Posts by rem

25

Question for gay people

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

the question is about the term "tolerance" or "tolerating".. when someone says something along the lines of "i'm very tolerant of gay people" or "gay people should be tolerated", how do you feel?.

the reason i ask is this: doesn't the concept of tolerating something imply a background negative?

for instance, i can say "i tolerate my brother-in-law".

rem

Sunchild,

In a word, suspicious. Whenever someone makes a point of telling me how "tolerant" they are of lesbians, gays and/or Black people, I know that deep down, they're probably bigots. If they accepted me completely, it would go without saying. They wouldn't have to put on a show for my benefit.

I see what you are saying here – and I certainly wouldn’t be friends with people who could only tolerate my lifestyle or skin color, but I don’t think it is that simple. I don’t think someone is necessarily a bigot just because they don’t approve of a certain lifestyle. Most of us were JW’s and we can understand the power of indoctrination from early age. If someone is told over and over and over again that gay people are bad, well, then most of them will probably end up believing it. I feel sorry for those people because they haven’t been exposed to the real world. I think that many would change their views if they were exposed to gay people in everyday life. Heck, most of those same people would never have any issues with gay people at all if they were never unfairly indoctrinated since before they could make their own choice.

I guess that’s why I feel sorry for people who are only tolerant, but I think bigotry is a word that should be reserved for intolerant people. At least people have a choice – regardless of indoctrination – whether to be tolerant or not. Once people broaden their horizons, it seems that tolerant people have a greater chance of becoming accepting. But these are only my opinions – I haven’t had to feel scorn of intolerance that many minority groups have had to face. I have faced rejection from my JW friends who don’t accept me anymore because of my beliefs, but again, I feel sorry for them because I know that they have only seen one side of the story.

Respectfully,

rem

124

I Think That I Chose My Parents.

by Englishman in

jw
friends

do you believe in reincarnation?.

i dont think i believe in it in the same way that most believers do, which is that we keep coming back in different fleshly bodies until we have achieved perfection.. i do, however, strongly suspect that we may well be spirit creatures who find it necessary to inhabit a fleshly body from time to time, and that this entails us having to leave behind most of our past memories.. i say most memories, because many people seem to have some vestigal recollections that don`t seem to fit in with earthly experiences.. i`m pretty sure that i chose my parents!

i have a recollection of being shown a young and kind couple through some form of astral telescope and choosing to become their son.

rem

It seems that some people here think that because they believe in paranormal experiences they are some sort of minority and they are one step ahead of modern science. That is not the case. All throughout history and even today, the majority of humankind has believed in the supernatural. Only with the advent of science has a minority of rational thinkers rejected this popular view. It is actually this minority who is like Galileo. Our ideas are scoffed at because they go against human intuition, but scientific discovery always wins out in the end. We are the real risk takers. This is easily shown when we are persecuted simply for providing scientific evidence for our position. It’s the rational thinkers who are ganged up on by the majority on this thread.

I also cringe when I hear that these supernatural ideas are scientific. They are not. Frauds and Charlatans throw around scientific sounding jargon all the time to make their claims sound more believable. A red flag should always go up when you hear the words “quantum mechanics”, “positive ions”, “frequencies”, “vibrations”, etc. The people who use these words to back their claims can’t even explain what they mean by using them. They are just used to make their claims sound scientific (which they are not) and to confuse people into thinking that they would never be able to understand how the thing works.

People like Galileo held their evidence to a higher standard than the norm. Today it is the same. The standard for evidence is pitifully low for most people. It is the minority of rational thinkers who have held a higher standard that is today called the Scientific Method. They are the true innovators of the modern world.

Think about this for a second – if you didn’t know that a magician was just performing tricks, wouldn’t you think he was actually performing real magic? Magicians do phenomenal mind reading tricks all of the time. Even though I know they are only tricks, I am amazed. How much more are we amazed if we don’t actually know it’s just a trick! Humans are extremely easy to fool – until we get the information we need to keep from being tricked. It may still be our senses that are tricked, but at least we know the underlying principles behind the trick – and we understand that it is not magic, paranormal, or supernatural.

I urge everyone to read some of the books I recommended above. I guarantee you will be enlightened. You will be able to better hone your BS detectors and keep from being hoodwinked by these frauds.

rem

10

Tolerance

by Esmeralda in

jw
friends

after observing a couple of the current threads on this board, i thought that i'd throw this.

issue out there to see what people think.

i'm really curious.. has it been your experience that people who were jehovah's witnesses in the past tend to carry.

rem

The statement earlier made that an opinion should only be respected if it is based on fact blows me away (& I mean opinions that don't harm anyone). To me, an opinion means there are no facts to substantiate it. Thus you go by what you feel to be true.

Interesting you feel that way. In my experience opinions that have no facts to substantiate them are worthless. Of course I’m not talking about opinions like “I like chocolate ice cream better than vanilla”. Those truly are inconsequential opinions. I think what we are really talking about are beliefs.

With the chocolate vs. vanilla example – I have no problem respecting that opinion. Let’s turn the chocolate vs. vanilla example into a belief: “I think chocolate ice cream is brown because it is made out of mud.” This is not really an opinion – it’s a belief. It’s not a really important belief – I could care less whether a person really believes that, but I would definitely call it an uninformed (or ignorant) belief. Thus I would not respect this belief, but who am I not to tolerate it?

Now, what would be the problem with me informing this person that he does not have all of the facts and that chocolate ice cream is not made out of mud? Would it be disrespectful of his beliefs to give him some information that he lacked because he might see it as belittling his beliefs? Is it wrong to inform this person, just because his belief seems to be inconsequential to most? I don’t think so. That is only my opinion, though.

You see, a lot of the debate was going on because people are confusing facts with opinions and beliefs. Some people think that unsubstantiated opinions or beliefs are just as valid as scientific theories and facts. That is not the case. Scientific theories are rigorously tested using double blind experiments and are repeated by independent people. Scientific discoveries and theories can not be dismissed as mere opinions. Some people see this as putting science on a pedestal – but the fact is that scientists welcome challenges to their findings. If you can poke holes in the theory, then you are following the scientific method and improving our knowledge of the universe. You have just as much right as anyone else to publish your findings in a peer reviewed journal to refute scientific evidence. If your findings do not stand the face of scrutiny, then they become mere beliefs without factual basis.

This is why it would be ridiculous to respect the idea that the earth is flat – there is so much scientific evidence showing otherwise that a person who believes this is ignorant of the facts. Where I see ignorance, I will step in and try to educate – that is my good deed. I would expect the same from others if I err. In fact, this has happened and that is why I continue to grow in my knowledge of life and the universe.

Again, I think this comes down to definitions. “Opinions” was probably not the best word – I think beliefs would describe what we are talking about better.

rem, who hopes he’s done ruffling feathers today :)

124

I Think That I Chose My Parents.

by Englishman in

jw
friends

do you believe in reincarnation?.

i dont think i believe in it in the same way that most believers do, which is that we keep coming back in different fleshly bodies until we have achieved perfection.. i do, however, strongly suspect that we may well be spirit creatures who find it necessary to inhabit a fleshly body from time to time, and that this entails us having to leave behind most of our past memories.. i say most memories, because many people seem to have some vestigal recollections that don`t seem to fit in with earthly experiences.. i`m pretty sure that i chose my parents!

i have a recollection of being shown a young and kind couple through some form of astral telescope and choosing to become their son.

rem

Tina,

Ive never read anything by Wendy Kaminer. I'll have to check her out on Amazon. I just finished a big batch of books, so I'll be ordering another batch soon. Unfortunately my wish list is getting pretty huge now!

Thanks,

rem

PS: I just checked out the reviews in Amazon - her book looks great!

10

Tolerance

by Esmeralda in

jw
friends

after observing a couple of the current threads on this board, i thought that i'd throw this.

issue out there to see what people think.

i'm really curious.. has it been your experience that people who were jehovah's witnesses in the past tend to carry.

rem

When you take things personally, then you feel offended, and your reaction is to defend
your beliefs and create conflicts. You make something big out of something so little, because you have the need to be
right and make everybody else wrong. You also try hard to be right by giving them your own opinions.
In the same way, whatever you feel and do is just a projection of you own personal dream, a reflection
of your own agreements. What you say, what you do, and the opinions you have are according to the
agreements you have made- and these opinions have nothing to do with me.

