Posts by Bobcat

43

Interesting Comment From an Active Elder

by DarioKehl in

i was recently speaking to an elder "off the record" while helping him do some house repairs.

i have a comfortable enough relationship to speak openly with him about things, but am careful to disclose the extent of my disbelief in wt doctrine.

anyway, this guy wouldn't last a day in the mafia because he can't keep anything confidential.

Bobcat

LoisLane:

When I partook I was in a front row facing forward. I am not sure if you are familiar with "the dance." But the procedure is for the speaker to serve the servers then one of the servers serves the speaker. It is incredibly ritualistic. I always had a problem with it, but went along anyways.

At any rate, the elders have NEVER spoken to me about this. They have never brought the topic up. And I never said anything to them about it. It is the proverbial elephant in the room.

Curiously, one sister congratulated me afterwards. Almost like I had gotten a promotion of sorts?!?! No one else said anything to me about it.

Later that year another sister asked me at the DC 'whats it feel like?' But that is about it. I told her she was asking the wrong question. I simply did what I was told to do.

Sometimes I think some bring up the topic of living on earth just to see if I might comment in such a way as to show a discrepancy in my beliefs. (The discrepancy would be wanting to live on earth but partaking - which, by the Society's reckoning means one should be hoping to go to heaven.)

Take Care (Oh yea, I'm closer to the Atlantic than the Pacific.)

43

Interesting Comment From an Active Elder

by DarioKehl in

i was recently speaking to an elder "off the record" while helping him do some house repairs.

i have a comfortable enough relationship to speak openly with him about things, but am careful to disclose the extent of my disbelief in wt doctrine.

anyway, this guy wouldn't last a day in the mafia because he can't keep anything confidential.

Bobcat

00DAD:

Is there another way to start partaking besides "out of the blue"?

Since I gave a little of my experience earlier, I'll add to it on account of the "out of the blue" comment.

The year before I began partaking I was one of the servers at the Memorial. As the brother was giving the talk, something struck me about his use of John 10:16. Thinking back now, I'm not exactly sure what it was, only that something was amiss. It led to months of research on the subject of partaking at the Lord's Evening Meal. The answer that my research was consistantly coming up with was that all Christians should partake.

After concluding that, I then went about researching and pondering the idea that since my partaking would be controversial at the Hall, maybe it would be best to refrain so as to not make any sort of public spectacle. I spent several months considering that, but again concluded that if it was a command to do it, then, there was no getting around it.

Having concluded that, with several months before the Memorial, I decided that I would attend another congregation for the Memorial so as not to cause any 'scene.' Unfortunately, the other elders decided amongst themselves that I would give the memorial talk. They decided this without my presence for the decision.

So, the first time was literally in front of all 200 or so and as the last one served the emblems. It was a shock to many, to be sure. I did reword the outline in such a way as to avoid saying anything against what I then understood to be the truth about it. As far as I can tell, no one noticed, which coincides with what others say about a lack of analytical thought in general at the KH. As a curious side note, many more visitors partook than is usual. I kind of think they may have picked up on my rewording more than the congregation members.

Needless to say, I never was given the Memorial talk again due to the fact that by the time the next Memorial came around I was no longer an elder.

There was nothing "out of the blue" about my decision to partake. I saw it as a well-considered act of faith in God, Jesus and His Word that, ironically enough, would be roundly condemned by the Society.

Take Care

43

Interesting Comment From an Active Elder

by DarioKehl in

i was recently speaking to an elder "off the record" while helping him do some house repairs.

i have a comfortable enough relationship to speak openly with him about things, but am careful to disclose the extent of my disbelief in wt doctrine.

anyway, this guy wouldn't last a day in the mafia because he can't keep anything confidential.

Bobcat

DATA:

"How comforting it is to know that the younger anointed contemporaries of those older anointed ones who discerned the sign when it became evident beginning in 1914 will not die off before the great tribulation starts! "

This part of the quotation above struck me as possibly being a mind-constraining device. They introduce this new understanding of "this generation," and before you get a chance to debate it or analyze it, they are already congratulating the readers for how comforting this new understanding is. It's like heading off the mind's reasoning ability before it gets a chance to engage the new understanding.

43

Interesting Comment From an Active Elder

by DarioKehl in

i was recently speaking to an elder "off the record" while helping him do some house repairs.

i have a comfortable enough relationship to speak openly with him about things, but am careful to disclose the extent of my disbelief in wt doctrine.

anyway, this guy wouldn't last a day in the mafia because he can't keep anything confidential.

Bobcat

DarioKehl:

He said: ". . . in my experience, any time someone starts partaking out of the blue, it's only a matter of months before they become apostate."

He may very well be correct, . . . from his perspective.

I started partaking a few years ago. I started doing it because I recognized from the Bible that that is what Christians were supposed to do.

Consider just this one difference:

Jesus gave the reason for partaking as: ". . . in rememberence of me [Jesus]"

Paul put it this way: "For when you [partake] you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord . . ."

But in the Kingdom Hall, when you partake, you are proclaiming your 'hope,' that you are 'anointed and are going to heaven.

In the Bible, it is all about Jesus. In the KH it is all about the partaker.

When I started partaking, I also recognized that I was contradicting WT teaching. Not just by partaking but for the reasons I was partaking. If I had claimed that I had had some kooky spiritual experience, I would have been accepted as another possible mental case, and for the WT, that's fine - because it dismisses me from being a serious 'contender,' if you will.

