Posts by TheWonderofYou

210

Morality Without Deity

by cofty in

one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

TheWonderofYou

Perhaps is Ayalas theory a help in this discussion.

Francisco Ayala, a professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of California, Irvine, has proposed a Darwin-inspired explanation of how human morality might have evolved in 2010.

Read more at:

https://phys.org/news/2010-05-professor-complex-evolution-human-morality.html#jCp

“Many biologists, including sociobiologists, argue that morality is a biologically determined trait,” Ayala told PhysOrg.com. “Most philosophers and theologians see morality as a product of cultural evolution and/or religious faith. I distinguish between the ‘capacity for ethics,’ which is biologically determined as a result of biological evolution; and the ‘moral codes’ or ethical norms, which are largely outcomes of cultural evolution, including religious beliefs.
Ayala further explains that the capacity for moral behavior is not adaptive in itself, but it is a consequence of a higher intellectual ability that is adaptive, being directly promoted through natural selection due to its ability to improve survival rates (such as by allowing us to construct tools, develop hunting strategies, etc.). Ayala identifies three necessary conditions for moral behavior that could have evolved with intelligence: the ability to anticipate the consequences of our actions, to evaluate such consequences, and to choose accordingly how to act. While overall intellectual capacities evolved gradually, he speculates that the three necessary conditions for moral behavior only came about after crossing an evolutionary threshold, as they require abilities such as the formation of abstract concepts. And only after humans possessed all three abilities could we possess a moral capacity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLgKC1snRLc

Here a German articel about the same subject

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/ursprung-des-guten-die-moral-als-nebenprodukt-der-evolution-a-692653.html

For me the best article about orgin of ethics is this

http://www.swr.de/swr2/programm/sendungen/wissen/ra1-ursprung-der-ethik/-/id=660374/did=15253686/nid=660374/174ogtb/index.html

with this comment about babies:

"From the beginning they have a moral sense and a moral knowledge about good and evil. But in many of them it has not yet become an inner personal need to evaluate the world morally urgently and act accordingly."

I attached a google translation from this article by M. Hubert.

44

Thoughts on African Americans and Slavery

by Simon in

let's start by saying that slavery is of course a terrible thing, one of the worst crimes imaginable, and that "slavery" rarely implies good treatment, anything noble or defensible.

nowadays, even god doesn't escape judgement from our enlightened views with passages about slavery in the bible usually glossed over because they are shameful.. but not all slavery was equal.. because of the media, movie industry, racial tensions in the us regularly shown on the news and our taught history, i think most people's knowledge and idea of slavery is that of the north atlantic slave trade where white people took africans to work in cotton fields.

this idea is probably also re-enforced because the largest group of descendents of slaves we see today are african americans (usually in the us or places they subsequently migrated to).. but it's incomplete.. it's only when you look into it more that you discover that there was much more to the slave trade than that, otherwise it would have been just called "the slave trade" and not "the north atlantic slave trade".. some 12.5 million slaves were taken from africa to the us with just under 11 million surviving the trip so it obviously took a terrible toll immediately, even before any maltreatment once they landed in the americas where conditions and treatment were truly awful.

TheWonderofYou

What makes me puzzling about slavery

The EXODUS served as inspiration for many that lived in SLAVERY or were persecuted to fight for freedom and civil rights. Indeed the legend or founding myth of Israel - the exodus - bears the message that Israelites were DELIVERED FROM SLAVERY by God ... therefore they belong to God and there is a covenant,

Freedom from slavery thats the legendary myth of Israel

How could a people that hated slavery and was supposedly freed of SLAVERY - as in the hollywood films is shown very impressingly - after the exodus than support slavery further slavery in the law and not forbid it?

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. Exodus
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." -- Leviticus 25:44-45

Perhaps Moses was in reality the slave master in Egypt wand wanted to found a slave nation for himself,. because he was hated in Egypt?

20

Paul did not belittle women

by Doug Mason in

i note the recent post that quoted 1 timothy 2:11-12 and colossians 1:23 which place women at a level that is lower to men.

the poster accused paul of this mysoginy, but that is not correct.. 1 timothy, 2 timothy, titus, colossians, ephesians and hebrews were written after paul's death.. paul was not a mysoginist; he made full use of women in leadership roles.

he wrote that in god's sight there is neither male nor female, for all are one in god's sight.. doug.

TheWonderofYou

Already before the Apostel Paul a guy named Jesus did not change the social order, Paul and Jesus were brave Jews. No special policy against slavery and none against male dominance. The social world order was not subject of them.

Christian-dom was more about bearing up the burdens and evils of the world and evil conditions than about changing it.

Christian believe that change will come by ITSELF over the time through enduring the evil by humble and meek submissiveness of true followers who believe in peace.

44

Thoughts on African Americans and Slavery

by Simon in

let's start by saying that slavery is of course a terrible thing, one of the worst crimes imaginable, and that "slavery" rarely implies good treatment, anything noble or defensible.

nowadays, even god doesn't escape judgement from our enlightened views with passages about slavery in the bible usually glossed over because they are shameful.. but not all slavery was equal.. because of the media, movie industry, racial tensions in the us regularly shown on the news and our taught history, i think most people's knowledge and idea of slavery is that of the north atlantic slave trade where white people took africans to work in cotton fields.

this idea is probably also re-enforced because the largest group of descendents of slaves we see today are african americans (usually in the us or places they subsequently migrated to).. but it's incomplete.. it's only when you look into it more that you discover that there was much more to the slave trade than that, otherwise it would have been just called "the slave trade" and not "the north atlantic slave trade".. some 12.5 million slaves were taken from africa to the us with just under 11 million surviving the trip so it obviously took a terrible toll immediately, even before any maltreatment once they landed in the americas where conditions and treatment were truly awful.

TheWonderofYou

"Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom his master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their allowance of food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives." -- Matthew 24:45-46.

Christianity and Slavery

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Religion/slavery.htm

8

Jesus is Lord...as in Jehovah god...in Reference NWT

by NikL in

i wish i could say i found this but i saw it in a vid from watchtower examination.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk7ertncbsk.

in it he points out that in the reference bible used by jws they admit that jesus and jehovah are the same thing.. so i looked it up online on jw.org.

yep it's there.. 1 peter 3:15. but sanctify the christ as lord* in your hearts,+ always ready to make a defense+ before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you, but doing so together with a mild temper+ and deep respect.*.

TheWonderofYou

"second it seems more likely in context that Peter did not want to stress that Christ is Lord but that believers should set him apart and treat him as Lord."

"Lord Jesus Christ" "Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"

My comment: Christian were persecuted because of Jesus Christ and not because of using or pronouncing the tetragram as "Jehova".

"Kyrios" was the word used for God in the greek world, which also replaced the jewish tetragram. Christian authors did not argue, that Christian bible writers should return to the Tetragram (Jewish name of god) and preach the tetragram worldwide as gospel, but they used Kyrios, Lord to replace the old jewish tetragram and preached Jesus as Lord.

This was one of the reasons why Christians treated always Jesus as Lord in their hearts.

Does the text argue Deity of Christ?

....

From: The Gospel of Christ by Thomas Stegall page 691.

https://books.google.at/books?id=uj9H4Jab9DMC&pg=PA691&dq=kyrios+yhwh+1+peter+3+15&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEltiW983RAhWCQBoKHYlZDE8Q6AEIdDAJ#v=onepage&q=kyrios%20yhwh%201%20peter%203%2015&f=false

44

Thoughts on African Americans and Slavery

by Simon in

let's start by saying that slavery is of course a terrible thing, one of the worst crimes imaginable, and that "slavery" rarely implies good treatment, anything noble or defensible.

nowadays, even god doesn't escape judgement from our enlightened views with passages about slavery in the bible usually glossed over because they are shameful.. but not all slavery was equal.. because of the media, movie industry, racial tensions in the us regularly shown on the news and our taught history, i think most people's knowledge and idea of slavery is that of the north atlantic slave trade where white people took africans to work in cotton fields.

this idea is probably also re-enforced because the largest group of descendents of slaves we see today are african americans (usually in the us or places they subsequently migrated to).. but it's incomplete.. it's only when you look into it more that you discover that there was much more to the slave trade than that, otherwise it would have been just called "the slave trade" and not "the north atlantic slave trade".. some 12.5 million slaves were taken from africa to the us with just under 11 million surviving the trip so it obviously took a terrible toll immediately, even before any maltreatment once they landed in the americas where conditions and treatment were truly awful.

TheWonderofYou

The trans-Atlantic trade in "blacks" was commercial, but for Arabs, memories of the Crusades and fury over expulsion from Spain in 1492 seem to have fueled an almost war-like Christian stealing campaign. For example; when pirates sacked Vieste in southern Italy in 1554, they took an astonishing 6,000 captives. Algerians took 7,000 slaves in the Bay of Naples in 1544, in a raid that drove the price of slaves so low it was said you could "swap a Christian for an onion."

Spain also suffered attacks. After a raid on Granada in 1566 netted 4,000 men, women, and children, it was said to be "raining Christians in Algiers". For every large-scale raid of this kind there would have been dozens of smaller ones. When Muslim corsairs came ashore, they made a point of desecrating churches, stealing church bells --- not just because the metal was valuable but also to silence the distinctive voice of Christianity. During frequent smaller raids, only a few ships would operate by stealth in the middle of the night so to catch people "in their beds". This practice gave rise to the modern-day Sicilian expression, pigliato dai turchi, or "taken by the Turks"... Meaning to be caught by surprise while asleep or distracted.

Some Arab pirates were formidable skilled blue-water sailors, and terrorized Christians up to 1000 miles away. During one account, a raid in the early 1600s occurred all the way to Iceland, netting nearly 400 captives. Throughout the 17th century, Arab pirates operated freely in British waters, even sailing up the Thames estuary to pick off prizes and raid coastal towns. By the mid-1600s the British were running a brisk trans-Atlantic trade in "blacks", but many British crewmen themselves became the property of Arab raiders.

Source: Excerpt from Amazon Reader's rescension.
https://www.amazon.de/Christian-Slaves-Muslim-Masters-Mediterranean/dp/1403945519
Concurrently with African enslavement in the Americas, a flourishing slave trade existed from 1500 to 1800 of white Christian Europeans by the Muslims of North Africa's Barbary Coast. In his book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters, Ohio State history professor Robert Davis takes a close look at this rarely discussed aspect of modern history.
Originating from the life of the Prophet Mohammed, slavery is deeply embedded in Islamic law and tradition. Muslims are required to follow the teachings of Mohammed, who was a slave owner and trader. Further, a large part of the sharia – in the Sunna of Mohammed and the Koran – is dedicated to the practice of slavery. Muslim caliphs typically had harems of hundreds of slave girls captured from Christian, Hindu, and African lands. Slavery is still practiced today in several Muslim countries and glorified by present-day jihadist groups.
However, slavery is an ancient practice dating from ancient Egypt, Greece, and Rome, as well as early Amer-Indian empires in Mexico and Central America. It was also well established and ideologically sanctioned in the Muslim world from the days of Mohammed.

Source:
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/09/christian_slaves_muslim_masters.html#ixzz4W38zNDSa
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

This is the forgotten story of the million white Europeans, snatched from their homes and taken in chains to the great slave markets of North Africa to be sold to the highest bidder. Ignored by their own governments, and forced to endure the harshest of conditions, very few lived to tell the tale. Using the firsthand testimony of a Cornish cabin boy named Thomas Pellow, Giles Milton vividly reconstructs a disturbing, little known chapter of history. Pellow was bought by the tyrannical sultan of Morocco who was constructing an imperial pleasure palace of enormous scale and grandeur, built entirely by Christian slave labour. As his personal slave, he would witness first-hand the barbaric splendour of the imperial court, as well as experience the daily terror of a cruel regime. Gripping, immaculately researched, and brilliantly realised, WHITE GOLD reveals an explosive chapter of popular history, told with all the pace and verve of one of our finest historians.

Hidden muslim slave trade in Africa - the hidden genocide

Here are well written BBC-articles

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/slavery_1.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/africa_article_01.shtml

24

"Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."

by pale.emperor in

now that im not longer a jw this verse puzzles me.

being born and raised a witness, this verse confirmed to me that jesus was talking about a paradise on earth.

but now that everything the witnesses taught is 99.99% incorrect can somone explain what he was getting at here?

TheWonderofYou

Salam Fayyad - Prime minister of the Palestinian Authority from 2007 - 2013 met in 2009 with a little german delegation of evangelical bishops in Ramallah. Asked what was for him the way to peace he mentioned the important role of the little group of christians in muslim countries.

The main contribution of christians he said, would be the constant recollection of non-violence in the solution of the imminent conflicts. As a muslim, he understood the political ethics of Christians so that non-violence has a very high place in resolving conflicts.

He as a Muslim was impressed to find in the teaching of Jesus that Jesus follows his way very clearly but he had always remained nonviolent.

And he recollected a saying of Jesus about non-violence to achieve political goals. Salaam Fayyad had evidently in mind the beatitude of Jesus: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth, the land."

The article shows also that "meek" in the greek sense meant not apathy but the a courage to trust in god and remain non-violent, non-ruthless. Its about remaining meek in the face of violence. If you look at the situation from a "meek" perspective you would even see that this beatitute certainly is already fulfillilng now and not only in the utopic future.

In german the word for "meekness" is "Sanftmut", sanft + mut, meek+mettle not only gentle+temper.

The biblical word for meekness means also a mettle in non-violence, this is exactly a absolut diametrical statement in which Jesus wants us to have trust, that meekness, nonviolence will lead to make people possesors of the land, that is how gods kingdom works he says, in which would govern other norms, namely love and those who could see it would understand it.

And again contrary to the JW-position here are not meant the "landlords" or "princes" or fake "144000 kings" that will govern as "rulers" over the land but really meek ones. Exactly what JW await, a governmental power for the meek ones once in high position, is that what Jesus condemns here and otherwhere, when he says that there would be no "positions" in the kingdom anymore.

I think so, because Jesus and the gospelwriter are referring also to the Psalmist who reads: The poor will inherit the earth. - Here is again this diametrical saying, that seems also total irrealistic and utopical ...the poor will never inherit or possess something, You see that this is a word of hope, an encouragment to look with other perspective unto the facts. And the POOR dont have any positions in the world too. It is not meant that the poor really will possess or overtake everything. It is only a saying. Any possession dont play a role in gods kingdom

Obvioulsy Jesus spoke of an other perspective to solve the problems of the world and he used a known Psalm to express this.

http://www.kirche-mv.de/fileadmin/PEK-Downloadtexte/091108_KanzeltauschHeide.pdf

24

"Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."

by pale.emperor in

now that im not longer a jw this verse puzzles me.

being born and raised a witness, this verse confirmed to me that jesus was talking about a paradise on earth.

but now that everything the witnesses taught is 99.99% incorrect can somone explain what he was getting at here?

TheWonderofYou

I agree that Jesus is speaking much about "earthly" blessings. This is not the same as if Jesus was talking about a paradise earth full of "immortal" human bodies though or sadly, it is simple a blessing like if you honour your parents you will inherit the earth.

BUT Jesus certainly did not only speak of a "heavenly" hope too. All his parables speak of an strongly "earthly" blessings for men on earth, it showes that Jesus' understanding of the kingdom of god had an earthyl note. Perhaps expressed with the words of the swiss reformed theologian Leonhard Ragaz and the catolic philospher and priest Urs Eigenmann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonhard_Ragaz#

Jesus understanding of "EARTH"ly blessing might have been: "the kingdom of God, the Righteousness for the EARTH" (book title by Urs Eigenmann). If you think of all the earthly blessings that are in the parables and the sermon of the mountain that is clear. The Jewish hope was primarily a blessing for MEN on Earth and secondly the eternal completion in community with god.

He testified as a holistic liberation from material need and disease, from political oppression and social exclusion, as well as from religious ostracism and demons. Despite the central concern of Jesus, the Kingdom of God in the Great Churches and their school-theologies did not play a role for centuries, or it was privatized, spiritualized and misrepresented.
On the other hand, the central position of the Kingdom of God is emphasized in the message of Jesus, and is confirmed by his biblically attested content and complex structure. The Kingdom of God can be understood as a universal-solidarity community of people, in which all those who are in need of material, social and cultural-religious needs recognize themselves.
Against this background, the question of God is posed in the horizon of the Kingdom of God, the criteria for a kingdom of god compatibility assessment of the church and society are developed as well as the dimensions of a kingdom-God-spirituality and mysticism. This is in the knowledge that all efforts in the sense of the kingdom of God are to be seen in the horizon of his fulfillment promised as the gift of God.

14

Reaching the most distant parts - Geoffrey Jackson praising Bible translators and missionaries as "faithful ones" or even "anointed ones"

by TheWonderofYou in

after we heard some time ago that before the time of russel there was no "faitful slave" or no anointed ones who formed a faitful slave class, now we learn that we dont know if before russel there were not "faitful ones" or "anointed".

indeed jackson says that we know the bible teaches that throughout the history there would be a large number of "sons of the kingdom" ..or anointed ones.. beginning from this month in several projects including a film about christian bible translators who gave an example of "faithfulness" and "discretness" in translating the bible, the christian bibletranslators and missionionaries who used "jehovah" by the way are receiving ultimate praise of the governing body, in the first place at the moment is shown the video about tyndale, wo so is very much supposedly a "faithful one" and perhaps even "anointed" because he loved the bible.. jackson says that those early missionaries of the christendom already "preached the message" before russell.

january broadcast.

TheWonderofYou

Tyndale introducted with his translation also some new terms into the english language:

Jehovah, Passover, scapegoat , atonement (at+one+ment), the powers that be, my brothers keeper, the salt of the earth and " a law unto themselves".

Until then these words were unknown in english.

-----

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

Controversy over new words and phrases[edit]

The hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church did not approve of some of the words and phrases introduced by Tyndale, such as "overseer", where it would have been understood as "bishop", "elder" for "priest", and "love" rather than "charity". Tyndale, citing Erasmus, contended that the Greek New Testament did not support the traditional Roman Catholic readings. More controversially, Tyndale translated the Greek "ekklesia", (literally "called out ones"[46]) as "congregation" rather than "church"

Contention from Roman Catholics came not only from real or perceived errors in translation but also a fear of the erosion of their social power if Christians could read the Bible in their own language. "The Pope's dogma is bloody", Tyndale wrote in The Obedience of a Christian Man.[48] Thomas More (since 1935 in the Roman Catholic Church, Saint Thomas More) commented that searching for errors in the Tyndale Bible was similar to searching for water in the sea, and charged Tyndale's translation of The Obedience of a Christian Man with having about a thousand falsely translated errors. Bishop Tunstall of London declared that there were upwards of 2,000 errors in Tyndale's Bible, having already in 1523 denied Tyndale the permission required under the Constitutions of Oxford (1409), which were still in force, to translate the Bible into English.

In response to allegations of inaccuracies in his translation in the New Testament, Tyndale in the Prologue to his 1525 translation wrote that he never intentionally altered or misrepresented any of the Bible, but that he had sought to "interpret the sense of the scripture and the meaning of the spirit."[47]

____

An interesting notion: Tyndales had the impression that English was seen by the church as a "rude" language and not worthy for a translation of the bible at all (found that in: Advocacy of an English-language Bible

"Tyndale asks if (Saint) Jerome could translate scripture into his own language, why not the English people? Tyndale says the church authorities feel that English is “rude” (19), i.e., undeveloped."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Obedience_of_a_Christian_Man

14

Reaching the most distant parts - Geoffrey Jackson praising Bible translators and missionaries as "faithful ones" or even "anointed ones"

by TheWonderofYou in

after we heard some time ago that before the time of russel there was no "faitful slave" or no anointed ones who formed a faitful slave class, now we learn that we dont know if before russel there were not "faitful ones" or "anointed".

indeed jackson says that we know the bible teaches that throughout the history there would be a large number of "sons of the kingdom" ..or anointed ones.. beginning from this month in several projects including a film about christian bible translators who gave an example of "faithfulness" and "discretness" in translating the bible, the christian bibletranslators and missionionaries who used "jehovah" by the way are receiving ultimate praise of the governing body, in the first place at the moment is shown the video about tyndale, wo so is very much supposedly a "faithful one" and perhaps even "anointed" because he loved the bible.. jackson says that those early missionaries of the christendom already "preached the message" before russell.

january broadcast.

TheWonderofYou

Indeed the TYNDALE Bible is presented in the video with emotional background music as "THE WITNESS turned into paper" that Jehovah overviews his bible and doesnt allow that someone does not translate it.

Tyndales Bible is portrayed as the "THE Papery witness" for jehovahs effort to spread the message.

Source: JW broadcast January 2017