over a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
Vidqun:
Thanks for the reference material. This reminds me a little of the "24 elders" thread a while back. Interesting to speculate, but still lacking the final word.
I feel a little envious. It appears you have some major academic works on the computer (e.g. Word Biblical and HALOT). All mine are in paper.
Take Care
over a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
Kepler:
I could say something like, "Do you mean Cyrus?" But we don't get that opportunity
Actually, Daniel 6:28 may, in fact, be the very statement of identification with Cyrus that your illustrative dinner partner (Daniel, I suppose), gives. Compare 1 Chronicles 5:26 - this verse and Daniel 6:28 share a similarity in construction, and possibly in purpose.
At the very least, it does make this Darius a contemporary of Cyrus. But if the waw is not epexegetical, it also represents a diplomatic faux pas for the court trained Daniel, to list an inferior before his superior, especially in the diplomatic language of the day (Aramaic), where Cyrus could possibly read this 'slight' to his person prestige by Daniel. Of course, if written by a later editor, the point would be lost.
Still, an interesting subject. Unfortunately it awaits more evidence to be dug up.
Incidentally, the Society needs Darius and Cyrus to be seperate because they take "the kings from the rising of the sun" (Rev 6:12) to be their antitypical counterparts, Jehovah and Jesus. (The verse is more likely an allusion to Jer 51:11.)
Take Care
i've been reading coc and rf highlights that luke 21:28 says: "but as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near.".
i'm thinking on how no one who saw the start of these things is alive from 1914. as a comparison point, does anyone know when the wt suggests the last days started in the first century?.
was it when jesus said the above?.
In Matthew 23:33-37 Jesus said that judgment would befall "this generation" then alive when he was speaking (33 AD). As he left the temple, he told his disciples about the coming destruction of the temple. (Matt 24:1, 2) This prompts the disciples to ask "when will these things be?" (Matt 24:3) From 24:4 thru 24:14 describe events before "the end." From 24:15 thru 24:31 describe "the end" that they had asked about. Then in 24:32 thru 35 Jesus illustrates via a fig tree that "this generation will not pass away until all these things (verses 15 thru 31) take place.
So, "these things" of verse 33 refer to the actual destruction that occurred in 66-70 AD. But it was "this generation" alive in 33 AD that Jesus said would experience all of that.
Applying "this generation" of Matt 24:32, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32 to any other time violates the actual context that they occur within. Many, not just the Society, feel there is a secondary application due to some of the extravagant language of the passage (e.g. 24:21). But seeing a future application requires also dismissing some of the specific first century language (e.g. 24:16, 20) and the use of "this generation" by Jesus in 23:36 and his linking it with the destruction of the temple.
There are similarities with Revelation - but not entirely. And it is precisely in the differences that the Society has faced problems. For example, Revelation mentions nothing of a "generation." Matthew has "earthquakes in one place after another," whereas, Revelation only has two symbolic "earthquakes." (8:5 = 11:13; 6:12 = 11:19 = 16:18)
chapter twelve "was not that a case of knowing me?".
king jehoiakim was building a house, and it was to be grand.
plans called for spacious rooms on at least two stories.
Actually, the Society is rather bald-faced about using others as slaves:
*** w08 1/15 p. 26 par. 6 Counted Worthy to Be Guided to Fountains of Waters of Life ***
6 The willing support given to anointed Christians by their companions of the other sheep was foretold by the prophet Isaiah. He wrote: “This is what Jehovah has said: ‘The unpaid laborers of Egypt and the merchants of Ethiopia and the Sabeans, tall men, will themselves come over even to you, and yours they will become. Behind you they will walk.’” (Isa. 45:14) In a symbolic way, Christians with an earthly hope today walk behind the anointed slave class and its Governing Body, following their leadership. As “unpaid laborers,” the other sheep willingly and wholeheartedly expend their strength and their resources in support of the worldwide preaching work that Christ assigned to his anointed followers on earth.—Acts 1:8; Rev. 12:17.
