RationalWitness

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Posts by RationalWitness

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  13

  thousands and thousands killed by nazis

  by buffalosrfree in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  oh one more thing, i remembered wife saying, said speaker at yesterdays meeting mentioned that "thousands and thousands, of jdubs were killed ny the nazis.

  can you believe it, wish he had of checked with the watchtower observer and really seen just how many thousands of thousands equated to.

  i guess you don't have to tell the truth there you just have to keep repeating liesk, because if you tell a lie long enough it eventually will sound like the truth.

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  RationalWitness

  Is there any truth to the rumor that Awake! magazine is soon to be renamed Holocaust Memories?

  Rational, who wonders why the Society can't just forget WWII and get on with their life ...
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  59

  Blood, The Watchtower and Deceit

  by Maximus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while much attention is given to doctrine in sites such as this, very little is noted about the watchtower societys intellectual dishonesty in its publications, especially when it comes to quotations.. oftentimes the societys writers will cite a scholar or author of some repute: "professor blank observes that blah, blah, blah.

  " the reader assumes from the quotation that professor blank is in agreement with the organizations position, of course, and that the quotation chosen accurately depicts the authors thoughts.. heres the catch: the words between the quotation marks may be accurate, but the snippet may not at all faithfully represent someones actual thesis or position.

  much like a newspaper ad for a movie that quotes a reviewer as saying "monumental!

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  RationalWitness

  Maximus,

  I was unable to decipher the content of your post to "CS, DS, and RW" (assuming I am the "RW" in question). Look forward to hearing from you, my friend. I've been enjoying your much too infrequent posts.

  Cheers!
  RW
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  8

  To: Uncle Onion & Ros

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi uncle & ros: buried deep down in tina's post uncle asked whether i was an atheist and ros noted that she thought i was a liberal christian.

  i have been going through an evolution in my life, but i will try to give a good snapshot of where i am at now.

  i may yet change one way or another:.

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  RationalWitness

  Hi Amazing!

  Glad to hear you'll be at BRCI. I enjoyed your presentation last year. Look forward to some more good discussions with you.

  Cheers!
  Rational
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  46

  The BRCI Conference

  by larc in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  are any of you going to the brci conference in waterloo, canada?

  it should be coming up soon, in a matter of weeks.

  they are a really good group of x's.

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  RationalWitness

  Hi HadEnough,

  I had concerns similar to yours when I attended BRCI for the first time three years ago. In fact, I was still serving as an elder at the time! Despite my anxiety, there did not appear to be any 'trolls' there, and I had a wonderful time. Couldn't make it the following year, but did last year and will do so again this year. Of course, there is no guarantee that some curious JW won't venture in, but what are the odds he'd recognize you?

  If you do make it, I'll look forward to meeting you.

  Cheers!
  Rational
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  46

  The BRCI Conference

  by larc in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  are any of you going to the brci conference in waterloo, canada?

  it should be coming up soon, in a matter of weeks.

  they are a really good group of x's.

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  RationalWitness

  Ros,

  Based on my conversations with Amazing at last year's BRCI, and a subsequent breakfast together, I would agree with you: he is a liberal Christian. BTW, I'll be at BRCI again this year. Wouldn't miss getting together with all the old ex-Bethelites. Sorry you'll miss it. We'll raise a toast to you!

  Cheers!
  RW
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  18

  Do all Bethelite marriages end up happy?

  by freddi in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just wanted to know if anyone out there knew the stats for bethelite marriages ending happily ever after.

  whenever i would visit bethel, it seemed as though all the married couples were in it for life.

  i know that marriage is supposed to be until death do you part but we all know that things do occur.

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  RationalWitness

  Metatron,

  Yes, I remember Zelda Chyke. I feared her more than I feared her husband. She was quite a Valkyrie.

  The one who left her husband and ran off with another Betehelite was Fred Maes' wife (I forget her first name.) He came to Bethel from Circuit/District work and was a very nice guy, down to earth, spiritually minded, but not self-righteous. His wife was not the only Bethel sister to run off with another man ... it happened at least twice during the mid-1970's. Alcoholism was a problem for some Bethel sisters who just could not adapt to institutional life, but had no options since their hubbie's were too high up in the hierarchy to relinquish such glory.

  Rational
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  18

  Musings on the WTS Funk

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the watchtower society is in a funk.

  no doubt about it.

  it is stagnant and paralyzed by its own inertia.. it has survived for one and one quarter centuries for a few very simple reasons: .

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  RationalWitness

  Farkel,

  You are quite right on all points. And this is precisely why the Society will continue to operate, derspite some losses, even in the United States and other 'developed' countries. As a long-time close friend and elder explained to me (as we were discussing my criticisms of the Organization), "I know, but when I think too deeply about it [the Society's teachings and practices], it's hard to stay motivated." So his solution is ... simply don't think about it "too deeply". And that's what the vast majority of JWs will continue to do: just let the Organization tell them what to think and what to do. The blind leading the blind. As you put it, they are intellectually and spiritually too lazy to assume responsibility for themselves.

  Thanks for the excellent post.

  Rational (of the "Longs for the 'golden days' of H2O posts" class)
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  17

  Things I found when my mom died...very interesting

  by PurpleV in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  thanks to all for replying to my first newbie post.. i am here because scally asked me to repeat a post i made on tishie's board here, because you guys might be interested in talking about them.

  (i also think i will stay here, cause you guys sound cool.).

  my mom died in april, a lifelong jw.

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  RationalWitness

  PurpleV,

  Is there anyway we could get a scan of that back-call slip. It's an historical item and should be preserved, along with the old "Who Will Conquer the World in the 1970's?" assembly badges, etc.

  Rational
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  12

  Get a Life!

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  imho, there is no ad hominem worse, no ad hominem more denigrating, and no ad hominem more evil than the expression "get a life!".

  i've used it myself in the past.

  it's a quick and down-and-dirty put down.

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  RationalWitness

  Hi again Farkel. Both you AND Alan F. pointed out to me that my moniker was an oxymoron. But in truth, I recognized it myself and found it amusing. Came across this board a couple weeks ago and found it more to my liking than H2O (where I stopped posting a year or more ago). People seem generally respectful of one another here. Anyway, my time is pretty limited; don't know how often I'll post, but I'll certainly lurk.

  Best wishes,
  Rational
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  12

  Get a Life!

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  imho, there is no ad hominem worse, no ad hominem more denigrating, and no ad hominem more evil than the expression "get a life!".

  i've used it myself in the past.

  it's a quick and down-and-dirty put down.

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  RationalWitness

  Farkel,

  You raise an interesting subject, and one which certainly has implications for Christians at the very least. I think the matter goes deeper than just one expression, “Get a life,” however. In his ‘sermon on the mount’ Jesus suggests that the elimination of anger and contempt are really at issue. He points out the moral inadequacy of the commandment ‘not to kill’ as a guide to relationships with others who anger us, and identifies a threefold elevation of hostility that includes (but supercedes) your concern:

  “You heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You must not murder; but whoever commits a murder will be accountable to the court of justice.’ However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt [Raca] will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Gehenna.” (Matt. 5:21-22)

  Of course, we all get angry at times. In its simplest form anger is a spontaneous response, and as such, it is not particularly controllable. It is a feeling that seizes our body and immediately impels us instinctively and often thoughtlessly to react toward some perceived interference with our life, our will. But it is in its own right—-independent of resulting actions-—an injury to others. When I discover your anger at me, I am already wounded, and my stress level is raised. It may also evoke my anger in return. As we know, anger feeds on anger.

  As a response toward those who we perceive have interfered with us, anger includes a will to harm them, or the beginnings thereof. Some degree of malice is contained in every degree of anger. That is why it always hurts us when someone is angry with us personally. We never choose to have others angry with us unless some ulterior end were to be gained by it. We know that people who are angry with us intend to make a painful impression on us.

  Anger first arises spontaneously. But we can actively receive it and decide to indulge it, and many often do. Some even seem to keep a reserve on hand, ready for any occasion, and any disagreement can evoke a torrent of rage in response. I believe we see this with some who get caught up in what might be called “poster rage” (similar to the modern phenomenon of “road rage”, but incidental to Internet forums such as xjw boards). Anger indulged, instead of simply waved off, always has in it an element of self-righteousness and vanity. Find a person who has embraced anger, and you find a person with a wounded ego. And inevitably, the sense of self-righteousness that comes with our anger simply provokes more anger and self-righteousness on the other side. There is nothing that can be done with anger that cannot be done better without it, including argumentation and debate.

  Anger in this sense is pretty common to human life and is still no great sin (if you read Jesus’ words as hyperbole, which I do), even though it is still better avoided where possible. (Headaches are no sin, but do we really need them?) But anger can easily turn into something that is inherently evil and entirely avoidable.

  Contempt is a greater evil than anger and so is deserving of greater condemnation. Unlike innocent anger, at least, it is a kind of studied degradation of another, and it also is more pervasive in life than anger. This is why, Jesus tells us, “Whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt [literally “Raca,” Aramaic] will be accountable to the Supreme Court.” The NIV footnote indicates “Raca” may be derived from the Aramaic word “empty” and have the sense of “empty-head” or, as we might call someone today, “braindead fundie.”

  We can be angry at someone without denying their worth. But contempt makes it easier for us to hurt them or see them further degraded. Filthy language and name calling are always an expression of contempt. To be respected as having equal value is a vital need of every human being. Contempt spits on this universal and deep-seated need. And, like anger, contempt does not have to be acted out in overtly harmful ways to be evil. It can hurt so badly and destroy so deeply that it’s easy to see why Jesus juxtaposed such behavior with the hateful extreme of murder.

  The expression “Raca” is not necessarily said in anger and might even be used at times with a certain amusement. “Fool,” on the other hand, in the sense implied in Jesus’ progression, is always an expression of malice as well as contempt. It does not simply have the sense of a term like “braindead”, but implies a deeper harm than either anger or contempt alone. Excuse the crudity, but a near equivalent in today’s language might be something like “bitch” or “bastard”, as said to someone who has just embarrassed or irritated us.

  So, what is it, exactly, that is being done in Jesus’ delineation of this progression of prohibitions from anger to contempt to verbal desecration? The answer is that he is giving us a revelation of the preciousness of human beings. He means to reveal the infinite value of persons, including their sense of self-worth, their right to dignity. Obviously merely not killing others cannot begin to do justice to that. He is not setting out ‘rules’ or ‘laws’ to replace older ones; he is using hyperbole to demonstrate what kind of people we ought to be, how we ought to treat others. And I think implementing his lesson would preclude using expressions like "get a life" (not to mention the much more stringent ones!).

  By the way, non-theists might appreciate the thoughtful discussions of David Hume on hatred, anger, and contempt in his Treatise of Human Nature, book 2, sections vi-x.

  Regards,
  Rational