But to partake because the Bible says so, that means that what the WT teaches about it is false, which places me in the catagory of an apostate. Although, in reality, it is the WT that is the apostate, not me. But, as it is, those in charge are the ones who get to decide who the apostate is. Thus, your elder friend's viewpoint . . .

Thnaks for letting us in on the conversation. Very interesting indeed.

Take Care

7

Whatever happened to these prophecys . Zech. 8:23 / Isa..60 :22 .Do they ever refer to it now ?

by smiddy in

zech.

"this is what jehovah of armies has said...."it will be in those days that ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold ,yes they will actually take hold of the skirt of a man who is a jew saying:"we will go with you people,for we have heard that god is with you people ".. this was a scripture that was presented to me, that i was fullfilling bible prophecy , when i first became interested in jw`s and of course all other studies,baptisms that were occuring at that time .and the clincher of course was,.

isa.60:22 the little one himself will become a thousand and the small one a mighty nation.i myself jehovah,shall speed it up in it`s own time .. and i`m talking now about the early 1960`s.

Bobcat

Smiddy:

See my post 355 on this thread and my post 474 and 475 on this thread for some research related to Zech 8:23 and Isa 45:14.

I'm going to do some research on the Isa 60 reference because I can aleady see parts of it quoted by NT writers, which means right off the bat that they understood it differently from the WT - and without the two-class view - something that is akin to the "seperate but equal" idea from US history.

Take Care

12

Watch Tower Online Library "How The Governing Body Differs From A Legal Corporation" WT 2001 01/15

by frankiespeakin in

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2001051?q=governing+body&p=par.

another unforgettable annual meeting.

these questions were answered at the annual meeting held on october 1, 1971. on that occasion, one of the speakers pointed out that the governingbody of the faithful and discreet slave preceded the watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania by hundreds of years.

Bobcat

There is that, "Clearly then . . ." It has the same usefulness as, "The evidence points to the conclusion that . . ."

What was "clearly THEN" about the identities of the F&DS and GB has not proved to be so 'clear' today since they are changing the identities of the F&DS (the "anointed" - who are now being dismissed as an F&DS) and the GB (who are now being promoted to sole posession of the F&DS title).

42

Annual meeting. Greek scholars please help!

by DATA-DOG in

below is a statement from gb member gerrit losch.

notice what is said about the fds.

is this true?

Bobcat

DATA-DOG:

Notice also the standard "assertion" phraseology:

"The evidence points to the following conclusion"

Of course, no evidence is offered. 'All we know is that, whatever it is, it points to what we say it does'

25

Who is the faithful and discreet slave? Is a RHETORICAL question

by villagegirl in

what brought me out of the wt , was one day it dawned on me, mathew 25:35,36 ..i was hungry and you gave me food;i was thirsty and you gave me drink;i was a stranger and you took me in, i was naked and you clothes me,i was sick and you visited me, i was in prison and you came to me.

i was being told this was some "symbolic action" we were supposed to take towards the wt version of the faithful and discreet slave.

and something inside me just said, "no it isn't" its real.

Bobcat

VillageGirl:

Concerning the question, "Who really is the F&DS?", see my post 343 on this thread for some of the Greek behind "Who really is."

Take Care

7

Breaking Bread at the Lord's Evening Meal

by Bobcat in

just a question to elicit comments on a thought i had never considered before.. r.t. france, writing in the nicnt commentary on matthew says (about the last supper), "in breaking the bread he [jesus] symbolizes his own death .

france seems to indicate that there is some symbolic significance to the breaking of the bread.

he doesn't go into any more detail.

Bobcat

Everyone, thanks for your comments so far.

Londo:

Your quotation reminded me of my chuch upbringing many years ago. They said those words during communion if I remember.

QC:

No, I'm a few hours from Charlotte, but do have friends there that we visit from time to time.

Lars:

You're right about the somewhat brittle nature of unleavened bread.

Here is what further research has turned up so far:

I did find another commentary that mentioned this same idea of "breaking" the bread being parallel with Jesus' body being "broken" in death. But there was no elaboration on it in regards to it being part of the symbolism of the Lord's Evening Meal (LEM for short)

All of the accounts of the miraculous feedings include Jesus "breaking" the bread after saying a blessing. Presumably, these occasions were not limited to unleavened bread. So, "breaking" of the bread, at least on those occasions need not have been a literal necessity as it would have for unleavened bread. But it is hard to imagine Jesus personally "breaking" each and every peice for thousands.

In the ISBE (Vol I p.543), under the subject of bread, and the sub-section "Eating Bread," it says in part:

When bread was eaten by a group, the head of the household or the master of the community broke it [the bread] or tore it and gave a portion to everybody present. If meat, fish, or other food was offered together with the bread, it was often handed out from the common cooking pot with the help of a piece of bread.

This opens the possibility that the breaking and handing out of the bread at the LEM was simply Jewish custom with Jesus being the recognized "head" of the small Passover group there.

I'm still in the process of checking other sources. (I'm usually running several research projects at any given time - when time is available.) If I find anything new I will post it here.

Take Care

18

Some thoughts on the 'days' of Daniel 12

by Splash in

1260 days (dan 12:7).

1335 days (dan 12:12).

1260 days (dan 12:7).

Bobcat

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