Dan,
>>Patronizing is just a sign of immaturity and insecurity
Oh, now all of a sudden you are interested in having an intelligent, rational conversation using facts and evidence? Let's hear them, then. Otherwise my assertion that your god is a ham sandwich is just as valid as your empty assertions of his existence. If its good enough for you, it's good enough for me. The point is, you are the one who has been patronizing and immature and you just fell into your own trap.
Put up or shut up.
rem
Posts by rem
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101Atheist/Agnostics..you'r e in good company
by badwillie infamous people who were also atheists:.
simon bolivar, revolutionary of venezuela.
abraham lincoln, president.
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rem
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101
Atheist/Agnostics..you'r e in good company
by badwillie infamous people who were also atheists:.
simon bolivar, revolutionary of venezuela.
abraham lincoln, president.
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rem
Don't worry, DrWtsn. Who wants to worship his roast beef sandwich god anyway? I'm sure it's tasty, though.
rem -
101
Atheist/Agnostics..you'r e in good company
by badwillie infamous people who were also atheists:.
simon bolivar, revolutionary of venezuela.
abraham lincoln, president.
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rem
Dan,
>>I KNOW, just as well as you know you exist, that God exists. You can not believe all you want, but once you tell me I "can't know" you overstep the boundaries you have drawn around your mind. I kow He exists. I can't explain to you how any more than you can explain the taste of salt.
What you are saying implies that god is spam sandwich wrapped in bacon - how ridiculous! Who would want to worship such a god?
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he only feels disgust when its caught on tape...
by Country Girl ini hate this.
but god only knows what is going on with the folks caught in guantanemo bay.
this is so disgusting, abusive, and traitorous.
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rem
You know, I'm no fan of Bush, but I still don't think he's an unfeeling monster. I think anyone who tries to imply that he wasn't disturbed by the news "off the record" has the burden of proof.
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he only feels disgust when its caught on tape...
by Country Girl ini hate this.
but god only knows what is going on with the folks caught in guantanemo bay.
this is so disgusting, abusive, and traitorous.
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rem
>>he only feels disgust when its caught on tape...
I'm trying to figure out what you're implying here. Are you saying that Bush condones this behavior in private? Are you saying that Bush ordered the prisoners to be treated this way?
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101
Atheist/Agnostics..you'r e in good company
by badwillie infamous people who were also atheists:.
simon bolivar, revolutionary of venezuela.
abraham lincoln, president.
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rem
Dan,
I think it is appropriate for a skeptic* to say someone is "wrong" when they claim they *know* god exists. You can only know something when there is evidence, otherwise you just have a belief. The skeptic is just reminding the believer that they are using the wrong terminology (know vs. believe). The skeptic is not claiming he knows that there is no god.
Here is the difference:
Believer: I believe god exists
Atheist: That's fine, I don't
vs.
Believer: I know god exists
Atheist: No you don't, you just think you know
rem
* by the way, I think you are still confusing modern skeptics with they Pyhhronist philosophy. Modern skeptics do not claim that knowledge is not possible. -
101
Atheist/Agnostics..you'r e in good company
by badwillie infamous people who were also atheists:.
simon bolivar, revolutionary of venezuela.
abraham lincoln, president.
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rem
>>Sensory perception can be a subjective thing, so how can you tell me that I am mistaken when you have no idea what my perception is or how I came about it?
So is your point that god is subjective... he only exists in the minds of those who believe in him? I would heartily agree with that.
>> And just what are your feelings about God if you're not what I consider to be a traditional "atheist"?
There seems to be a misconception that atheists would never accept any evidence of the existence of gods. Many even believe that atheists in general make the claim that they know there is no god. This is the definition of a "strong atheist" and I don't personally know any, though I'm sure a few must exist.
Typically atheists are what most people would call agnostics, though this is not technically correct. Atheists such as myself do not believe in any gods - Thor, Vishnu, Brammah, Jehovah, Jesus, etc. but there of course is always the remote possibility that one or more exists. But this possibility seems about as remote as finding out that elves exist. There are certain definitions of god that can be explicitely denied to exist, but most others are just non-falsifiable.
I personally think it would be great if there were a higher being to take care of us and the thought of an afterlife is comforting, but to me it seems like wishful thinking.
>>Why is it that atheists always ask, "How do you know that my idea of green is the same as yours?" Is this in some handbook that they pass out?
Haha, I'm not sure - it was just the first thing that popped into my head. Maybe I did read it in a book somewhere? :)
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101
Atheist/Agnostics..you'r e in good company
by badwillie infamous people who were also atheists:.
simon bolivar, revolutionary of venezuela.
abraham lincoln, president.
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rem
Modern skeptics and atheists do not follow the teachings of Pyrrho. That extreme form of philisophical skepticism is self refuting. Modern skepticism is about evidence: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
As far as the salt example, you are confusing confirming the existence of something with confirming its perception. It is very easy, say, for me to show you table salt or prove that salt exists in a solution by introducing some type of chemical reaction, but the taste of salt is just a mental construct in your mind. As Aristotle would say, the taste of salt is not part of it's essense since it depends on perception.
