John 15:1-8)

by ÁrbolesdeArabia in

"outrageous claims demand extraordinary proof!".

what sign or evidence back's the watchtower's leadership's claim, they are "the vine" (john 15) and are jesus christ's modern day apostles?

the 1950 something watchtower makes the claim if we fall off their vine, we become like a dead limb or commit spiritual suicide (if some new teaching cracks or blows us off the vine(watchtower teachings)).

Bobcat

I think the Society says that the "anointed" are the branches of the vine. Of course, in their thinking that is the 144,000 which would include the GB.

In the context of the vine metaphor (John 15:1-10), the branches are mostly referred to as, "YOU" (2nd person, plural). But they are also referred to as those:

'who Jesus spoke to' (v.3),

who 'remain in union (or "abide") with him' (v.4),

who keep to Jesus' "sayings" (v.7),

who 'prove themselves to be Jesus' disciples' (v.8),

and who 'observe Jesus' commandments' (v.9)

I might add that, based on the new F&DS explanation, the WT basically claims that the GB are the "vine" for all practical purposes. They claim you can't do anything if you are not in union with them. But I imagine they wouldn't have the outright temerity to say that. But they do imply it.

Here is the most recent thing I could find on the WT understanding:

*** w02 2/1 p. 18 par. 15 Are You Among Those Loved by God? ***
Rather than producing the fruitage of true worship, Israel fell into apostasy and produced fruit for itself. Three days before his final meeting with his faithful disciples, Jesus told the hypocritical Jewish leaders: "I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits." (Matthew 21:43) That new nation is "the Israel of God," made up of 144,000 anointed Christians, who are likened to "the branches" of "the true vine," Christ Jesus.-Galatians 6:16; John 15:5; Revelation 14:1, 3.

Just as a bit of personal commentary, Gal 6:16 refers to, "The Israel of God" but links that nation to, "All those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct," which in the immediate context involves those who look to Jesus.

John 15:5 simply says, "YOU are the branches."

Rev 14:1, 3 refers to the 144,000, but there are no linguistic links in those verses, that I can see, that would require only these to be the "branches" of the vine in John 15.

Such is the emptiness of WT eisegesis. (Eisegesis=personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas.)

6

The Federal Council of Churches & League of Nations "Political Expression of the Kingdom of God"

by BluesBrother in

i have searched many times for the actual text of what the fccc said in their endorsement of the league of nations in 1919 - a quote much loved by the wts and seen as a fulfillment of prophecy of "the disgusting thing standing in the holy place.

it was here all the time, courtesy of our old friend hawkaw...long may he be remembered.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/17563/1/fccc-league-on-nations-un-watchtower-rare-article.

the download links in his post still worked for me and it is fascinating reading.

Bobcat

BB:

Bless you. Saving to desktop for a lookover.

26

Last night in the Jeremiah Book

by BroMac in

i dont understand when this happened: .

*** jr chap.

2 pp.

Bobcat

AnnOMaly:

Thank you for the rtables.pdf. At my leisure I'm going to compare it with my copy of Edwin Thiele's "Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings."