Posts by Bobcat

11

What is THE lie?

by The Searcher in

2 thessalonians 2:11; "so that is why god lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie....".

this scripture has intrigued me for quite a while.

exactly what is "the lie"?

Bobcat

Searcher:

Concerning the idea that the NT is only written for a relatively tiny class of Christians, here are some verses that I think trump that idea:

(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. . .

Here, "all Scripture" is for "the man of God."

(1 Corinthians 10:11) . . .Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived.

Here the things "written," Bible examples, were meant "for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived. That would certainly include the "great crowd" who "come out of the great tribulation." (Rev 7:14)

(Acts 17:30) . . .True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent.

"God" is "now" (even in the 1st century when Paul was speaking this) "telling mankind that they should all ... repent." That would necessarily include more than the 144,000.

You are right to think of this idea as a big lie. Compounding their lie is their hypocrasy of saying that it doesn't apply but judicially enforcing it upon those to whom they say it doesn't apply. They want it both ways. "The promises and the forgiveness and the mediatorship don't apply to you, but you still need to do the preaching and everything else we say."

It's interesting to take Pauls words of judgment to Peter:

(Galatians 2:14) . . ."If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do, and not as Jews do, how is it that you are compelling people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?"

Now, let's reword them. "Jew"="Anointed Christian," "Nations"=Great Crowd."

(Galatians 2:14) . . ."If you, though you are an anointed Christian, live as the great crowd does, and not as anointed Christians do, how is it that you are compelling people of the great crowd to live according to anointed Christian practice?"

Paul was right to call it "hypocrasy." But in fact, they are not concerned about "anointed Christians." They are concerned with their own power base. This idea of a "faithful and discreet slave class" is just like the image of the wizard of oz, just a smoke screen. Anyone who claims to be an "anointed Christian" outside of themselves is called into question. But don't dare question their calling.

Take Care

11

What is THE lie?

by The Searcher in

2 thessalonians 2:11; "so that is why god lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie....".

this scripture has intrigued me for quite a while.

exactly what is "the lie"?

Bobcat

Searcher:

Actually, it kind of depends on how the context is interpreted. Some commentators see "the lawless one" as a coming individual, "the Antichrist." With that viewpoint, they see "the lie" as relating to verse 4 where he 'proclaims himself to be God.' (ESV) The NWT has, "publicly showing himself to be a god." Either translation is viable since "publicly showing" can mean "to show by argument, to demonstrate, prove." Thus, effectively "proclaiming." "God" or "a god" is also possible, although, at least in English, you would get a somewhat different connotation from each.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary says, "'The Lie' is the claim that the man of lawlessness is God." Similarly, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek NT says, "[the dative] Article [referring to "the"] may refer back to the claim of deity by the Antichrist."

For reference, here is verse 4 from the NWT and ESV:

(2 Thes 2:4 NWT) . . .He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called "god" or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

(2Thes 2:4 ESV) who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God

Some take "the lie" in the same way they take "the truth," which phrase is scattered about in the context. "The truth," as Paul uses it, doesn't mean any one particular fact, but rather a whole body of beliefs, even a lifestyle. From that, "the lie" could also be taken as the "lying signs and portents" (vs.9), and "every unrighteous deception" (vs.10), as well as "an operation of error" (vs.11), all of these collectively. (Or, "an operation of error" may be explanatory, describing the "lying signs and portents" as a whole.)

For reference, here is vv.9-12:

(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NWT) . . .But the lawless one's presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Since the context is speaking of "those who are perishing," a whole group collectively, particular individuals may or may not be taken in by any particular aspects of "the lie" (when "the lie" is seen in this way).

Personally (your milage may vary), I prefer this latter application because in the context, "the operation of error," meaning all "the lying signs and portents" is for "a retribution." Its purpose in God allowing it (vs.11) is to expose those who "did not accept the love of the truth," or "believe the truth," "but took pleasure in unrighteousness." I don't think one particular lie could accomplish that end. In this view, "the lie" is a means by which God makes a clear demarcation between those being saved and those not. He simply uses Satan and "the man of lawlessness" towards that end.

Take Care

14

Book - Research-Bible-Artifacts with a chapter on VAT 4956 by Rolf Furuli

by VM44 in

this book contains a chapter on the subject of vat 4956 that is written by rolf furuli.. http://www.gersam.de/neuheiten_2/artifacts/artifacts.html.

research - bible - artifacts.

for centuries we have been able to learn about the history of the middle east because of many ancient writings are in existence.

Bobcat

It must be good. Look how several experts rate it: (from this site)

A Scientist:

I find that it is both beautiful and instructive. I have already recommended it to several ...

A Bookseller:

Thank you for your book which I found very interesting.

A Reader:

A must for every good library ...

Curiously enough, all their first initials are the same, "A."

14

Book - Research-Bible-Artifacts with a chapter on VAT 4956 by Rolf Furuli

by VM44 in

this book contains a chapter on the subject of vat 4956 that is written by rolf furuli.. http://www.gersam.de/neuheiten_2/artifacts/artifacts.html.

research - bible - artifacts.

for centuries we have been able to learn about the history of the middle east because of many ancient writings are in existence.

Bobcat

Sad Elder:

Isn't Rolf Furuli a Jdub?

According to the review on this site, the author (Geram Verlag) is also. So it makes sense that Furuli would be a contributor.

That site also has a link to purchase from the publisher. I think they are asking 12.5 Euro plus shipping.

Here is a link to a German Amazon site with the book. I couldn't find it on the English Amazon.

Here is another JW book seller that reviews it (a little) and reccomends it for use in "Bible Highlights." They say it is out of stock. It must be a congregation best seller.

14

Book - Research-Bible-Artifacts with a chapter on VAT 4956 by Rolf Furuli

by VM44 in

this book contains a chapter on the subject of vat 4956 that is written by rolf furuli.. http://www.gersam.de/neuheiten_2/artifacts/artifacts.html.

research - bible - artifacts.

for centuries we have been able to learn about the history of the middle east because of many ancient writings are in existence.

Bobcat

VM44: (That sounds like a naval or marine squadron)

Check out this review of the book here. It would seem to answer the question of why a book would use Furuli's unorthadox views on VAT 4956.

Here is a link to a downloadable PDF of the book. (free)

Take Care

Edited: I spoke to soon. The PDF only has the index of chapters. Sorry about that.

Hold the presses. Edited again. Here is a 9 page downloadable PDF. (Its a little more.)

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

Bobcat

JonathanH:

I'm not trying to persue any argumentative discourse with you. I was simply trying to point you to a view point that you might not have considered based on your thread title. You have to accept that as strangers on the internet, where you are 'coming from' with this thead may not be as clear to others as it is to you.

But like I said, the link I posted, you are welcome to take it or leave as is your desire.

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

Bobcat

JonathanH:

"Seriously Bobcat? Does anybody vet their sources?"

Here is Paul Craig Roberts' own webpage with his own credentials. He certainly has the experience in government and finance to know what he is talking about. Nevertheless, you are certainly free to take it or leave it.

And as far as I understand his writings, he doesn't believe in a "New World Order." Rather, he compares what Washington is doing now on the world scene with what the French under King Louis and Napolean tried to do in trying to create a new 'continental european system,' somewhat analagous to the concept of the so-called "new world order." And Paul Craig Roberts sees Washington as soon to fail in that endeavor, just as the French did, and sink into an economic quagmire.

And whether you give any credence to Paul Craig Roberts or not, the current economic conditions in the EU and US all line up with what he says in that article.

Incidentally, the term "conspiracy theory" is used to brush off opposing ideas, just like the term "apostate" is used by the Society to brush off any with an alternative view. Even the official government story of 911 is a "conspiracy theory" by definition.

By brushing aside his views simply based on the supposed ideas of the global research web site (which is not his web site, he is simply a contributing writer), you are committing the "genetic fallacy."

Take Care

22

Economic rationality, or how ideology has broken our economy.

by JonathanH in

jw
friends

so i won't name where i work (some may already know) but since i decided to go to college i started working in at a retail chain so i could get flexible hours.

the pay is poor, and it is a pretty silly job, but it puts at least some money in my pocket while i work towards something better.

anyway, they recently made every one attend a big meeting where they rolled out the new "restructure" of the work force.

Bobcat

This article might give you some perspective.

29

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 07-08-2012 WT Study (GIFT MARRIAGE)

by blondie in

jw
friends

do you plan to apply in your life?.

the world book encyclopedia: a man and woman.

jw parents are allowed to request a bride price for their daughters..... .

Bobcat

Maybe its just me, but I find the whole idea of a "gift of marriage" and a "gift of singleness" to be ludicrous. Not unlike a hardware store salesman selling you a light switch and telling you he was throwing in two free gifts with it: "On" and "Off."

And, as far as I know, the Bible never describes the institution of marriage as a "gift." I could see a good mate being described as a gift from God. (Pr 12:4; 18:22; 31:10; Eccl 9:9; Gen 24:67) But not marriage in itself. To me it is simply an institution or a state (even if authored by God) that some one is either in or not. Whether it was good for any particular individual would depend entirely on the ones involved.

The same goes for singleness. The NWT has the words "gift of singleness" in the running head above Matthew 19:11. And the NWT of Matthew 19:11 is somewhat paraphrased. (NWT= who "have the gift"; Literal= to whom "it has been given") If you read Matthew 19:10, 11 (NWT) and replace "the gift" with the word "singleness" or the phrase "the gift of singleness," it makes nonsense of the verse.

Here is the verse (with context):

(Matthew 19:10, 11) 10 The disciples said to him: "If such is the situation of a man with his wife, it is not advisable to marry." 11 He said to them: "Not all men make room for the saying, but only those who have the gift.

Here is how they would read with "the gift of singleness" inserted in place of "the gift":

(Matthew 19:10, 11) 10 The disciples said to him: "If such is the situation of a [married] man with his wife, it is not advisable to marry." 11 He [Jesus] said to them: "Not all [single] men make room for the saying, but only those who have [the gift of singleness] or "who have singleness".

I inserted "[single]" in front of "men" because Jesus is saying not all men can make room for the saying 'not to get married' from verse 10. So he is obviously referring to men who are not yet married.

To me, R. T. France does a better job capturing the thought by rendering verse 11: "He replied, "Not everyone can accept this saying. But only those who have been given [the ability]." " He understands "[the ability]" to refer to one's ability to successfully deal with single life, not just to singleness.

If "marriage" and "singleness" are gifts, then how about "eating" and "not eating." How about "sleeping" and "not sleeping." Or "going to the bathroom" and "not going to the bathroom."

19

WT Q&A Study Method

by leaving_quietly in

for years, i've never understood why we read a paragraph, ask a question, and then recite what we just read in the paragraph, and at the wt study, it's an hour long period of severe boredom because, well, how many times can we recite the same stuff over and over?

even new ones who come in have been baffled at this method of teaching.

i have a theory, though.. however, i just read the "what is sacred service?

Bobcat

WTWizard:

As for comments, I remember trying to give comments that explained beyond what the paragraph said--I viewed giving a comment in the words of the paragraph "cheating". Asked to illustrate, I typically challenged myself to come up with one not in the paragraph(s) that would add to the meaning--again, using the stock illustration was cheating.

I'm proud of you. I would think the same way. Funny how the question for the paragraph would ask, "Illustrate how such-and such was the case." As if you were being asked to come up with your own illustration. But in reality, what was wanted was the illustration in the paragraph.

Also, I started never trusting the experiences that were put in the mags. Simply because I saw how they were worked-over at the assemblies. Whenever they quoted someone about this or that, their English was too perfect, or they included too many details to have been an off the cuff comment. I also noticed they would quote someone on something that they themselves did not want to say, so that you could not say that they (the WT) said it. Yet, they still wanted you to believe it.

All this is done under the guise of "the end justifies the means." Theocratic Warfare at its best!