Posts by Bobcat

16

A "New" Revelation Grand Climax at Hand book might be released for Book/Bible Study?

by booker-t in

jw
friends

a few elders i know said they hoped the wts would release a "new" revelation book to be studied during 2014. they said the jws need to be spiritually encourage at the "closeness" of the end and studying a "new" revelation book for 2014 might help shape up the flock of inactive, faders, disfellowship/disassociated jws to coming back.

posters what do you think a new rev book for 2014..

Bobcat

One sister said that one of the COs at the pioneer school said there was a new one in the works.

26

Peace and Security - When?

by rhodesboy in

my interpretation of gb (governing body) theology has illuminated a fate for mankind in the near future.

i invite you to read the following extracts and my analysis thereafter- theologists only please.. 1 thessalonians 5:3.

''whenever it is that they are saying: "peace and security!

Bobcat

On the subject of "Peace and Security" (1 Thess. 5) see my thread here. The idea of a future "peace and security" event is not inline with the context of 1 Thess. 5.

That does not rule out a possible conflict between the West and Russia. But the "peace and security" of 1 Thess 5 is the attitude of people towards "the day of Jehovah," not some human conflict. And as Paul said in 1 Thess. 5:6, 'the rest' were already in his day 'asleep' with regard to "Jehovah's Day."

14

In Revelation, why is one verse to be taken literally and the other figuratively?

by I_love_Jeff in

why is the great crowd in rev.7:9, standing before the throne mind you, to be taken figuratively and on earth if the same description (before the throne) in rev.

14:3 is used in a literal sense and in heaven?.

rev.

Bobcat

I_Love_Jeff:

This might not directly answer your question, but hopefully provide some material for consideration:

The Greek word rendered "before" (enopion, Strong's # 1799) is given these basic meanings in the AMG Word Study Greek Dictionary

I. Used of things meaning before, in front of. Elsewhere of persons, before, in the presence of, in sight of.

II. As marking the manner, especially the sincerity with which anything is done before God or in the sight of God, meaning God being present and witness [of].

III. Metaphorically, meaning in the sight of or in the mind, will, purpose or judgment of someone.

Just as a thought, it is possible (contra the Society) that in both Rev 7:9 and 14:3, "before" is not intended to show literal spatial orientation or location. 14:1 already shows a location for the 144,000 ('with the Lamb, on the Mount Zion.'), so that "before" may have one of the non-spatial meanings above. Otherwise it would be somewhat redundant.

Notice also in 14:3 that it is not just "before the throne" (which would be enough to show location in heaven, if that was the intent), but "before the thone and before the four living creatures and the elders." The singing of the song "before the four living creatures and the elders" may be intending to convey that the song the 144,000 sing has some relation or significance to them as well.

Another thing to consider is that the whole vision, starting from 4:1, is being seen in heaven. Yet, many of the things being seen by John are, as evidenced by the context, happening on earth. With that in mind, "before" may be more often used in metaphorical terms, rather than as a literal location identifier.

(Just as a side note: The fact that the song is sung "before the four living creatures and the elders" would logically identify the "[24] elders" as different from the 144,000, in the same way that it would differentiate the 144,000 from "the four living creatures." The Society identifies the "elders" as the same as the 144,000, further skewing their identification of the scene.)

(As another side note: In reference to the song of the 144,000 being sung before the "four living creatures and elders," Ephesians 1:8-11 mentions 'the things in the heavens and the things in the earth being gathered together under Christ,' so that the 'Lamb and 144,000' may represent a new ruling order in the heavens that will affect the situation of the '24 elders' and 'four living creatures.' This might answer to the reason that the song of the 144,000 is 'sung before them.' And again, the Society identifies "the things in the heavens" as the 144,000, further preventing them from seeing the possibilities mentioned here.)

For reference, here is a list of occurrences of enopion in Revelation:

1:4; 2:14; 3:2, 5 (x2), 8, 9; 4:5, 6, 10 (x2); 5:8; 7:9 (x2), 11, 15; 8:2, 3, 4; 9:13; 11:4, 16; 12:4, 10; 13:12, 13, 14; 14:3 (x2), 10 (x2); 15:4; 16:19; 19:20; 20:12

Here is a list of occurrences of histemi (stand) in Revelation (also showing a propensity towards metaphorical use:

3:20; 5:6; 6:17; 7:1, 9, 11; 8:2, 3; 10:5, 8; 11:4, 11; 12:4, 18; 14:1; 15:2; 18:10, 15, 17; 19:17; 20:12 (In a number of cases it occurs in conjunction with "before."

