DATA:
Thank you for the John 17:3 link. (I was gonna put a thumbs-up icon, but then I saw the airplane icon and couldn't resist. Not sure what it means. Maybe, 'have a nice flight!' :)
Take Care
Posts by Bobcat
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86Since Great Crowd has no mediator
by sosoconfused ini am thinking that maybe i missed this discussion or something.
now for years in the org i never ever paid attention to the article that says jesus is the mediator for the 144000 alone.
yesterday talking to my 70+ year old dad he got violently angry with me and threw his cane at me because he said i was a liar.. .
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Why WT translates Parousia as "Presence" and not "Coming" (Matt. 24:3)?
by ProfCNJ inwt had translated "parousia" as presence instead of "coming".
it has explained time and again that in 1914, jesus came invisibly and since then, we are living in the last days under his invisible presence.. now i was a bit puzzled if that would really be the appropriate translation after reading matthew 28:19, 20.. 19 "therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit,20and teaching them to obey everything i have commanded you.
and surely i am with you always, to the very end of the age.".
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Bobcat
Parousia, as is found in Matthew's Olivet Discourse is most interesting. It occurs only four times: 24:3, 27, 37, 39
The first time is in the second of the disciples questions:
(Matthew 24:3) . . .While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: "Tell us,"
1. "When will these things be (concerning the destruction of the temple), and
2. what will be the sign of your parousia and of the conclusion of the system of things?"
The first use by Jesus is in:
(Matthew 24:23-28) . . .Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,' or, ‘There!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,' do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,' do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the parousia of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
This instance indicates that there was expected to be a universal recognition aspect to Jesus' parousia. Everyone would know.
The other two occurrances are in 36-42 and a comparison with "those days before the flood" and when "the flood came."
(Matthew 24:36-42) . . .Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the parousia of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the parousia of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.
In this instance Jesus' parousia is associated with some 'pre-coming' period (24:42), wherein people were expected to acknowledge Jesus in some way, but instead, either ignored him or were too busy otherwise. ("Took no note" - See here for variations.) The context seems to fault such ones, as if, they should have known, but their own lives interferred with their 'taking note' or 'knowing.' But the context also associates the parousia with the 'day and hour' of Jesus 'coming.' In the context, "the day and hour" and Jesus' "coming" are equated with the arrival of the Deluge.
The parallel in Luke 17 words this a bit differently:
(Luke 17:22-30) . . .Then he said to the disciples: "Days will come when YOU will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man but YOU will not see [it]. 23 And people will say to YOU, ‘See there!' or, ‘See here!' Do not go out or chase after [them]. 24 For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be. 25 First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sod′om it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.
Luke 17:22-30 is in whole, what Matthew splits into two parts. Luke 17:22-24 matches Matthew 24:23-28. And Luke 17:26-30 matches with Matthew 24:36-42
Luke uses "the days of the Son of man" and "that day when the Son of man is to be revealed" in place of Matthew's parousia.
Luke's usage links "the days of the Son of man" and "that day when the Son of man is to be revealed" with events that happened in the 1st century (the fleeing).
Matthew's account distances the parousia from the 1st century events surrounding Jerusalem, as if it is a seperate event. It treats the parousia question as different from the temple destruction question.
Its late here. I have to think about this more.
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86
Since Great Crowd has no mediator
by sosoconfused ini am thinking that maybe i missed this discussion or something.
now for years in the org i never ever paid attention to the article that says jesus is the mediator for the 144000 alone.
yesterday talking to my 70+ year old dad he got violently angry with me and threw his cane at me because he said i was a liar.. .
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Bobcat
SoSoConfused:
(I'm just catching up, as you can see. Been very busy lately.)
I was actually commenting on someone elses post, not yours. But I left the name out to focus on the issue, rather than any person.
A few times I've looked back on a post of mine and could see it became too personal or bordered on a personal attack. So I'm trying to adjust.
Take Care
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Surprizing Alzheimers Claim
by metatron inhttp://www.activistpost.com/2013/06/turmeric-produces-remarkable-recovery.html.
very interesting stuff.. side note: i am compelled to post items such as the above on this site because, although i have given up on the promises of 'the truth', i have not given up on hope for the future.
i continue to believe that the human race 'is gonna make it' , that the earth will eventually become something akin to a paradise.
