Posts by Bobcat

6

August KM

by mann377 in

jw
friends

i just finished reading the insert in the august kingdom ministry and had to vent my disdain over the pompous & arrogant attitude the wtbs takes in criminalizing expressing ones ideas.

see the last sentence in par.

7, p.4 of the insert.

Bobcat

Here is an interesting item:

On page 4, on the right hand column there is a suggested talking point:

To Start Bible Studies on the First Saturday in September

"Many believe that God will one day judge them according to their deeds. Do you think Judgment Day is something to look forward to or to dread? [Allow for response.] Notice what this says." Hand the householder the September 1 Watchtower, and consider together material under the first subheading on page 16 and at least one of the scriptures. Offer the magazines, and arrange to return to discuss the next question.

A reply to this approach might be:

"Where in the Bible are you getting this term 'Judgement Day' from? And why doesn't a reference to it occur in this article?

In the NWT, the term occurs at Matthew 10:15; 11:22, 24; 12:36 (four places total. No where else.).

Or ask if they have a Bible Teach book handy. On pages 213-215 there is a chapter on "Judgement Day."

Curiously enough, this chapter in the Bible Teach book and page 16 in the 9/1 public Watchtower do not cite any of the four verses that use the term "Judgement Day." How are you going to have a whole chapter in a book and an article in the magazine about a subject, but never reference the verses that use the term you are talking about?

The WT article does cite 2 Peter 3:7. 2 Peter 2:9 and 3:7 use the term "day of judgement." The WT article says that refers to the coming great tribulation. But they say that "Judgement Day" refers to the 1000 years.

The fact is both terms ("Judgement Day" and "day of Judgement") are exactly the same in Greek. I kind of think that the Society knows that the rendering "Judgement Day" in Matthew is bunk. But they aren't willing to admit it. Instead they are trying to slyly forget those verses.

38

2011 School for Congregation Elders Hand Book!

by Atlantis in

( credit goes to average joe).

2011 school for congregation elders hand book.click the link in the blue box by the blue arrow.http://www.sendspace.com/file/82jdej.or use this site.1.

click the link and another page will open with the words "download file" in blue color, click on that link.

Bobcat

First off, thanks for the download Atlantis.

I'm curious, is this something that was printed by the Society and given to the elders for the school, or is this a printout of reference material that elders were asked to bring with them to the school? It looks like selected paragraphs from various articles taken from the WT Library.

I know from previous elders schools we were often asked to bring a selection of references with us.

4

A Question for you Witnesses

by KW13 in

jw
friends

if jehovah created the perfect planet for us to live on forever in paradise, why has he designed and created what is essentially a doomed planet?.

originally the moon was extremely close, but at the moment its inching away (literally).

eventually the effect will dramatically change life on earth, before rendering the earth inhabitable.

Bobcat

Incidentally, I do want to thank the questioner for prompting a search for info.

Here is some of what I found. Not like anything I was expecting:

Here

Here is Wikipedia. Below is a paragraph from it. Very interesting.

The Moon is gradually receding from the Earth into a higher orbit, and calculations[9][10] suggest that this would continue for about fifty billion years. By that time, the Earth and Moon would become caught up in what is called a "spin-orbit resonance" or "tidal locking" in which the Moon will circle the Earth in about 47 days (currently 27 days), and both Moon and Earth would rotate around their axes in the same time, always facing each other with the same side. (This has already happened to the Moon -- the same side always faces Earth. This is slowly happening to the Earth.) However, the slowdown of the Earth's rotation is not occurring fast enough for the rotation to lengthen to a month before other effects change the situation: about 2.3 billion years from now, the increase of the Sun's radiation will have caused the Earth's oceans to vaporize[11], removing the bulk of the tidal friction and acceleration.

Take Care

4

A Question for you Witnesses

by KW13 in

jw
friends

if jehovah created the perfect planet for us to live on forever in paradise, why has he designed and created what is essentially a doomed planet?.

originally the moon was extremely close, but at the moment its inching away (literally).

eventually the effect will dramatically change life on earth, before rendering the earth inhabitable.

Bobcat

I'll throw something into the fray, not as a "dub," but just as an observation.

I haven't studied anything on the subject, so these comments are not derived from any great personal knowledge:

Man has only been studying the moon to the 'inch' degree for a relative short time.

Is it possible that there is a movement cycle that spans a greater time period than the observational period?

For example, if I looked at my neighbor for a minute, I might observe him moving away from me. A longer observation might reveal that his direction away from me was not sustained.

Is it possible that earth's gravity has long term cycles of fluctuation that affect the distance of the moon?

Is it possible that there are fluctuations in the theoretical 'Higgs' field that are beyond our observation for now?

Concerning the Higgs Effect see here.

Is it possible that long term fluctuations in the Sun or earth's orbit around the Sun have an effect on the distance between moon and earth?

Is it possible that there are fluctuations in the theorized 'dark matter' that have an effect on the orbital distance of the moon?

Concerning 'dark matter' see here.