Take Care

51

Jeremiah Source Material

by Bobcat in

i started this thread as a single place for anyone who would like to add references to source material, or anything else for that matter, pertaining to the jeremiah book study.. .

page 52:.

here is a thread and numerous comments concerning jeremiah 13:1-11 and whether or not jeremiah traveled to the euphrates to hide a garment.. .

Bobcat

Jer 23:19, 20 - Question about this verse. See thread here.

29

New Arrangement: All Can Listen In to Bethel Annual Meeting

by Red Piller in

jw
friends

a letter read at our meeting.. .

our congregation is assigned a location (a nearby congregation) to listen (video, also?

) to the annual meeting.

Bobcat

All will have an opportunity to donate for a repackaged NWT with all the appendixes from the reference Bible.

(With duly made comparisons to store-bought Bible prices, so that an appropriate donation amount can be given. Remember, this will be a captive audience. And conveniently, Bibles haven't been available for a while, so that a 'need' has been established.)

9

WT Study for 2013/08/18 Jehovah's Generosity

by Bobcat in

for those who consider the wt study:.

there is an interesting distortion in this wt lesson.

paragraphs 4 - 8 form a sub-topic entitled "jehovah is generous.".

Bobcat

For those who consider the WT Study:

There is an interesting distortion in this WT lesson. Paragraphs 4 - 8 form a sub-topic entitled "Jehovah Is Generous."

Paragraph 8 starts by saying, "Jehovah's most generous gift is available to everyone. What is it? The ransom sacrifice of his Son." This is followed by a quotation of John 3:16, "God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son . . ."

The distortion is not so much in what the paragraph says, as in, what it does not say.

If you do a search on the word "gift*" in the WT Library, and focus on the results from Acts thru Jude, so as to see how the Bible letter writers explained the results of God 'giving Jesus' (per John 3:16), you will see that the majority of references pertain to God's "gift" involving the giving of the Spirit, and the various sub-gifts (if you will) that result from receiving the Spirit, all of which comes from 'exercising faith' in Jesus.

In a few instances "everlasting life" is described as the "gift." In a number of instances "undeserved kindness" (or "grace) is associated with "the gift of God." But by far, the most references to God's "gift" involve being given the Spirit, something the WT denies to the vast majority of JWs.

It's like the WT first takes the "gift," removes the contents, and hands JWs the wrapper, and says, 'Here's your gift from God.'

Here are some of the verses that resulted from my search of the WT Library:

Acts 2:38, 39; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17

Rom 3:24; 5:15-17; 6:23; 9:28-32; 12:6

1Co chaps. 12-14

Eph 2:8; 3:7; 4:7, 8

Heb 6:4

1Pe 4:10

Edited to add:

I re-thought that there might be a needed explanation concerning the Spirit being given. The WT does not deny that JWs can receive holy spirit as pre-Christian servants of God are sometimes described as having.

They do deny that most JWs can receive it in the way the NT Bible writers were talking about it. As Galatians 3:14 (and context) alludes to, the gift of the Spirit involved being accepted into the New Covenant and, by relation to Jesus in faith, becoming part of "Abraham's seed." This, the WT most strongly denies to all but 144,000, stretching over a period from about 33 AD to present.

100

Upcoming KM!! Why we are not False Prophets!

by DATA-DOG in

this subject is coming up this month in the tms.

i just thought i would start a post for newbies or lurkers.

if you have any scans of the awake inside cover that would be awesome.

Bobcat

AndDontCallMeShirley:

"In 1942 the "faithful and discreet slave" guided by Jehovah's unerring spirit made known that the democracies would win World War II and that there would be a United Nations organization set up." Watchtower 1960 Jul 15 p. 444

See my first post on this thread for a fuller understanding of the Society's view of how WWII would end. They had all their bases covered.

Take Care

100

Upcoming KM!! Why we are not False Prophets!

by DATA-DOG in

this subject is coming up this month in the tms.

i just thought i would start a post for newbies or lurkers.

if you have any scans of the awake inside cover that would be awesome.

