Posts by raven101

97

WAR & RUMORS OF (NUCLEAR) WAR

by You Know in

a question for all to consider is: if pakistan and india go nuclear, as seems to becoming more likely by the day, how long will civilization be able to stay intact without completely unraveling, and during that interval will ridiculers be able to maintain the delusion that nothing out of the ordinary is happening in the world?

/ you know.

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/753586.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1

raven101

http://nuclear.bigmir.net/Nuclear/Cromeo1.jpe

Jiddu Krishnamurti on Truth and Freedom

by raven101 in

i'm posting this very late in the day but i hope someone gets the opportunity to read and benefit from this, krishnamurti was a very interesting man to say the least.

krishnamurti home - krishnamurti links - katinka's weblife - lost?

sitemap .

raven101

I'm posting this very late in the day but I hope someone gets the opportunity to read and benefit from this, krishnamurti was a very interesting man to say the least.

Krishnamurti home - Krishnamurti links - Katinka's weblife - Lost? Sitemap
Eclectic Theosophical History

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Lecture given by J. Krishnamurti, in 1929,
when he dissolved the Order of the Star of the East.

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We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain....

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organised; nor should any organisation be formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others.

This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley....

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organisations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organisation of a spiritual kind; please understand this....

If an organisation be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it.

This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this; not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions, may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.

Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussion year after year.

A newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organisation in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because he said: "What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you." If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves?....

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole, not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal, I desire those, who seek to understand me, to be free, not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears - from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want any thing from anyone. You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers - a miracle - transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyse what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally....

For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organised, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you new encouragement, who would set you free - and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different - not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organisation of the Star become different?....

You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else.... when I say look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organisation?....

No man from outside can make you free; nor can organised worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organisation, nor throwing yourselves into work, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an alter and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organisations become your chief concern. "How many members are there in it?" That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. "How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false." I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. If there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough....

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity....

You have been accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible?....

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without a beginning and without an end, will walk together with greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real co-operation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So those are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone - I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organisations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free.

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Krishnamurti home - Krishnamurti links - Katinka's weblife - Lost? Sitemap

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25

Will the Wt Split?

by Satanus in

based on the pressure that is building both within the rank and file and in the top management, i was wondering about the possibility of the wt fracturing into 2 groups: fundamentalist and liberal.

the gb has recently taken a back seat to 3 new corporations.

these were added to the multitude of corps they already have.

raven101

Hi SaintSatan!

Although at this point anything is conceivable, I would be surprised if the org. were to split. It would require a drastic and rapid decrease in members, also the members themselves (the nes leaving would pretty much have to be the ones initiating the liberal branch . . . were the 'old guard' to do it it would be an admission of ignorance. Of course they could always organize a liberal segment on the sly, if things get bad enough I wouldn't be surprised.

Just for curiosities sake I wonder what the liberal policies might be, well I'll bet their blood policy would be different!

How would they change disfellowshipping policies?

Hmmmmm . . . I wonder,

raven101

35

Please help, please???? (batting eyelashes)

by outnfree in

i was so happy to read the following quote by janh in another thread: about logic vs reason[ did jan mean emotion here?

], i think a factor may well be that fewer women have high education.

it is a worrying trend that women still do not choose education in 'hard sciences.

raven101

Congratulations on your first college class outnfree! I just finished my fourth full time semester, I really love school. Some words of encouragement, it gets considerably easier once you get through the first couple semesters. Also, never underestimate the value of communication with your professors!

seven006 addressed my take on the assignment with the point about morality being an individual 'reality'.

Was this Q? assigned specifically to address morality?

If not I would change my wording to logic or reason as seven006 suggested, if so the subject of morality itself should take up a significant portion of your paper.

Morality is a personal as well as cultural and societal issue. The prevailing religion of a community or culture will dictate at LEAST the basic framework of a peoples concept of morality. This is evidenced by the very different practices witnessed worldwide.

Infanticide in India and China for example, is commonplace. People who are members of the Jehovahs Witness organization believe it to be a moral necessity to refuse some life saving medical procedures.
There still exist indigenous tribes that practice cannibalism.

Personally I would argue that morality is the personal differentiation between right and wrong, therefore, issues like euthanasia should be left entirely to the discretion of the person in question.

I would show examples of the diametric opposition in different cultures (as well as individuals) concepts of morality, illustrate the importance individuals place on their perception of morality, and stress the injustice of imposing upon it.

Have fun!

Raven101

10

THEOCRACY looks like FASCISM

by garybuss in

fascism vs theocracy.

commentary by gary busselman.

theocracy: god rule.

raven101

This is really an excellent and illuminating point garybuss!

"warlike policies, e.g. Theocratic War Strategy, and hatred of perceived enemies [often dissenting former group members]."

Most certainly, every other human and organization is identified to some degree with 'the ultimate enemy' satan.

"In most cases, fascists have come to power after a nation has suffered an economic collapse, a military defeat, or some other disaster."

Yes, and if you think about it this applies in the case of every individual, when are people indoctrinated ? usually (if not always) at some point of great crisis or need in their lives.

