Crow are you coming outside for a smoke?
TheWonderofYou
JoinedPosts by TheWonderofYou
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UK 'blood' court case re:2yo
by darkspilver inhi orphancrow.
thought you might be interested in the following, brief, court case summary.
high court family division - 18 november 2016an nhs foundation hospital v mr and mrs t. http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/ewhc/fam/2016/2980.html.
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TheWonderofYou
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Are christians allowed to eat blood sausages?
by TheWonderofYou inthis text is an edited google translation by me of a german article by detlef löhde.
the article has also a lutheran aspect in it.
(the bible quotations are taken in english from the nabre, while in the german original the luther-bible is used).
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TheWonderofYou
The original Manuscript is obviously not free to obtain.
But I found a transcription made by Constantin Tischendorf: again with "suffocatis"!
Why does my OP than say that Jerome translated the bible without "suffocated"? I should have checked this before, I was gullible.
Either Jerome really used about 420 a manuscript with the writing "suffocated - PNIKTOU
or someone had to change Jerome's Vulate before it was about 540 in the Codex Amiatinus text recorded.
That sounds not reasonable at all and why should that have been necessary at all?
Codex Amiatinus by Conrad Tischendorf, page 210
This book is free https://archive.org/stream/codexamiatinus00jero#page/210/mode/2up
Tischendorf was the guy who discovered the oldest bible the Codex Sinaiticus in the Catherine Monastery at Mt. Sinai, was he not?
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Are christians allowed to eat blood sausages?
by TheWonderofYou inthis text is an edited google translation by me of a german article by detlef löhde.
the article has also a lutheran aspect in it.
(the bible quotations are taken in english from the nabre, while in the german original the luther-bible is used).
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TheWonderofYou
I found something curious in the Latin Vulgate,
while I checked if "suffocated" really was not in Jeromes latin translation as the quote in my OP reads and I found out that in the new Vulgate-versions "suffocated" doesn not lack at all. Here is an example.
https://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost04/Hieronymus/hie_vn05.html
Acts 15,20 http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drl&bk=51&ch=15&l=20#x
Or another digitalized full text of the vulgate https://www.ub.uni-freiburg.de/fileadmin/ub/referate/04/nt-vg.htm#05
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Now I am curious to find out if any older version of the Vulgate has the suffocated in it. There is a Codex, the Codex Amiatinus, which is seen as the earliest surviving MM of the nearly complete Latin Vulate translation. and is considered to be the most accurate copy of St. Jerome's text. So i will try to find the digitalized version. Please press your thumbs that I find it.
Codex Amiatinus
http://www.lametaeditore.com/4ita.htm
Unfortunately, the dedication page was altered, but the librarian Angelo Maria Bandini managed to reconstruct the history of the book enough to suggest that the author was Servandus, a follower of St. Benedict, and that the Codex Amiatinus was produced in the Monte Cassino Abbey around the 540s, thus making this copy the oldest among those of the Vulgata. German scholars, though, noted that it is remarkably similar to a text from the 9th century.
Sidenotes:
Did Jerome who lived mainly in Rome already know the people who produced the Codex Vaticanus, which is also from the same century - 4th- and which has Alexandrian text type. Codex Vaticanus was presumeably written in Ceasarea, Egypt...... Moment was not the Codex Vaticanus also produced for the Ceasar as gift? And was not the Vulgate also translated for the Ceasar as gift? ..No sorry for bishop Damasius. Again many questions.
As Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire in the first centuries after Christ, it became necessary to produce Latin versions of the Bible for those not able to understand the Greek of the New Testament or Septuagint.
The first translations were made by individual Christians for use within their own community. These are known as the Old Latin or Vetus Latina.
Towards the end of the fourth century, Pope Damasus asked the scholar Hieronymus (St. Jerome) to produce a revised version of the Gospels. Along with Jerome's translation of the Old Testament, an anonymous revision of the rest of the New Testament, and a handful of books from other sources, these later became the standard version, the Vulgate.