Bobcat

when Clyde and I asked about the scripture about not knowing the hour or the day, the response was, "But it doesn't say we don't know the year."

From the Baker Exegetical Commentary on the NT (p. 588):

The expression "that day and hour" is a general time indicator, not a precise expression implying a specific time of day (cf [Matthew] 7:22; 10:19; 24:42, 44, 50; 25:13; 26:45).

"That day" is an expression used in Matthew (and elsewhere, e.g. Heb 10:25) to refer to the eschatalogical "day of the Lord." "Hour" is an idiom that corresponds with our use of "time." (You could replace "hour" in Mt 24:36 with "time" and get the modern equivalent meaning.) Thus, contrasting 'knowing the year' but not knowing the "day and hour" reflects a modern, stop-watch style misunderstanding of the phrase.

Not knowing "that day and hour" in Matthew 24:36 is in contrast to Jesus statement in Matthew 24:34 that, "this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. In Matthew 24:34 Jesus does profess to know "that day and hour" when "these things" will occur (within "this generation"). But in Matthew 24:36 Jesus professes to not know "that day and hour" when his parousia will occur. This is another indication that Matthew 24:4-35 and 24:36-25:46 are referring to two different time periods.

17

Publisher Attendance Records

by Lozza Aussie in

i was sitting at meeting the other night and happen to notice an elder with a sheet of paper with the title of the above post.

it appears to have been composed on a computer, not a form printed by the org.

on it were all the names of the people in this particular elders group and there were columns for the days of the week when we have our meetings.

Bobcat

Notice the difference between the two men in this illustration:

(Luke 18:9-14) . . .But he spoke this illustration also to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and who considered the rest as nothing: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and began to pray these things to himself, ‘O God, I thank you I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give the tenth of all things I acquire.' 13 But the tax collector standing at a distance was not willing even to raise his eyes heavenward, but kept beating his breast, saying, ‘O God, be gracious to me a sinner.' 14 I tell YOU, This man went down to his home proved more righteous than that man; because everyone that exalts himself will be humiliated, but he that humbles himself will be exalted."

Although the example is short, it is curious that the Pharisee in the example is basing his righteousness on numbers, whereas, the tax collector - a 'numbers' man by profession - makes no mention of any statistical data. I've often wondered if this part of the comparison was intentional by Jesus. The Pharisee in the example was attempting to quantify his spirituality. (Compare also the parable of the talents [Mt 25:14-30] and the example of the widow giving the two small coins [Luke 21:1-4], where how much the individual did or gave was less important than their circumstances and personal effort.)

As far as meeting attendance goes, it is easy to quantify attendance: "Yes" or "No." But how would one quantify a person's health? Economic or job circumstances? etc. Does the statistic keeper know if the person attended a different congregation's meeting? One elder here worked overtime for about a year while his employer introduced a new product line. Do you quit a job that has provided many years of steady income simply because of a relatively short fluxuation?

In the first century, where society was divided up into "rich" and "slaves" and "free persons," not all would have the same opportunities. By its nature, a meeting has to have a set time. But "slaves" would not be in so much control of when they were free to meet. Meeting statistics would tell you who had perfect circumstances and who had abandoned meeting altogether. But they wouldn't help you understand the bulk of people's circumstances.

With regard to meetings, it is interesting that the writer of Hebrews 10:25 says, ". . .not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom. . ." "Not foresking" and making a "custom" of missing meetings is different from saying, 'do not miss any meetings.' The NIV Application Commentary on Hebrews notes about this verse (George H. Guthrie, p. 348):

Another caution is in order with regard to the author's [of Hebrews] challenge to "not give up meeting together." This exhortation has been used at times to exhort church members to attend every meeting offered by the church during the week . . .

The principle behind this part of the author's challenge, however, has to do with consistant involvement in the life of the church rather than frenetic activity in all programs of the church. We as church leaders must not burden people with a guilt trip if they are not at the church five nights a week.

[End of quote.]

I can see where WT regimentation and statistical dependence causes a lot of people to be thrown by the wayside.

31

Will Jehovah's Witnesses Populate Other Planets?

by God_Delusion in

hi guys,.

when i was growing up and pressured into having a bible study (although we didn't use the bible that much), i would ask my bible study conductor questions like:.

why are there so many other planets?.

Bobcat

See my post on this thread for a connection with this topic and the promise to Abraham.