I agree with your point that the distance of the moon to the earth can have beneficial and/or catastrophic consequences.

(In the remake of "The Time Machine," the breakup of the moon is shown as causing the demise of modern society. (See here)

But I tend not to put a lot of faith in long-term conclusions drawn from relatively short-term observations.

Also, if God does exist, he is a factor/force that has been left out of the conclusion. This would necessarily throw the conclusion into question the same as any hypothetical conclusion of my stepping off a roof top would be in error if I did not take gravity into account.

You said that "originally the moon was extremely close." I thought that the theory held by most was that originally the moon was part of the earth. Of course, that might be what you meant by "extremely close." It could be that I haven't kept up with the latest ideas. But that leads to another question:

Is it possible that the moon's distance is still settling out from its original movement away from the planet. If this was the case, then, it might take a longer observational period to confirm. Also the (admittedly theorized) settling out speed might be affected by other factors as I mentioned above.

I imagine that most Witnesses (or other people of faith) would express the idea that God would take care of it, one way or another, just as He would take care of any possible burn out of the sun or any other possible astronomical problem that was beyond mankind's control.

For example, compare Psalm 115:16.

Take Care

10

2012 District Convention Watchtower Summary - Quotes

by wannabefree in

here are a few select editorialized quotes from the watchtower summary as presented at the 2012 district convention.. this is from the march study edition, 3/15/2012 page 25, "do not look at the things behind".

i found these first two disturbing as they seem to instill fear, especially in children.

lot's wife suffers painful death by having a scalding brine poured on her (is that how the bible puts it?).

Bobcat

Just to add a little bit more about Lot's wife and the Hebrew word for "pillar":

The Theological Wordbook of the OT (Vol II p.592) says: "The one place where the noun n e sib is translated "pillar" is in reference to Lot's wife (Gen 19:26). The obvious intent here is to depict her as stopped, trapped, transformed as and where she was, in a still upright posture, whether we assume the transformation into salt as instantaneous or subsequent."

10

2012 District Convention Watchtower Summary - Quotes

by wannabefree in

here are a few select editorialized quotes from the watchtower summary as presented at the 2012 district convention.. this is from the march study edition, 3/15/2012 page 25, "do not look at the things behind".

i found these first two disturbing as they seem to instill fear, especially in children.

lot's wife suffers painful death by having a scalding brine poured on her (is that how the bible puts it?).

Bobcat

Wanna Be Free said:

Lot's wife suffers painful death by having a scalding brine poured on her (is that how the Bible puts it?)

Did they actually say it like this? Here's how Genesis 19:26 puts it:

"And his wife began to look around from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt."

The New American Commentary on Genesis had this commentary about it:

The feature of "salt" in the Dead Sea area (cf. "salt sea," 14:3) and its sterile effects on arable land may explain the casting of her figure in the mineral. Her physical translation into an edifice of salt, probably to be understood as a coating of salt, testified to the consequence of disobedience and was an appalling reminder of the events at Sodom." (Vol II)

Josephus (Ant 1.11.4) says:

"... was changed into a pillar of salt; for I have seen it, ..."

The Barnes commentary on the Bible says this: (copied from the eSword program)

From the injunction to Lot to "flee to the mountain," as well as from the nature of the soil, we may infer that at the same time with the awful conflagration there was a subsidence of the ground, so that the waters of the upper and original lake flowed in upon the former fertile and populous dale, and formed the shallow southern part of the present Salt Sea. In this pool of melting asphalt and sweltering, seething waters, the cities seem to have sunk forever, and left behind them no vestiges of their existence. Lot's wife lingering behind her husband, and looking back, contrary to the express command of the Lord, is caught in the sweeping tempest, and becomes a pillar of salt: so narrow was the escape of Lot. The dashing spray of the salt sulphurous rain seems to have suffocated her, and then encrusted her whole body. She may have burned to a cinder in the furious conflagration. She is a memorable example of the indignation and wrath that overtakes the halting and the backsliding.

Keil & Delitzsch OT Commentary: (copied from eSword program)

On the way, Lot's wife, notwithstanding the divine command, looked "behind him away," - i.e., went behind her husband and looked backwards, probably from a longing for the house and the earthly possessions she had left with reluctance (cf. Luk_17:31-32), - and "became a pillar of salt." We are not to suppose that she was actually turned into one, but having been killed by the fiery and sulphureous vapour with which the air was filled, and afterwards encrusted with salt, she resembled an actual statue of salt; just as even now, from the saline exhalation of the Dead Sea, objects near it are quickly covered with a crust of salt, so that the fact, to which Christ refers in Luk_17:32, may be understood without supposing a miracle.

(Note: But when this pillar of salt is mentioned in Wis. 11:7 and Clemens ad Cor. xi. as still in existence, and Josephus professes to have seen it, this legend is probably based upon the pillar-like lumps of salt, which are still to be seen at Mount Usdum (Sodom), on the south-western side of the Dead Sea.)