I don't see how anyone can (with correctly applied logic anyway) deny this similarity.

raven101

3

Q? Is violence a product of logic, or emotion?

by raven101 in

is violence a product of logic, or emotion?

for example the guy who stomped the old gentleman to death in a parking lot, the men who beat their wives, children, and stepchildren to death, the barroom brawls, and gang activities .

are these acts of cool, unbiased logic?.

raven101

My point, COMF, is to address the age-old established fallacy that men are more logical and less emotional than women, with statistical evidence to the contrary.

raven101

3

Q? Is violence a product of logic, or emotion?

by raven101 in

is violence a product of logic, or emotion?

for example the guy who stomped the old gentleman to death in a parking lot, the men who beat their wives, children, and stepchildren to death, the barroom brawls, and gang activities .

are these acts of cool, unbiased logic?.

raven101

IS VIOLENCE A PRODUCT OF LOGIC, OR EMOTION?

For example the guy who stomped the old gentleman to death in a parking lot, the men who beat their wives, children, and stepchildren to death, the barroom brawls, and gang activities . . . are these acts of cool, unbiased logic?

Obviously not. They are acts of uncontrolled, illogically vented emotion.

Which gender (as a whole, I'm not putting all eggs into one basket as SOME people are foolish enough to do) is most prone to succumbing to expression of ILLOGICAL violence?

Think about it.

EverLogical

Raven101

26

Mind Control in the Watchtower

by SYN in

introduction .

having been a witness for many, many years, about 15 to be exact, i just thought i'd explain a few things for new-comers to this site about what it's like to be a "dub".

"dub" is just a convenient shorthand for "jehovah's witness", and is not meant to be derogatory, but i think i will stick to calling them witnesses here for the sake of people visiting during the furore upon whose brink we are sitting.. much of those early years i don't really remember.

raven101

By the way, the only 'demons' in your computer were the 'demons' of logic . . . the last thing they wanted you to be exposed to.

raven101

26

Mind Control in the Watchtower

by SYN in

introduction .

having been a witness for many, many years, about 15 to be exact, i just thought i'd explain a few things for new-comers to this site about what it's like to be a "dub".

"dub" is just a convenient shorthand for "jehovah's witness", and is not meant to be derogatory, but i think i will stick to calling them witnesses here for the sake of people visiting during the furore upon whose brink we are sitting.. much of those early years i don't really remember.

raven101

That was great 'reasoning from without the scriptures' SYN!

You brought up some points I had never thought of, as well as some
information I was never aware of. And the post was not so full of anger that it took away from the message.

god its nice to be free of religion!

raven101

24

Help, my son misses the hall...

by termite 35 in

he really does.. we had a long chat tonight and he was really sad.we were never integrated into jw society,so it's not the people;he justsaid ...'want to belong to god's family'?

!i went through a few more points as to why the wtbs wer'nt the 'right' religion and asked him if he felt god was happy with people who lie.he re-accepted that and then said'so,how do you know where to go?i tried to explain it by asking him if he thought god looked at congregations or individuals and we got to the conclusion that it's probably individuals.... my point is, he wants to go to his teachers church,and i don't.my husband has never been interested in religion in any form and as the months go by,i feel less and less inclined to be involved in any religion.he has a strong christian theme at his school, but done nicely, so i know his desperation is,nt all 'my fault' but i feel guilty at making him so desperate to find the place he feels comfortable in.he's only 8 and an obsessed sports fan who has a very loving ,full life-but he's unhappy at night and i'm so worried it's my fault.i feel so depressed tonight and responsible for messing up his head with it all.the point is.... do i take him to his teachers church even though i have no desire to?how long would i have to go, feeling a hypocrite?.

what will it do to him if i don't try to help him practically with how he's feeling?.

raven101

Termite,

I think you are right for being concerned about your sons focus right now, especially if you get the feeling that he is afraid of 'displeasing god'.

Pretty much any dogmatic religion whether christianity, islaam, etc works from a basis of fear, although mainstream christianity is better than jws in that at least those who 'accept christ as their personal saviour'' are guaranteed safe harbor, it still damns all the rest.

That's scary.

I would advise exposing him to a variety of belief systems, not inundate him, but just show him that there are many beliefs, and explain that all are valid in their way.

Some eastern philosophy could be invaluable to him, something that stresses individual responsibility in a POSITIVE way. Responsibility for knowing the inherent value of self, the inherent goodness, strength, and beauty WITHIN.

Jiddu Krishnamurti has one of the most beautiful and positive philosophys, his stress is on love, and freedom from fear. Though he will need some help from you as it may be a bit abstract for an 8 yr old, he wrote 'The Life Ahead' (or just 'life ahead') particularly for young people.

Another is Lao Tse . . . you will find a good translation at
http://www.edepot.com/tao8.html
Lao Tse's writing is very brief and poetic, very meditative and soothing.

You won't find any hellfire, gehenna, devil or demons, no god for that matter in these writings. The only hell they speak of is the one people create for themselves in their own minds.

You say your son is a sensitive soul, well sensitive people are the strongest in the world . . . unless someone convinces them to turn over their power to another source, then they are at risk of becoming victims of their own sensitivity.

My best advice would be to lead him AWAY FROM THE HELLFIRE, I can't agree that it is harmless (though it certainly is for SOME). Fear based, condemning religions have wrought some of the most evil suffering on the world.

Best luck to you and yours,

raven101