How do I know that you see the color green the same way I do? I don't, but I can prove that "green" light exists because there are many materials that can pick up and respond to that wavelength of light.
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I'm getting nervous
by santacruzchick ini'm getting nervous and i shouldn't be.
here's the story.
on april 2 i went to a night club in sf with some friends.
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rem
Next time you are up here in SF we should hook up. I promise you don't know my girlfriend. :)
rem -
101
Atheist/Agnostics..you'r e in good company
by badwillie infamous people who were also atheists:.
simon bolivar, revolutionary of venezuela.
abraham lincoln, president.
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rem
dan,
>>OK. If chance didn't create life, then what is the force that has been acting in progressive opposition to entropy and has been designing an infinitely complex life system since the beginning of time?
Nothing works in opposition against entropy indefinitely. A baby growing into an adult is opposing entropy temporarily. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics works on closed systems and does not preclude the fact that small pockets of reduced entropy can exist within the system for a time. The sun provides the energy that chance and natural selection work with as a creative force. In time, this force and these algorithmic process will succumb to entropy.
>>Science doesn't like eternity. Our brains aren't intelligent enough to wrap themselves around that concept. Aristotle calls God the Unmoved Mover, but that begs the question, Who put Him there? Some say that God has always been God, just chillin' in yonder heaven from eternity to eternity. I don't like that idea, but that could just be the result of my imperfect reasoning. "Create" is an interesting word. The Hebrew word, "bara" means to organize, shape, or fashion. It in no way implies initial creation. We also know that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form. We were not created in the sense that God went, "Abra cadabra!" and we popped into existence. We were organized as spirits, and then given bodies. God went through the same process. The energy that quickens our bodies is just as eternal as the energy that quickens God's body. As far as who was the first? Don't care.
That's an interesting theory and it would be nice if it were true. How is your theory better than the theory that 13 gods created the universe and all of your memories last Tuesday? Both are non-falsifiable and there is no way to rank a non-falsifiable theory as more probable than another.
>>No I didn't create it, but I know a lot about how it was created.
You think you know. You have beliefs.
>>My evidence? I have yet to meet an "atheist" that wanted to believe in God. Some say they do, but deep down they really don't.
Most atheists want to believe in anything that has positive evidence. If there is good evidence for god, then they will "want" to believe. You are making a lot of assumptions without evidence - that is unless you can read minds.
>>Atheists believe many different things (just like Christians, the only difference is preference), but the most conspicuous ones are the ones who's litany is that God does not exist, and it is them that I address in my post.
Who are you addressing? This is a strawman caricature of what an Atheist is. As an atheist who knows many atheists I can honestly say I've never met anyone who makes this claim. To not believe in any gods is not the same as claiming that no gods exist.
>>If you really want God to exist I can show you how to get to know him.
I'm sure I've already tried what you would suggest, but feel free to enlighten us. Hindu's will probably disagree with you, as will Buddhists.
>>My God is the one true God. This I know.
This you believe. To know requires evidence. Again, Hindus and Buddhists would disagree with you. The thing with non-falsifiable assertions is you cannot prove yours is better than any other non-falsifiable assertion.
>>Then atheists wouldn't exist, everyone would be agnostic. Besides, whenever evidence is presented they immediatly dismiss it as nonesense. I have a 100% gauranteed method to help anyone get to know God personally, but you'll dismiss it without trying it. You'll have a reason or two, but you really just won't want to try. It's either not worth it, or you just don't want to know.
You assume a lot. It is true that with certain definitions of god, atheism would be impossible, hence disproving those definitions of god.
I would really like to get to know Vishnu personally as well, but lack of evidence tells me it's probably not worth my time trying to find him. I will put effort into it when evidence of his existence becomes clear. Should I waste my time trying to get to know thousands of fictional gods?
>>No, I'm not refering to Pascal's wager. I'm just saying no gambler in the world would take the chance odds over the creator odds.
Again you assume a lot. An atheist gambler would take that bet any day.
>>Now you're just patronizing. You've made no point whatsoever.
I think you've got the point. You have just as much evidence for your god's existence as there is for the existence of the Tooth Fairy... yet you want me to take your god seriously. You also got the point that proving a negative is impossible, so your demand was unreasonable.
>>I have asked many "atheists" to show me proof that God doesn't exist, and the only answer I ever get is, "There's no evidence that he does, man!" You have also failed to give any evidence, because you know none exists. My question is, Why is the default belief atheism?
I don't *know* no gods exist. I just don't *believe* any gods exist. Big difference, and this is the standard atheist position. You're caricature of atheism is unhelpful.
Why is the default belief atheism? Why is the default belief a-invisible-pink-unicornism? It is not rational to put belief in something that has no evidence for its existence.
rem