When I first saw what you said they said, I was taken aback by the speculativeness of it. It is still speculative, but now I can see where the idea came from.

One of the things that would make me doubt the idea of her being poured over with burning salt was that she became "a pillar of salt." I remember seeing pictures of people unearthed in Pompeii. I don't remember seeing any who were still standing as if to become pillars. But then again, I'm open to learning.

Take Care

10

The WTS and the Book of Revelation

by Quendi in

i am starting this thread in response to an inquiry by jookbeard in another discussion.

it concerns the dating of the book of revelation and why this is so important in wts theology.

the wts, as well as many other religions, maintains that revelation was written at the end of the first century, years after jerusalem had been destroyed by the romans in ad 70. this belief is now taken as plain and obvious truth, but that is not the case.

Bobcat

Quendi:

This is something I'm going to research also for the sake of no longer just accepting someone's word for it without seeing what the evidence suggests. To that end, I'd like to quote part of the opening paragraph of the Baker Exegetical Commentary on Revelation, under the "Date" section. (p.6, Grant R. Osborne) Not because it settles the issue, but because it gives an overview of the various views and who held them. This should help broaden the discussion some. So here goes:

"Carson, Moo, and Morris (1992: 473-74) state that four dates were proposed by early Christian writers: the reigns of Claudius (A.D. 41-54, by Epiphanius), Nero (A.D. 54-68, by the Syriac versions), Domitian (A.D. 81-96, by Irenaeus, Victorinus, Eusebius, Clement of Alexandria, Origen), and Trajan (A.D. 98-117, by Donotheus, Theophylact). Of these, most contemporary scholars opt for either Nero or Domitian. Aune (1997: lvii) points out that the Domitianic date prevailed from the second thru the eighteenth centuries and again in the twentieth century, while the Neronic date dominated the nineteenth century (Aune believes that the first edition appeared in the 60s and the final in the mid-90s) To determine which view is best, several issues must be discussed." (Note for those who don't know: Claudius, Nero, Domitian, and Trajan were Roman emperors. Carson, Moo, Morris, and Aune are Bible commentary writers. The rest of the names are various Christian writers from about the 2nd century on.)

So, to outline that:

Claudius (41-54 AD) (Supported by: Epiphanius [367-402 ?])

Nero (54-68 AD) (Supported by: Syriac Versions, In connection with this I found this site, but there are others.)

Domitian (81-96 AD) (Supported by: Irenaeus [late 2nd cent], Victorinus [late 3rd cent], Eusebius [late 3rd cent], Clement of Alexandris[late 2nd-early 3rd], and Origen[1st half of 3rd])

Trajan (98-117 AD) (Supported by: Donotheus [?], Theophylact [?])

The reference quoted above lists the major issues involved in trying to resolve a date. They are:

Emperor Worship/ Imperial Cult

Persecution of Christians

Background of the Churches

I'll stop there for the time being. Hope this helps to build a sort of foundation to work from.

59

The latest on blood

by PrincessCynic in

so the local elders where i live recently had a big meeting with the hlc elders and i got a brief summary of what was said.

thought i'd share.. it seems the jws aren't capable of making a decision based on their personal conscience.

they are confused by the whole fraction thing and end up refusing the lot 'just in case' or accepting some and refusing others making them look like idiots.

Bobcat

Was Blind said:

"Hemodialysis is transfusing dirty blood out and clean blood back in through your viens"

I see your point and it makes good sense. Differentiating that (dialysis) from any other type of blood transfusion would be just a matter of technicalities. And that especially since the Society makes no difference between yours and anothers blood as the source when it comes to transfusions.

33

Witnesses ordered to begin hoarding supplies

by Star tiger in

jw
friends

my dad now an ex witnesses was visited last sunday by an active witness who said that during the special talk in the assembly in colchester england they would be advised to begin stockpiling food and water for what could a economic meltdown!.

my dad reminded him about the ancient israelites who relied on jehovah and were provided with mana after their escape from egypt, the point was lost on him!.

have the governing body become a pseudo survivalist regime, and where is their faith!!.

Bobcat

NOLAW:

"the imminent collapse of the capitalist world"

A lot of commentators are pointing to just that. Even some who were at the forefront of maintaining capitalism like Chalmers Johnson and Paul Craig Roberts.

One of the more interesting facets of this is that autocratic rule via King Louis, Napolean, The Kaiser's Germany, Hitler's Germany, and then World Communism during the Cold War - all attempted to overthrow Western Capitalist domination.

They all failed. But now Capitalism seems to be imploding due to its own inherent weaknesses.

59

The latest on blood

by PrincessCynic in

so the local elders where i live recently had a big meeting with the hlc elders and i got a brief summary of what was said.

thought i'd share.. it seems the jws aren't capable of making a decision based on their personal conscience.

they are confused by the whole fraction thing and end up refusing the lot 'just in case' or accepting some and refusing others making them look like idiots.

Bobcat

Skeeter1:

The parallels with Jonestown are amazing and scary. Thanks for that post.