The Vulgate took many years to become established as the principal Latin Bible. In the meanwhile, the Old Latin versions continued to be used. Some of these translations are preserved in Bible manuscripts, in the writings of the Church Fathers and in early Christian liturgies. These texts are of great significance for the history of the early Church and the transmission of the Bible. Most of the Old Latin translations were made from Greek manuscripts which no longer exist. Although the Latin texts have undergone their own process of transmission, the original layer preserves a witness to the Bible, especially the New Testament, which would otherwise be lost to us. The language and history of these documents also provides information on the social background of early Christian communities and the spread of the Church.
http://www.vetuslatina.org/Damasus had instructed Jerome to be conservative in his revision of the Old Latin Gospels, and it is possible to see Jerome's obedience to this injunction in the preservation in the Vulgate of variant Latin vocabulary for the same Greek terms. Hence, "high priest" is rendered princeps sacerdotum in Vulgate Matthew; as summus sacerdos in Vulgate Mark; and as pontifex in Vulgate John. Comparison of Jerome's Gospel texts with those in Old Latin witnesses, suggests that his revision was substantially concerned with redacting the expanded phraseology characteristic of the Western text-type, in accordance with Alexandrian, or possibly early Byzantine, witnesses.
Given Jerome's conservative methods, and that manuscript evidence from outside Egypt at this early date is very rare; these Vulgate readings have considerable critical interest. More interesting still—because effectively untouched by Jerome —are the Vulgate books of the rest of the New Testament; which demonstrate rather more of supposed "Western" expansions, and otherwise transmit a very early Old Latin text. Most valuable of all from a text-critical perspective is the Vulgate text of the Apocalypse, a book where there is no clear majority text in the surviving Greek witnesses.
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Readers Digest - Early Text of the New Testament
by TheWonderofYou inhttps://books.google.at/books?id=ttnrzxcvggyc&pg=pa162&lpg=pa162&dq=p38+papyrus+michigan&source=bl&ots=iwzmjy4bmu&sig=lpsfa1rd31f4d-olxunuztjhuqg&hl=de&sa=x&ved=0ahukewiek-eh3cvqahvcfhokhzkgdagq6aeistak#v=onepage&q=p38%20papyrus%20michigan&f=false.
i recommend to read the introduction (free preview) at google preview containing stuff about.
- early text and original text p3- papyri and early text- classifying early papyri readings- text quality - earl text a free text?- transmission quality- public and privat copies- textal and scribal culture- book trade in the roman empire.
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TheWonderofYou
I am dealing with the question: If so many early witnesses are for a catalogue of the NT scriptures, why can anyone serioulsy argue or hold to the theory that at the council at Nicea at 325 A.D. Emporer Ceaser Constantine had decided which scriptures would become the New Testament with the evil ulterior motive to unify the church or to give power to the orthodoxy? Was the canon made to give the orthodoxy more power at all or for other reasons? Was the reason for the 325 council not that JW would get a full bible with all books in the last days for the worldwide work?
Did at 325 the church really begin or later after the synod of Cartage at 397 to maliciously destroy or exclude gnostic and apocryph books and did it even burn the books of gnostic apostates so that the so called 'Catolic church" would gain more and absolute power over all believers and the gnostic would be annihilated as apostates. Went the christian mobs around to burn the gnostic books? Did the orthodox christian then pry about and betray the gnostic christians?
But mainly: How could that the canonization be the reason for any pogroms or bookburning against gnostics if the canon already existed in the 2nd century?
Perhaps it was really only more an emperors trial to settle dogmatic conflicts about the Arianism/Trinity and not so much about selection of canon?
I think that the bishops wanted to give the emperor Ceaser the honour and so it looks for us like he decided, but in reality the canon already was spoken about in an "a process of careful investigation and deliberation" since longer and also in talks with the jewish what relates the hebrews.