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Bobcat
Metatron:
Thanks for posting this. I started taking curcumin about a month ago. Cancer runs in my family, so I was thinking of it from that standpoint. But this connection with alzheimers is interesting.
By the way, I always find your posts interesting and a nice break from the talking about the religious scene.
Take care
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Another problem with "new light"
by leaving_quietly inmatt 25:34-40. then the king will say to those on his right, come, you who have been blessed by my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.
35 for i became hungry and you gave me something to eat; i got thirsty and you gave me something to drink.
i was a stranger and you received me hospitably; 36 naked, and you clothed me.
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Bobcat
I posted some research material on the sheep/goats parable here. (See my posts # 267 & 272)
There is more research posted here about this parable. (See my posts # 714 & 716)
And here is some regarding how the Society uses this parable to get support for itself at the expense of what the parable actually says. (See my post # 387, about halfway into the post)
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WT asserts that the Bible is written only for the 144 000. so why--?
by prologos inthe 144 ooo are called the "sealed" in rev.7.-- wt morphed that into "anointed".. in rev.14:4 the 144 k are referred to as "--firstfruits--".. .
in his letter to hebrew christians paul mentions at 12:23 the "congregation ("church" niv) of the firstborn".
the 144 000.. --------- so why did he write to them: "you have approached the congregation--" ???
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Bobcat
Prologos:
I wonder if this might also be part of what Jesus had in mind when he said 'the last would be first and the first last.' (Mt 19:27-20:16) Certainly, at least with the Society, there are those assuming they are "first," and others that these "first" ones assume are "last."
Take Care
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WT asserts that the Bible is written only for the 144 000. so why--?
by prologos inthe 144 ooo are called the "sealed" in rev.7.-- wt morphed that into "anointed".. in rev.14:4 the 144 k are referred to as "--firstfruits--".. .
in his letter to hebrew christians paul mentions at 12:23 the "congregation ("church" niv) of the firstborn".
the 144 000.. --------- so why did he write to them: "you have approached the congregation--" ???
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Bobcat
The irony is that, in a sense, they WERE written for anointed ones. Its just that the Society wrongly attributes being anointed to just the 144,000.
The idea (actually worded in Rev) that these are all 'executed with the axe' makes the number 144,000 much more plausible, IMO. It is conceivable that since Christ's time on earth the number of Christians who have actually been executed for their faith could fall into the 144,000 region. The fact that the "four winds" are let loose after that number is reached shows that the number could indeed be exact. In other words, heaven determined that this number was needed, and after the number is reached, no further opportunities for executing Christians in such a way are allowed.
From the standpoint of who God would want in a heavenly government, it would make good sense to use those who gave, literally, everything.
From another standpoint, if this is a necessary qualification, it wipes out any link between ruling and partaking at the memorial, since no one could know their end.
It might also explain why only God would know 'the day and hour.' Only he would know who was fully faithful when they were executed. (But that knowledge might be shared with by Jesus, now that he has returned to heaven.
It is interesting how the Society handles this idea of being 'executed with the axe.' They feel that an 'anointed Christian' dies a sacrifical death, regardless of how they die, even if by old age or accident. Yet an 'other sheeper' (using their terminology), who lives by the same standards, their death has no such value.
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Why WT translates Parousia as "Presence" and not "Coming" (Matt. 24:3)?
by ProfCNJ inwt had translated "parousia" as presence instead of "coming".
it has explained time and again that in 1914, jesus came invisibly and since then, we are living in the last days under his invisible presence.. now i was a bit puzzled if that would really be the appropriate translation after reading matthew 28:19, 20.. 19 "therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit,20and teaching them to obey everything i have commanded you.
and surely i am with you always, to the very end of the age.".
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Bobcat
bttt
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Why have the Pharisees been deemed unforgiven and forever in the grave
by I_love_Jeff inwhy is it that many believe that the pharisees who spoke against jesus/holy spirit will not be given a second chance?
i know jesus said that it is blasphemy to speak against holy spirit.
did they not follow their mosaic laws and teach others about the rules within the torah?
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When will the celebration of the memorial end?
by ralphnathaniels inwhen will the celebration of the memorial end?
and why?
i missed that part in the speech.. and i want to know :).
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