I totally agree with this statement. The only problem I have is when people’s opinions are challenged by facts, all of a sudden they say that the fact–providers are being intolerant. I believe (and this is only my opinion) that Facts and Opinions are two different things. Facts are verifiable. Opinions are, well opinions. I don’t think we all have to respect opinions just for the sake of respecting them. I think we should definitely tolerate them, but I think respect should be reserved for *informed* opinions. Should you respect my opinion that all gay people are evil? No – because it’s not an informed opinion. I’d expect you to tolerate it, but I wouldn’t expect you to respect it.

Just my thoughts,

rem

25

Question for gay people

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

the question is about the term "tolerance" or "tolerating".. when someone says something along the lines of "i'm very tolerant of gay people" or "gay people should be tolerated", how do you feel?.

the reason i ask is this: doesn't the concept of tolerating something imply a background negative?

for instance, i can say "i tolerate my brother-in-law".

rem

I'm not sure why the word tolerance has gotten such a bad rap. This is from dictionary.com:

tol·er·ance (tlr-ns)
n.
The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
Leeway for variation from a standard.
The permissible deviation from a specified value of a structural dimension, often expressed as a percent

I think tolerance is great and I don't see why it should have a negative connotation. To me it means live and let live. I don't think we have to necessarily like everything in the world, but we can tolerate it. I think tolerance is a lower form of acceptance. Acceptance almost denotes agreement to me. I think acceptance is preferable, but I don't think it's realistic in the world we live in.

If the Israelies and the Palestinians could at least tolerate one another, I think that would be a big improvement - and a step in the direction of acceptance. Or another example: Some people oppose abortion, some tolerate it, and some accept it. The opposers are the clinic bombers and the picketers, the tolerant ones don't agree, but are fairly benign, and the acceptors, well, accept it as a free choice and to them the freedom of choice is the issue - not whether they agree with abortion.

I accept that not all people will agree what is or whether there is a "good" lifestyle. Or maybe I just tolerate them since I don't agree? I don't know - now I'm all confused! :)

rem

27

To All those on REINCARNATION thread

by RavynX in

jw
friends

risking the flames of the ignorant, let me suggest some reading for all you awakening humans who i have come to love:.

do a search on john edward, he has a site but i am not sure if it is johnedward.com or .org, and he is also on the sci-fi channel(cable tv in usa) and has a site on their page too.

i recommend getting one of his books and watching his show.

rem

If people don't want their ideas criticized, then they should email them privately. This is a public discussion board. I don't know about you, but discussions can get a bit boring if everyone agrees. I've never said people can't have their own opinions (are people even really reading what I'm saying??). I respect that people have their opinions - I was just offering some further research that can help people from being scammed. I guess I'm a bad person for that! :)

rem

124

I Think That I Chose My Parents.

by Englishman in

jw
friends

do you believe in reincarnation?.

i dont think i believe in it in the same way that most believers do, which is that we keep coming back in different fleshly bodies until we have achieved perfection.. i do, however, strongly suspect that we may well be spirit creatures who find it necessary to inhabit a fleshly body from time to time, and that this entails us having to leave behind most of our past memories.. i say most memories, because many people seem to have some vestigal recollections that don`t seem to fit in with earthly experiences.. i`m pretty sure that i chose my parents!

i have a recollection of being shown a young and kind couple through some form of astral telescope and choosing to become their son.

rem

Unanswered,

Was this a believers only thread? Geez - I think we are not communicating here. In the Kingdom Hall only one belief was allowed to the exclusion of all others. Is that what you want here? Only people who agree with you are allowed to post on this thread? That is the whole point to open discussion and free thought - we can talk about these things openly. You can't do that in a Kingdom Hall.

This is a public discussion board. Usually people have different points of view - obviously mine is different than some of yours. Why should I not be allowed to voice my views? Do you just want posts that continually reaffirm your beliefs without any challenges? What kind of world is that? That is the Kingdom Hall, my friend.

I don't remember hindering anyone else's posting priveleges. I was only pointing out my own opinions, known scientifc facts, and further references for others to look into. Is that not allowed? How, exactly is that like the Kingdom Hall?

Anyway, I know this message probably looks like I'm ticked off - I'm not. I'm having a lot of fun with this thread. I just think that people are throwing accusations around that are unwarranted. It doesn't really bother me, but I don't have much going on at work today, so I figured I'd chime in a bit here.

