Posts by pacloc

156

When we die...

by Finallyfree12 in

jw
friends

do you beleive our spirit lives on in other dimensions or are we really just dead?

?.

pacloc

Eh? Perhaps the most ill-informed statement in the history of the internet.

There should be a prize.

In the history of the internet? So you do claim to have a standard of justice? Who's standard do you use? I guess you did not read in context that I was using the word "standard" as an unchangable, predetermined view of justice. That is why I said otherwise you create your own version. Once again angry athiests jumping to conclusions and misrepresenting what was said. Looks good for you guys.

As an ethical and logical problem that is for theists to answer. As a human problem it will only be solved by human effort.

I won a prize for what I said and you can say this?? Human effort will cure the world of disease and death? Sure thing. And you call theists crazy, you really believe humans will figure out how to stop death, let's start with cancer and down syndrome.

And the Church has answers for it, if you only care to listen. That is what I've been trying to say, with the judgment and resurrection, where justice will be done. You won't find answers in the JDub religion, because they have turned from the original teachings and have created their own version that contradicts logic and reason. I don't know how much you know about what the Church teaches on these matters, but I hope you are not mixing Jdub/protestant belief into what I am speaking about, that would just confuse the matter more.

156

When we die...

by Finallyfree12 in

jw
friends

do you beleive our spirit lives on in other dimensions or are we really just dead?

?.

pacloc

Again, wrong. I am not upset with you. However, the people YOU said you were addressing is a group I am part of. Therefore, you were addressing me. I get that it is uncomfortable for you to encounter the subject of your derision, but no one made you write that. You addressed me, so now explain how you know me well enough to declare for me what I believe.

You belong to a group now? A group of non belief? How do you know you share any of the same non belief as others in your so called group? You some how know that I am uncomfortable?

You simulaneously claim to know what spirit is and then pretend you just didn't claim to know what it is. You are saying nothing but meaninless circular platitudes. If you know, it's a simple question. What is spirit made of?

You are still in your Jdub mindset of logic. Very sad to see a human being stoop so low as to misrepresent somone else. "Oh you said you know what spirit is and then pretend to say you don't know what it is, your saying meningless circles." If you were not say angry with me and were trying to learn something, you would see that I never claimed to know everything about angels and demons except what I've learned through scripture and the Church. Does that mean I know nothing about them? Does that mean I know everything about them? Only a fool would reason the way you have, that either you know everything or nothing about a topic. I am sure you know everything about all things you ever speak of. Now as far as spirit goes, I do claim to know more about it than has been presented by other posters. I have said over and over and you do not want to hear it because your childish mind wants to know "what it's made of" in physical terms. I have told you that the Spirit is God, who is love, who is truth, who is holy. He does not exist in space or time, so you with your little mind will never know what God is made of.

You haven't said anything except to deny what you said. Try again. What is spirit made of?

I've denied something? Okay.

That's easy - Shit happens.

No god's, spirits, angels or demons. No resurrection or afterlife.

This life is amazing. It is not a rehearsal, it's the only one you or I will ever have.

Life's amazing? I could agree with that only to a certain extent because I've been blessed to live in a relatively nice place and time. But what about the children that are born suffering and die with illnesses? Or children born to starve to death? Or children not allowed to be born? As someone that does not believe in God, therefore does not believe in a standard of justice, do you believe that those kids are just as meaningful as trees and insects, and whatever happens by chance to them is just what it is? I know that everyone that turns from God, still creates their version of justice, but does it really mean anything, since it is completely up to you to create your own version?

I would hope that if it were up to you, people would not suffer unjustly. So how can we feel that way and the opposite happen? Random chance that things just developed the way they did with unjust suffering? Says who? So what do those suffering children get out of life? No happiness here or there. Too bad for them. I do agree that this life is not a rehearsal and that it is the only one you will ever have, since I believe in immortality. This is no time to treat life lightly.

God bless guys.

156

When we die...

by Finallyfree12 in

jw
friends

do you beleive our spirit lives on in other dimensions or are we really just dead?

?.

pacloc

I wasn't really talking to anyone in particular with my second statement, I definitely was not trying to say what I thought you believed in.