But they mis-apply this text from Isaiah. (Is that a surprise?) See my second post on this thread.
i started this thread as a single place for anyone who would like to add references to source material, or anything else for that matter, pertaining to the jeremiah book study.. .
page 52:.
here is a thread and numerous comments concerning jeremiah 13:1-11 and whether or not jeremiah traveled to the euphrates to hide a garment.. .
Splash:
Thanks for the thoughts. I thought this would be a good catch-all thread for research various ones have done for the Jeremiah Book.
Vidqun:
If they research too much, they might get disfellowshipped. So I guess balance is needed. Only study the Society's publications. Bobcat, what say you?
Sorry, I forgot to get back to this.
I find myself "studying" WT pubs, including the Jeremiah book, only with great care to analyse everything for accuracy and other propaganda techniques. They (WT writers) seem to be good for:
1. Choosing one position on complex issues and acting as if there were no other possible conclusion.
2. Showing contempt for any opposite views while lauding anyone that agrees with them.
3. Telling you how you feel about (name issue), or telling you how you should feel (or think) about it.
I find myself feeling a reluctance when it comes to reading WT pubs because I know I'll run into catch words ("slave class," "other sheep," "anointed Christians," etc.) that mean one thing to the Society and something different to me. It makes reading WT pubs a real chore.
At the same time, particular passages in WT pubs have served as stepping stones to real research that I've learned from. So they have served some useful purpose.
But like you say, you have to be very careful. The friends are gleeful when you can show them something from a non-WT reference that coincides with the WT position. But otherwise they are suspicious of anything non-WT. So I try to limit what info I give out. Numerous times I've shown my wife something from a non-WT reference that corresponds with what the Society says, or even explains it better, and she will comment, "I wonder why he (the reference author) isn't in the truth?" She doesn't realize that most times the Society got their "truth" on that subject from a non-WT reference. Then they pretend it is "light" from themselves.
The last time we did the Revelation Climax book, I followed closely along in an academic commentary and much of what I said above became painfully apparent. (And I was the conductor!) It got to the point where I couldn't wait to get the book study out of my house. How I got thru that period without being DF for apostacy is a wonder.
But I've since become more careful about what I tell JWs. Many are like intellectual landmines. Say the wrong thing and they say nothing to you but report what they heard (or what they interpreted from what they heard) to the elders.
Take Care
chapter twelve "was not that a case of knowing me?".
king jehoiakim was building a house, and it was to be grand.
plans called for spacious rooms on at least two stories.
i started this thread as a single place for anyone who would like to add references to source material, or anything else for that matter, pertaining to the jeremiah book study.. .
page 52:.
here is a thread and numerous comments concerning jeremiah 13:1-11 and whether or not jeremiah traveled to the euphrates to hide a garment.. .
over a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
Kepler:
What happened to Darius the Mede?
I had posted a lengthy (by my typing standards) list of possible evidences that Darius the Mede was one and the same as Cyrus the Persian. It was posted on a thread started by Larsinger58. Unfortunately, it appears that all the threads started by Lars are deleted, or at the least, no longer available. (A part of the treatise was based on Daniel 6:28.)
It should also be noted that the fact that certain words cannot be now found in a particular ancient period is an argument by silence. You said, " The author of Daniel was more Hellanized than he knew." It could also be that the Greeks, being the international traders that they were, were more influenced by the ANE than they knew.
At any rate, nice to 'hear' from you, and as always, an interesting topic you bring up.
Take Care
christian groups are using undercover techniques to try and make converts in chinese universities.. .
web-link: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/794610.shtml#.ueo07y0wd8e.
chinese universities alarmed by rise of proselytization on campus.
FTS:
Very interesting. Thanks for posting.
Take Care
"you have no idea!
yes, people hate jws!".
this statement was made to me by a jw who had just left a meeting to present the notion that they were the persecuted christians.
NeverKnew:
2. I'm a female
I should have known. Your icon has that classic female shape. As you can see, mine is typically male (save for the lipstick).
Take Care