Thanks for lending your ear!

rem

27

To All those on REINCARNATION thread

by RavynX in

jw
friends

risking the flames of the ignorant, let me suggest some reading for all you awakening humans who i have come to love:.

do a search on john edward, he has a site but i am not sure if it is johnedward.com or .org, and he is also on the sci-fi channel(cable tv in usa) and has a site on their page too.

i recommend getting one of his books and watching his show.

rem

RHW,

Sometimes, Rem, a person DOES have all the available information, and the thing being investigated STILL doesn't fit into the slot. So, then, are we to deny its very existence? Or is it better (and a lot more interesting) to investigate another possibility? This is no way indicates that the non-scientific explanation is correct, but for the present it works.

I don’t remember ever commenting on anything that science does not have an answer for. I remember saying that there are a lot of things that science doesn’t know and that maybe someday those phenomena will be explained. I’m sure you have experienced things that science has not adequately explained. I never said that invalidates the experience. I do believe that the more we learn, the more we will see that the explanation will be prosaic – not magical. But this is only my opinion after looking back on years of scientific research and discovery.

Well, Rem, it IS a putdown. It indicates that the person discussing an idea that doesn't fit the scientific paradigm has never bothered to research anything. That generalization is simply not true, and it is derogatory.

Main Entry: ig·no·rant
Function: adjective
1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>

2 : UNAWARE, UNINFORMED
- ig·no·rant·ly adverb
- ig·no·rant·ness noun
synonyms IGNORANT, ILLITERATE, UNLETTERED, UNTUTORED, UNLEARNED mean not having knowledge. IGNORANT may imply a general condition or it may apply to lack of knowledge or awareness of a particular thing <an ignorant fool> <ignorant of nuclear physics>. ILLITERATE applies to either an absolute or a relative inability to read and write <much of the population is still illiterate>. UNLETTERED implies ignorance of the knowledge gained by reading <an allusion meaningless to the unlettered>. UNTUTORED may imply lack of schooling in the arts and ways of civilization <strange monuments built by an untutored people>. UNLEARNED suggests ignorance of advanced subjects <poetry not for academics but for the unlearned masses>.

I’m using the word in the sense of definition number 2. In this case we are all ignorant. I’m ignorant of nuclear physics and quantum mechanics. I’m ignorant of all of the pains of childbirth. It’s not a put down – I recognize that I’m ignorant in these areas. I was never trying to infer that anyone was ignorant in totality. Many on this thread are ignorant of the scientific studies that have been performed on this phenomenon. I was trying to help them be informed. You have done some research in this area – obviously that makes you informed and not ignorant. That means my comment did not apply to you.

It doesn’t matter to me what you ultimately believe – what matters to me is that people are informed. If you come to the opposite position than me – that’s fine. At least you’ve done the research. I’m trying to encourage others who have not done it and already formed their opinions to check out this stuff.

I’m sorry if my use of the word ignorant has offended some, but I stand by it’s usage. If it offends you to be labeled as ignorant, then become informed – poof – you are no longer ignorant. You don’t have to agree with me, but at least you are exposed to the facts.

rem

124

I Think That I Chose My Parents.

by Englishman in

jw
friends

do you believe in reincarnation?.

i dont think i believe in it in the same way that most believers do, which is that we keep coming back in different fleshly bodies until we have achieved perfection.. i do, however, strongly suspect that we may well be spirit creatures who find it necessary to inhabit a fleshly body from time to time, and that this entails us having to leave behind most of our past memories.. i say most memories, because many people seem to have some vestigal recollections that don`t seem to fit in with earthly experiences.. i`m pretty sure that i chose my parents!

i have a recollection of being shown a young and kind couple through some form of astral telescope and choosing to become their son.

rem

Esmeralda,

I am secure enough in my own ideals not to have to defend them to you, or anyone else.

I understand that and that is great. I think the benefit of discussing these things is not so much for ourselves, but for others who are lurking and want to learn something. I understand your health concerns as I've followed your posts for a long time now. Please understand that we are not (intentionally) trying to pick on anyone - we are just trying to have a discussion that will (hopefully) benefit someone. That someone doesn't neccessarily have to be the discussers, but I think we've all learned some things we hadn't known before this discussion started.

To me, it's a good thing to share knowledge and I'm pretty confident that you feel the same way. Thanks for providing your point of view - it is appreciated (even from a cold, sterile, logical type like me). :)

rem