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Readers Digest - Early Text of the New Testament
by TheWonderofYou inhttps://books.google.at/books?id=ttnrzxcvggyc&pg=pa162&lpg=pa162&dq=p38+papyrus+michigan&source=bl&ots=iwzmjy4bmu&sig=lpsfa1rd31f4d-olxunuztjhuqg&hl=de&sa=x&ved=0ahukewiek-eh3cvqahvcfhokhzkgdagq6aeistak#v=onepage&q=p38%20papyrus%20michigan&f=false.
i recommend to read the introduction (free preview) at google preview containing stuff about.
- early text and original text p3- papyri and early text- classifying early papyri readings- text quality - earl text a free text?- transmission quality- public and privat copies- textal and scribal culture- book trade in the roman empire.
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TheWonderofYou
http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-28/367-athanasius-defines-new-testament.html
The famous Codex Vaticanus in the Vatican Library, a Greek codex of the Old and New Testaments. It consists of the same books in the same order as in Athanasius’s festal letter—which is particularly noteworthy given the peculiar order: Gospels, Acts, Catholic Epistles (James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2, and 3 John, and Jude), Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews between 2 Thessalonians and 1 Timothy), and Revelation. The Codex Vaticanus probably was written in Rome, in 340, by Alexandrian scribes for Emperor Constans, during Athanasius’s seven-year exile in the city. It would thus predate the festal letter. Even though Athanasius was probably not far away when the Codex Vaticanus was written, one realizes that the establishment of the canon was not a sudden decision made unilaterally by a bishop in Alexandria, but a process of careful investigation and deliberation, documented in a codex of the Greek Bible and, twenty-seven years later, in a festal letter.
In this concern the fact is interesting that Codex Vaticanus is seen as that collection which has the best text quality of all of the earliest codices, which speaks for the job which Athanasisus had done. The text form of the codes is Alexandrian. Alexandria was a cosmopolitan city including Greeks, Jews, Egyptians, other native Africans and Romans. Its place in trade was dominant. It also had a long literary tradition and a special Platonic tradition which Eudorus represented. Its libraries were central in its learning. The patriarchy of Alexandria had after the Roman and Constantinople patriarchy the third rank.
Codex Vaticanus (B): According to Aland the by far best manuscript especially with the gospels. From Hebrew 9,14 on the original text is lost due to damage. Alexandrian texttype; 4th century
Early catalogues according the mentioned book from 1990 All Scriptures are Insprired.
Athanasisus' is included.
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CBC Canada - Jehovah's Witnesses: Internal judicial process 'catastrophic' for members alleging child sex abuse
by OrphanCrow injehovah's witnesses: internal judicial process 'catastrophic' for members alleging child sex abuse.
radio-canada's enquête investigates allegations that the closed religious movement fails to protect children.
cbc news posted: dec 01, 2016 5:00 am et.
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TheWonderofYou
Will it become the topic of conversation in the service this month? Time to work out new sample presentations,
"How can we reach the hearts of people by mentioning we are JWs and are not as evil as you think?"
"Improving our skills in the ministry if someone mentions abuse cases and remain in Gods love"
"We have a governing body and wait for him to clarify such matters. Meanwhile we succeed not discussing such matters which are only rumors. Its the press that is slandering us."
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Early Bible Translations
by TheWonderofYou inthis is a story about the bishop of hippo, a scholarly man.
augustine.
we saw him in the hollywood film.. was he a scholarly man?
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TheWonderofYou
This is a story about the bishop of Hippo, a scholarly man. Augustine. We saw him in the Hollywood film.
Was he a scholarly man? If yes, what made him puzzling about Jerome's bible translation of the book of Job into the Latin Language? And what can we learn about the quality, methods and faithfulness of bible translation at the early church?
Below read in the letter in which he asked Jerome to clear up the mistery.
Augustint to Jerome in 403 A.D.
In this letter I have further to say, that I have since heard that you have translated Job out of the original Hebrew, although in your own translation of the same prophet from the Greek tongue we had already a version of that book. In that earlier version you marked with asterisks the words found in the Hebrew but wanting in the Greek, and with obelisks the words found in the Greek but wanting in the Hebrew; and this was done with such astonishing exactness, that in some places we have every word distinguished by a separate asterisk, as a sign that these words are in the Hebrew, but not in the Greek.