But you were. I don't believe in God and you presumed to attempt to tell me what I beleived in and worshipped. I was exactly the target of that. Why do you presume you have the knowledge and experience to tell me what I worship, think or believe?

You are getting upset at me for telling you what you believe, yet you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of by saying that for a fact I was refering to you with my statement. I was not refering to you, I did not even know you did not believe in God. But to address your claims, I do in fact believe you attribute some part of creation as your God, if you claim not to believe in the God of Abraham. Even if it is yourself.

Just trying to defend God's Justice against that of pure chance and despair.

Mistakenly making claims about what others believe when there is absolutely no way you could know that is not a good start. Feel free to start a thread on it!

But you do know absolutely what I don't know? Why are you absolutely right about that? Your reasoning is flawed.

As for your questions about spirits, no angels and demons are creatures like us humans in the sense that they have free will and have been given Divine Spirit.

But the Bible claims they are spirits. Are you claiming that is just metaphorical? Are they invisible flesh? What are they made of? I ask this because angels, demons, God, Jesus, etc., are traditionally called spirits, non-flesh. If spirit is metaphorical, then what ARE they made of? Also, if the Holy spirit IS spirit, you STILL have yet to tell me what it's made of.

You left out the rest of my statement that covered your question. They are God's creations, and like us have free will. They do not have a physical body so they are not made up of anything that we could describe in physical terms. I don't claim to know much about the angels other than what is revealed in scripture and through Church Tradition. We simply don't know much other than they live in another realm that doesn't have matter, as matter is just another creation of God's. I think it is hard for people to imagine how God does not exist in space or time, so creations of his don't really need to make sense to us in order for them to exist. I am simply explaining that the Spirit in creation is actually God.

You aren't answering the question, you're just answering it with another mystery.

I think I am answering the question, but you don't understand the ideas.

You don't want to fall into the mistake of calling the Holy Spirit electricity like the JWs, that is why we call it a person of the Trinity.

Your explanation is no better. They are like us, but not, it's emotions and intent except when it's not. You aren't saying, you're just talking in circles without telling what any of these things are.

Circles are at least complete, you have offered nothing to the matter. I know for a fact that the JWs view of the Holy Spirit is wrong because it fails in all ways, both scientifically (since it cannot be proven through experiment) and scripturely/theologically. You need to read up on the subject if you think that the traditional views are at the same level of the JWs blasphemies. You should reread all that I have said a few times, and read the Bible. You will see that in scripture and today in everyday language we speak of the spirit of things in a different way than when we talk about the Spirit of God.

156

When we die...

by Finallyfree12 in

jw
friends

do you beleive our spirit lives on in other dimensions or are we really just dead?

?.

pacloc

Viviane

I wasn't really talking to anyone in particular with my second statement, I definitely was not trying to say what I thought you believed in. Just trying to defend God's Justice against that of pure chance and despair.

As for your questions about spirits, no angels and demons are creatures like us humans in the sense that they have free will and have been given Divine Spirit. They are often called spirits because of their being invisible to us like the wind(wind and spirit is the same word in ancient language). With free will, we can choose not to do good, which goes against the Spirit. So technically, anything that exists only exists because of God's Spirit in it. This spirit is usally refered to as Love, specifically the Love between the Father and The Son. So yes since God is one, God is Spirit, but for sake of explaining it in our human minds that do not fully grasp God, we call it the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity. You don't want to fall into the mistake of calling the Holy Spirit electricity like the JWs, that is why we call it a person of the Trinity.

156

When we die...

by Finallyfree12 in

jw
friends

do you beleive our spirit lives on in other dimensions or are we really just dead?

?.

pacloc

Spirit is the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity. That is why the Church teaches that the Spirit cannot be annihilated (as JWs teach it can). Spirit is also used metaphorically to mean the motives and passions of someone. That is why you can say that there are evil spirits, because they misuse the gift of the Holy Spirit which is God. So an evil spirit is only evil in the sense that they reject/hate God. Kind of how heat works, there is no such thing as cold, it really is only lack of heat. That is most likely why God compares himself to fire.

And to reject the resurrection is to lie to yourself. God has created the world in a way that is constantly giving signs of "resurrection." If you really do not believe in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, then you end up worshipping another God whether you admit it or not, that of chance. Almighty Chance is your god. How else do you explain the wicked that are rewarded for their evil and the righteous that are punished for their good? Almighty Chance allowed for that. Or you could believe in the judgment and resurrection that has been taught for thousands of years. People these days don't realize how arrogant we are by throwing away or ancestor's beliefs, we know so much more now.

52

What other religious groups are ...

by EdenOne in

b) teach conditional salvation based primarily on faith in christ?.

c) refuse eternal torment in a literal fiery hell?.

d) refuse the immortality of the soul?.

pacloc

I have the same experience of being born and baptized Catholic, then raised a JW since about age 5 until about 2 years ago at age 28. I looked through all the non trinitarian church's, mainly Christadelphians, and Church of God types. I concluded there was no organized religion, but it was to be kept alive in small comunities. Eventually I had the common sense to research what has been taught for the 2,000 years since Christ, and realized I needed to go back to my Catholic faith. It has been beautiful ever since. My wife and I received our other sacraments last June. The Catholic faith is nothing that JW say it is and is nothing that most relatives and friends that I thought represented the faith demonstrated to me. There are answers to the most basic questions raised against the Church that date back 1700 years or more.

7

Why do humans suffer

by StephaneLaliberte in

while talking with my wife, it occurred to me that the jws idea of why humans suffer doesnt make sense.

the idea is that humans suffer so as to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they cannot rule themselves.. now, the bible states that satan is the ruler of this world.

so just how letting time pass by supposed to answer the question about the humans ability to govern themselves when they dont govern themselves?

pacloc

This was the topic that eventually led me out of the Watchtower. They have the worst reasoning on the purpose of suffering.

32

Pope Francis's view on ABORTION can end all discussion on abortion!

by abiather in

defence of unborn life is closely linked to the defence of each and every other human right.

it involves the conviction that a human being is always sacred and inviolable, in any situation and at every stage of development.

human beings are ends in themselves and never a means of resolving other problems.

pacloc

32

Pope Francis's view on ABORTION can end all discussion on abortion!

by abiather in

defence of unborn life is closely linked to the defence of each and every other human right.

it involves the conviction that a human being is always sacred and inviolable, in any situation and at every stage of development.

human beings are ends in themselves and never a means of resolving other problems.

pacloc

jws, it is very sad to hear such ignorance. Please read up on history first of all.

Secondly, would you like to be judged based on your father, grandfather, great grandfather? Not everone in your family was a saint I am sure. Unlike JW the Catholic Church does not call itself God's mouthpiece, but rather the priesthood of the apostles has been passed down, including the primacy of St. Peter the prince of the apostles. Pope Francis is nothing other than the chief servant in making important decisions of how Christians should live in the society of our time. The dogmas of the Church have not changed in the Church's 2000 year long history. There definitely were things that the Church is not proud of, and have actually admitted fault and have repented, but the two topics you mentioned had at least some merit in trying to keep the Church pure and free. Pope Francis has never killed anyone, but a lot of the people on this website have, so I wouldn't go around insulting a man about his respect for life with bloody hands.

32

Pope Francis's view on ABORTION can end all discussion on abortion!

by abiather in

defence of unborn life is closely linked to the defence of each and every other human right.

it involves the conviction that a human being is always sacred and inviolable, in any situation and at every stage of development.

human beings are ends in themselves and never a means of resolving other problems.

pacloc

Horrible comparisons are always thrown about by "Pro abortion" people. Eating junk food to death of a child?? Really. God a murderer if the child is never born, but not a murderer once the person dies in an old age? If you use that logic God murders every single human that has ever lived, so your beef is with God not with miscarriage. All that approve of killing humans are selfish and fear pain and suffering just like society wants you to. Rape victims?? How about the child victim that actually never gets to see the world. What crime did the child commit to be sentenced to death by human choice? If any of you believe in God, you recognize that you will not live forever right now, and that God is in full control of the world, including allowing the effects of original sin. It is quite a difference when God allows bad things to happen and when we humans create evil ourselves. So like the OP mentioned, the aborted child has nothing to fear, but the mothers commiting this selfish crime will have to pay for their blood with their own soul if they do not repent.

God have mercy on us all.