Now, however, in this more recent version from the Hebrew, there is not the same scrupulous fidelity as to the words; and it perplexes any thoughtful reader to understand either what was the reason for marking the asterisks in the former version with so much care that they indicate the absence from the Greek version of even the smallest grammatical particles which have not been rendered from the Hebrew, or what is the reason for so much less care having been taken in this recent version from the Hebrew to secure that these same particles be found in their own places.
I would have put down here an extract or two in illustration of this criticism; but at present I have not access to the manuscript of the translation from the Hebrew. Since, however, your quick discernment anticipates and goes beyond not only what I have said, but also what I meant to say, you already understand, I think, enough to be able, by giving the reason for the plan which you have adopted, to explain what perplexes me.
For my part, I would much rather that you would furnish us with a translation of the Greek version of the canonical Scriptures known as the work of the Seventy translators. For if your translation begins to be more generally read in many churches, it will be a grievous thing that, in the reading of Scripture, differences must arise between the Latin Churches and the Greek Churches, especially seeing that the discrepancy is easily condemned in a Latin version by the production of the original in Greek, which is a language very widely known; whereas, if any one has been disturbed by the occurrence of something to which he was not accustomed in the translation taken from the Hebrew, and alleges that the new translation is wrong, it will be found difficult, if not impossible, to get at the Hebrew documents by which the version to which exception is taken may be defended.
And when they are obtained, who will submit, to have so many Latin and Greek authorities pronounced to be in the wrong? Besides all this, Jews, if consulted as to the meaning of the Hebrew text, may give a different opinion from yours: in which case it will seem as if your presence were indispensable, as being the only one who could refute their view; and it would be a miracle if one could be found capable of acting as arbiter between you and them.
A certain bishop, one of our brethren, having introduced in the church over which he presides the reading of your version, came upon a word in the book of the prophet Jonah, of which you have given a very different rendering from that which had been of old familiar to the senses and memory of all the worshippers, and had been chanted for so many generations in the church. Thereupon arose such a tumult in the congregation, especially among the Greeks, correcting what had been read, and denouncing the translation as false, that the bishop was compelled to ask the testimony of the Jewish residents (it was in the town of Oea).
These, whether from ignorance or from spite, answered that the words in the Hebrew manuscripts were correctly rendered in the Greek version, and in the Latin one taken from it. What further need I say? The man was compelled to correct your version in that passage as if it had been falsely translated, as he desired not to be left without a congregation -- a calamity which he narrowly escaped. From this case we also are led to think that you may be occasionally mistaken. You will also observe how great must have been the difficulty if this had occurred in those writings which cannot be explained by comparing the testimony of languages now in use.
At the same time, we are in no small measure thankful to God for the work in which you have translated the Gospels from the original Greek, because in almost every passage we have found nothing to object to, when we compared it with the Greek Scriptures. By this work, any disputant who supports an old false translation is either convinced or confuted with the utmost ease by the production and collation of manuscripts.
And if, as indeed very rarely happens, something be found to which exception may be taken, who would be so unreasonable as not to excuse it readily in a work so useful that it cannot be too highly praised? I wish you would have the kindness to open up to me what you think to be the reason of the frequent discrepancies between the text supported by the Hebrew codices and the Greek Septuagint version.
For the latter has no mean authority, seeing that it has obtained so wide circulation, and was the one which the apostles used, as is not only proved by looking to the text itself, but has also been, as I remember, affirmed by yourself. You would therefore confer upon us a much greater boon if you gave an exact Latin translation of the Greek Septuagint version: for the variations found in the different codices of the Latin text are intolerably numerous; and it is so justly open to suspicion as possibly different from what is to be found in the Greek, that one has no confidence in either quoting it or proving anything by its help.
I thought that this letter was to be a short one, but it has somehow been as pleasant to me to go on with it as if I were talking with you. I conclude with entreating you by the Lord kindly to send me a full reply, and thus give me, so far as is in your power, the pleasure of your presence.
Correspondence of Augustine and Jerome concerning the Latin Translation of the Bible
An interesting episode in the history of Bible translation was the exchange of letters between Augustine (Bishop of Hippo) and Jerome, concerning Jerome's new Latin translation of the Old Testament. Up to that time all Latin versions had been based upon the Greek version (called the translation of "the Seventy" or the Septuagint). But Augustine had learned that Jerome was now making a translation from the Hebrew, which differed in many places from the Septuagint. (Jerome had previously translated from the Septuagint, but after 390 he began to translate direct from the Hebrew. See the history of Jerome's work in the article by S. Angus on this site). Augustine calls upon Jerome to justify this departure from the customary text, tells of a disturbance which has arisen on this account, and urges him to reconsider. Jerome replies with characteristic vigor.
The English translations below are excerpted from the Letters of Augustine (No. 28, 71, 82) and the Letters of Jerome (No. 112) in A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Translated into English with Prolegomena and Explanatory Notes under the Editorial Supervision of Henry Wace and Philip Schaff. (Oxford: Parker; New York: Christian Literature Co., 1890-1900). -
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Readers Digest - Early Text of the New Testament
by TheWonderofYou inhttps://books.google.at/books?id=ttnrzxcvggyc&pg=pa162&lpg=pa162&dq=p38+papyrus+michigan&source=bl&ots=iwzmjy4bmu&sig=lpsfa1rd31f4d-olxunuztjhuqg&hl=de&sa=x&ved=0ahukewiek-eh3cvqahvcfhokhzkgdagq6aeistak#v=onepage&q=p38%20papyrus%20michigan&f=false.
i recommend to read the introduction (free preview) at google preview containing stuff about.
- early text and original text p3- papyri and early text- classifying early papyri readings- text quality - earl text a free text?- transmission quality- public and privat copies- textal and scribal culture- book trade in the roman empire.
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TheWonderofYou
Google preview.
The book is very interesting what regards the early text
I copied here the conclusion of Chapter "Modern critical editions".
Thats sounds interesting, and i have to say I cant yet understand the meaning of that.
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Readers Digest - Early Text of the New Testament
by TheWonderofYou inhttps://books.google.at/books?id=ttnrzxcvggyc&pg=pa162&lpg=pa162&dq=p38+papyrus+michigan&source=bl&ots=iwzmjy4bmu&sig=lpsfa1rd31f4d-olxunuztjhuqg&hl=de&sa=x&ved=0ahukewiek-eh3cvqahvcfhokhzkgdagq6aeistak#v=onepage&q=p38%20papyrus%20michigan&f=false.
i recommend to read the introduction (free preview) at google preview containing stuff about.
- early text and original text p3- papyri and early text- classifying early papyri readings- text quality - earl text a free text?- transmission quality- public and privat copies- textal and scribal culture- book trade in the roman empire.
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TheWonderofYou
All Scriptures are inspired - a JW bible explanation about the biblical canon
That is totally nonsense what they say about the catolic church and about the process of canonization. That is excactly everthing, the whole knowlegde a typical JW how we cam to the bible, what they know about canonization. This is no 0 % edcuation
And what about the myth that the canon was decided by Emporer Constantine already at the Nicene Council 325?
There are so many conspiracy theories.
The most strange thing is that.
So they belief that the holy spirit formulated the biblical canon, made a catalog of books, made a selection........men did play no role, their discussion played no role . .really?
P.S. "Then Why did the so called " Governing body in Jerusalem " not already in the 1st century decide about the biblical canon if it was inspired? why did God not already back then when there was no falling off yet canonize the bible and give herewith a stabile basis for the truth. Why did he allow "non-inspired" catalogers to make a bible.
And if the spirit had made the decicsion to make a catalog already in the 1st century then again the spirit had done it and withouth usage of men, they had been only necessary to serve as human pens to write down the will of the spirit.
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Warwick and Walkill
by Lynnie injust curious on what big differences there are between the two compounds?
i've seen that warwick is the world headquarters now so what is wallkill called?.
have cousins that just moved from walkill to warwick, apparently they have a deluxe apartment now.
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